Leinster's Back Three options going forward

[mildlyinterested]

Leinster Back Three options - ages as of end of the season (31st May 2018)
Isa Nacewa(35) - Signed a 2 yr contract in 2016.
Rob Kearney(32) - Signed central 3 yr contract in 2015
Fergus McFadden(31) - Signed 3yr contract in 2015
Dave Kearney(28) - Signed contract in 2016
James Lowe(25) - Signed 3yr contract in 2017
Barry Daly(25) - Signed contract in 2017
Adam Byrne(24) - Signed contract in 2017
Rory O'Loughlin(24) - Signed contract in 2017.
Joey Carbery(22) - Signed contract in 2017

Ian Fitzpatrick(23) - Academy Year 4
Hugo Keenan(21) - Academy Year 2
Terry Kennedy(21) - Academy Year 2
Jordan Larmour(20) - Academy Year 2
Jack Kelly(20) - Academy Year 2
Tommy O'Brien(20) - Academy Year 1

Firstly there are the two players who are focusing on centre this season, but are options in the back three: Isa Nacewa is out of contract at the end of the season and it wouldn't surprise anyone if he retired. While Rory O'Loughlin is unlikely to be out of contract after signing a deal last season.

Only James Lowe is certainly not out of contract, although it's probably a safe assumption that Joey Carbery and Adam Byrne aren't either.

Barry Daly has already earned an extension, as has Jordan Larmour who has likely earned a development deal IMO.

The three older players are interesting: Rob Kearney is on a central deal and has struggled to stay healthy the last 12 months, presumably he will be coming off the central deal and moving onto a provincial contract with Leinster. Fergus McFadden has noticeably slowed down and is a good squad player to have around, leinster will presumably offer him a one year deal to stay around while they wait for academy players to mature. Dave Kearney has struggled for form since returning from injury, it's possible he signed a 3 year deal in 2016, i'm sure if his contract is up this season it will start to leak out soon enough as contract season kicks off.

Finally the other academy players: Ian Fitzpatrick is enjoying a healthy season to date, presumably he may get a chance at a senior appearance later in the season, but right now it would be a surprise if he was offered a development deal. Hugo Keenan is currently injured after playing Irish 7's earlier in the season, while Jack Kelly, Terry Kennedy and Tommy O'Brien have all yet to start their seasons due to injury.

At u20 level/sub academy level, Leinster have a few players who will push for academy places lead by Michael Silvester who recently played for the A team, along with Tom Roche and Peter Sullivan who should be involved with Ireland u20.

[curates_egg]

ISA
ISA
ISA

In better form than either Kearney or McFadden.

[mildlyinterested]

ISA
ISA
ISA

In better form than either Kearney or McFadden.

hasn't played in the back three once this season and as of yet there isn't any indication he will.

Also not hard to be in better form than either of those.

[curates_egg]

ISA
ISA
ISA

In better form than either Kearney or McFadden.

hasn't played in the back three once this season and as of yet there isn't any indication he will.

Also not hard to be in better form than either of those.

Where do you play Isa if Ringrose and Henshaw are fit though?
He was certainly signed for the back 3.

[mildlyinterested]

ISA
ISA
ISA

In better form than either Kearney or McFadden.

hasn't played in the back three once this season and as of yet there isn't any indication he will.

Also not hard to be in better form than either of those.

Where do you play Isa if Ringrose and Henshaw are fit though?
He was certainly signed for the back 3.

He could play in the back three, but his lack of pace is a worry there now.
Signing a player for a position and playing him there are not automatic.

[neiliog93]

Isa will be nearly 36 at the end of the season, and if he got another year for 2018-19, would be approaching 37 at the end of that season.A renewal seems improbably although he'll likely be kept on as part of the coaching staff.

Rob Kearney is out of contract too, and with his long-term injury issues, iffy form and advancing age, will likely take a pay cut in moving from a central contract to a provincial contract going forward to the 2019 world cup.

Fergus McFadden will probably get a one-year deal, handy, experienced squad player. Dave Kearney is contracted to the 2019 world cup AFAIK.

The first choice back 3 next season will likely to 15.Carbey 14.Daly 11.Lowe, with A.Byrne or O'Loughlin in the 23 jersey.

Ian Fitzpatrick probably won't be offered a Leinster contract but looking ahead to Ireland (hopefully) getting a position at the top level of the Sevens circuit and pursuing qualification for the 2020 Olympics, he'll probably get a full-time deal there. Larmour will probably get a senior deal next season such is his ability.

The other three academy back three guys (Jack Kelly, Tommy O'Brien, Terry Kennedy) are all extremely exciting talents and I expect all of them to make it in the professional game, although due to the logjam of back three players, perhaps only two of them will make it at Leinster specifically.

