And again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again until people realise JGP is the David Fairclough of scrumhalves and again and again and again and again and againpaddyor wrote:Ah here, It's something that's going to come up again and again. That's what this place is for.CiaranIrl wrote:You would think "Leinster's Halfback Options going forward" from three days ago would be a good place, but no, 0 replies. Better to infect every other thread instead.simonokeeffe wrote:Can we have a special thread for discussing which of McGrath or JGP is the devil incarnate?
Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
Scrumhalf Day.
The forum has the debate every week until either McGrath or JGP play the perfect game (includes pointing).
The forum has the debate every week until either McGrath or JGP play the perfect game (includes pointing).
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
It's all MOC's fault for not playing Madigan at 9paddyor wrote:Scrumhalf Day.
The forum has the debate every week until either McGrath or JGP play the perfect game (includes pointing).
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
If do right, no can defense.Dave Cahill wrote:Peter O'Mahoney.
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
Nigel wasn't very amenable to Peter's captain chat, when he was trying to prevent his pal Conway getting red carded for pole-axing Jack Carty with an flying elbow to the jaw. He gave him short shrift, I can tell you!!!paddyor wrote:Dave Cahill wrote:Peter O'Mahoney.
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Yeah but makes up for it with pointing and shoelace tying etc. Dog I believe it's called.
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
Really nice win for us. Great try by Larmour. I dont think Ive seen Dev Toner have a better game, he is really going in the right direction now.
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
You were listening to me and the Da talking earlier were you? That's pretty much what we were saying. He really impressed us. He's a lot of games played and his dip in form last year was disappointing but he's back as the cornerstone of the Irish packLeRouxIsPHat wrote: Dev is nearly back to his best too. He missed a couple of tackles but his workrate was phenomenal again. At one stage Leavy was very slow to get back in the line and Dev sprinted into the position he should have been occupying. Might sound like a small thing but his hunger to defend is extraordinary, it was the same when he seemed on a personal mission to stop Nadolo.
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Obviously if he were to be talked of as a leader he should have shouted "get up Danny, we need you in the line". But maybe that will come in time.
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
Pointing lessons also requiredfourthirtythree wrote:You were listening to me and the Da talking earlier were you? That's pretty much what we were saying. He really impressed us. He's a lot of games played and his dip in form last year was disappointing but he's back as the cornerstone of the Irish packLeRouxIsPHat wrote: Dev is nearly back to his best too. He missed a couple of tackles but his workrate was phenomenal again. At one stage Leavy was very slow to get back in the line and Dev sprinted into the position he should have been occupying. Might sound like a small thing but his hunger to defend is extraordinary, it was the same when he seemed on a personal mission to stop Nadolo.
.
Obviously if he were to be talked of as a leader he should have shouted "get up Danny, we need you in the line". But maybe that will come in time.
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
No...son.fourthirtythree wrote:You were listening to me and the Da talking earlier were you? That's pretty much what we were saying.LeRouxIsPHat wrote: Dev is nearly back to his best too. He missed a couple of tackles but his workrate was phenomenal again. At one stage Leavy was very slow to get back in the line and Dev sprinted into the position he should have been occupying. Might sound like a small thing but his hunger to defend is extraordinary, it was the same when he seemed on a personal mission to stop Nadolo.
.
Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:No...son.fourthirtythree wrote:You were listening to me and the Da talking earlier were you? That's pretty much what we were saying.LeRouxIsPHat wrote: Dev is nearly back to his best too. He missed a couple of tackles but his workrate was phenomenal again. At one stage Leavy was very slow to get back in the line and Dev sprinted into the position he should have been occupying. Might sound like a small thing but his hunger to defend is extraordinary, it was the same when he seemed on a personal mission to stop Nadolo.
.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
I knew you posted on here. Listen, I'm good for the loan. Okay?LeRouxIsPHat wrote:No...son.fourthirtythree wrote:You were listening to me and the Da talking earlier were you? That's pretty much what we were saying.LeRouxIsPHat wrote: Dev is nearly back to his best too. He missed a couple of tackles but his workrate was phenomenal again. At one stage Leavy was very slow to get back in the line and Dev sprinted into the position he should have been occupying. Might sound like a small thing but his hunger to defend is extraordinary, it was the same when he seemed on a personal mission to stop Nadolo.
.
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
He'll never be as good a lineout option as POM lads.Oldschoolsocks wrote:Pointing lessons also requiredfourthirtythree wrote:You were listening to me and the Da talking earlier were you? That's pretty much what we were saying. He really impressed us. He's a lot of games played and his dip in form last year was disappointing but he's back as the cornerstone of the Irish packLeRouxIsPHat wrote: Dev is nearly back to his best too. He missed a couple of tackles but his workrate was phenomenal again. At one stage Leavy was very slow to get back in the line and Dev sprinted into the position he should have been occupying. Might sound like a small thing but his hunger to defend is extraordinary, it was the same when he seemed on a personal mission to stop Nadolo.
.
Obviously if he were to be talked of as a leader he should have shouted "get up Danny, we need you in the line". But maybe that will come in time.
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
On those figures- watched it again this morning with those ESPN tackle stats in mind. I honestly can’t find 4 missed tackles in JGP’s performance. Actually I could hardly find a blatant one at all. If ESPN is counting his failure (with Ross) to stop Reidy’s try from a metre- I think that’s a bit harsh. The only other ‘missed tackle’ that was of note is the semi-bump by Marshall around 45 minutes. The latter was at close quarters and the Ulster man was felled instantly by another anyway. Can’t see another two MTs.paddyor wrote:On ESPN and ultimate rugby.i can't think of many players who walk away from 4 turnovers, 4 missed tackles and 2 botched tries with a favourable review.artaneboy wrote:What!! That’s not my memory of his tackle count. But I’ll look at it again on the recording tonight and come back to you one way or the other on it.paddyor wrote:1 tackle made, 4 missed......but he's a great passer a lot of the time.
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This is not about the eternal SH debate- it’s more in the utility of such stats. I’m sure it could be said that some of the favourable figures are flattering. Are ESPN and others measuring what matters, is the “granularity” (if that’s what they call it) at the correct level?
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
Gotta say I'm hugely impressed by Dev's return to form too. He was very poor at the end of last season, but has really come into for again.
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
He and Ruddock - two perpetual unsung heroes - are my players of the season so far.wixfjord wrote:Gotta say I'm hugely impressed by Dev's return to form too. He was very poor at the end of last season, but has really come into for again.
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
I wouldn't rely on those stats too heavily. Probably one or two people watching the match and clicking a player every time there's a tackle or missed tackle (among other stats). Easy enough to make a mistake / not be certain who made the tackle, and also depends on that person's view of what classifies a 'missed tackle'artaneboy wrote:On those figures- watched it again this morning with those ESPN tackle stats in mind. I honestly can’t find 4 missed tackles in JGP’s performance. Actually I could hardly find a blatant one at all. If ESPN is counting his failure (with Ross) to stop Reidy’s try from a metre- I think that’s a bit harsh. The only other ‘missed tackle’ that was of note is the semi-bump by Marshall around 45 minutes. The latter was at close quarters and the Ulster man was felled instantly by another anyway. Can’t see another two MTs.paddyor wrote:On ESPN and ultimate rugby.i can't think of many players who walk away from 4 turnovers, 4 missed tackles and 2 botched tries with a favourable review