Looking at the sub-academy guys, Silvester is in poll position for a full academy place but given Sullivan's size and finishing prowess (and experience of playing 10/12) I wouldn't be surprised if he got one too.

[mildlyinterested]

Isa will be nearly 36 at the end of the season, and if he got another year for 2018-19, would be approaching 37 at the end of that season.A renewal seems improbably although he'll likely be kept on as part of the coaching staff.

Rob Kearney is out of contract too, and with his long-term injury issues, iffy form and advancing age, will likely take a pay cut in moving from a central contract to a provincial contract going forward to the 2019 world cup.

Fergus McFadden will probably get a one-year deal, handy, experienced squad player. Dave Kearney is contracted to the 2019 world cup AFAIK.

The first choice back 3 next season will likely to 15.Carbey 14.Daly 11.Lowe, with A.Byrne or O'Loughlin in the 23 jersey.

Ian Fitzpatrick probably won't be offered a Leinster contract but looking ahead to Ireland (hopefully) getting a position at the top level of the Sevens circuit and pursuing qualification for the 2020 Olympics, he'll probably get a full-time deal there. Larmour will probably get a senior deal next season such is his ability.

The other three academy back three guys (Jack Kelly, Tommy O'Brien, Terry Kennedy) are all extremely exciting talents and I expect all of them to make it in the professional game, although due to the logjam of back three players, perhaps only two of them will make it at Leinster specifically.

Looking at the sub-academy guys, Silvester is in poll position for a full academy place but given Sullivan's size and finishing prowess (and experience of playing 10/12) I wouldn't be surprised if he got one too.

Struggle to disagree with any of that, although you failed to mention Hugo Keenan who I think is more likely to make it at Leinster than Terry Kennedy, who will likely end up going the 7's route.

If ROL was to focus on the wing, I could see him really challenging Daly for his spot, in your project 1st choice back three, along with Larmour.

[leinsterforever]

Would it not be a bit of a wasted investment to cut Fitzpatrick after giving him a fourth year and having him improve his game by playing 7s?

But maybe he will be a core 7s player. Are they handing out contracts to the likes of Dardis and Harry McNulty now?

[mildlyinterested]

Would it not be a bit of a wasted investment to cut Fitzpatrick after giving him a fourth year and having him improve his game by playing 7s?

But maybe he will be a core 7s player. Are they handing out contracts to the likes of Dardis and Harry McNulty now?

They cut Sam Coghlan Murray after giving him a fourth year, same with Billy Dardis after giving him a development contract.

I believe the irish 7's lads have part time contracts, but open to correction.

[hugonaut]

I think we should move for Cian Kelleher – I'm not a big fan of him in terms of his personality, but he's a talented guy and it's a move back home that makes a lot of sense for us and a good bit of sense for him.

a] RK is really struggling with injury, and has been for a number of years. At 31, he's not very old – at least two fullbacks have played in RWC finals at 33 years old [Montgomery and Robinson] – but the mileage is significant.

b] The overall competition at fullback has thinned out. Zane Kirchner moved on last season, RK is continually lurching from injury to injury, and Isa is only selected there on increasingly limited occasions [11 times in 2015-16, 8 times last season, 0 times thus far this season]. Kelleher and Billy Dardis were both highly touted as fullbacks at age-grade and academy levels, but now neither of them are contracted to the province. The two big age-grade prospects after CK and BD were Jack Kelly and Conor Nash – Nash has opted for ARL and, while I accept this sounds harsh, Kelly has left me entirely underwhelmed for a guy coming in with quite a big reputation. Very redolent of Brendan Macken. We looked overstocked and well-prepared, now we look understocked and slight.

c] The guy who convinced him to move to Connacht [Pit Lim] headed off about three months into Kelleher's two year contract, and Connacht have slumped badly since winning the league in 2015-16; they've won just 10 of 28 league games since being crowned champions, and their current form of 2 wins from 7 games is dire. If you've got the option, you don't move clubs so you can play in a worse team at a lower level ... see below.

d] Kelleher is playing some good stuff, but he's playing in a limited team and a second tier competition in the Challenge Cup. He's not doing himself any favours in terms of progressing his career to further representative honours - he played for an Ireland XV against the Baabaas in May 2015 [alongside Heaslip, Rob Kearney, Toner etc.] but has stalled since then, even regressed.

e] His brother is in the academy here, and obviously both of them were Michaels players and Leinster fans through and through growing up.

James Lowe is obviously arriving pretty soon here, but for me he's a wing until he proves otherwise. Ditto with regards to the second clause there and Jordan Larmour. I think we're skinny at fullback and that this guy is a natural fullback who has enough gas at the moment to play on the wing ... much as Rob Kearney did in the first part of his career.

[mildlyinterested]

Been something I've heard floated before, I wouldn't be against the move.
Haven't seen much of him this season, although he seems to primarily be playing wing for Connacht.

[the spoofer]

Hopefully he has matured. He nearly missed out on a Leinster academy place because of his attitude.

[OTT]

c] The guy who convinced him to move to Connacht [Pit Lim] headed off about three months into Kelleher's two year contract, and Connacht have slumped badly since winning the league in 2015-16; they've won just 10 of 28 league games since being crowned champions, and their current form of 2 wins from 7 games is dire. If you've got the option, you don't move clubs so you can play in a worse team at a lower level ... see below.

All your other points make sense from a Leinster perspective but this one to me is the most salient one. If Kelleher was to bail on Connacht would he not be showing again that he does not have the stomach for the fight. He was not happy to work for a full Leinster contract the first time around maybe it is time that he rolled up his sleeves and helped get Connacht up the table. It had to have been a talking point about the character of the guy when he left after signing the development contract within Leinster, I don't see how bailing from a struggling team only a couple of years later would sell yourself to people like Leo, Girv and Mick Dawson who bleed blue. I am not one of these people who hate on players who leave Leinster prematurely like Conway, Ronan etc. but I do think they made their bed so should lie in it. Back the young guys who we are investing time and money in and who want to fight for the right to play for Leinster.

[Oldschool]

Kelleher signing for Leinster would be a big leap in faith by Leinster. There's no evidence to justify that kind of faith.

[leinsterforever]

It does look as if options at fullback will be a bit thin - if they aren't already - but I'm not sure Kelleher is the answer. It seems to me that he's a much more natural wing (and Leinster have loads of those in the wider squad atm). It would have made more sense to sign a fullback than Lowe, but that's neither here nor there. I think you might as well deploy DK at 15 until a promising player worth backing emerges.

It's good if the 15 has outhalf-style creative ability to bring others into play. I'd like to see Kelly go off and play 7s for a bit to develop the vision and passing parts of his game. I read somewhere a player makes 30-50 passes in a weekend of 7s games. That amount of passing practice has got to accelerate the development of a player's capability in this area.

[mildlyinterested]

I'd want all our outside backs playing some 7's if possible.

Anyway Leinster have their long term 1st choice 15 in Carbery IMO.

[dropkick]

Slightly off topic but I had a look at Saracens' match away to Northampton the other day and it finished 13-57 to Saracens. One thing that stood out for me is besides they play better attacking rugby than given credit for, their back 3 are not very fast.


Alex Goode, Liam Williams and Chris Wyles are not speedsters but other parts of their game more than make up for it. Thats not to say they're slow but I don't think speed is a priority for Saracens when signing back 3 players. It looks like they go for players with good all round ability and who makes few mistakes. You could say they're a microcosm of the Saracens squad.


Just thought I'd mention it since player speed was being talked about the other week on the Barry Daly thread.

[mildlyinterested]

Slightly off topic but I had a look at Saracens' match away to Northampton the other day and it finished 13-57 to Saracens. One thing that stood out for me is besides they play better attacking rugby than given credit for, their back 3 are not very fast.


Alex Goode, Liam Williams and Chris Wyles are not speedsters but other parts of their game more than make up for it. Thats not to say they're slow but I don't think speed is a priority for Saracens when signing back 3 players. It looks like they go for players with good all round ability and who makes few mistakes. You could say they're a microcosm of the Saracens squad.


Just thought I'd mention it since player speed was being talked about the other week on the Barry Daly thread.

Not too different to Leinster a few years back..

Or even now, I wouldn't consider most of leinster's back three to be speed merchants.

[neiliog93]

Didn't Kelleher clash with Leo? Personality issues and negative previous experience might prevent any kind of move, a la Marty Moore.

Re. the sevens, my understanding is that if we did qualify for the top level circuit, guys would necessarily be full-time pros, at least for the months that the circuit runs.

[Oldschool]

It does look as if options at fullback will be a bit thin - if they aren't already - but I'm not sure Kelleher is the answer. It seems to me that he's a much more natural wing (and Leinster have loads of those in the wider squad atm). It would have made more sense to sign a fullback than Lowe, but that's neither here nor there. I think you might as well deploy DK at 15 until a promising player worth backing emerges.

It's good if the 15 has outhalf-style creative ability to bring others into play. I'd like to see Kelly go off and play 7s for a bit to develop the vision and passing parts of his game. I read somewhere a player makes 30-50 passes in a weekend of 7s games. That amount of passing practice has got to accelerate the development of a player's capability in this area.

Sounds like a cure for Luke McGrath.
Would a spell of sevens help Adam Byrne's defence issues?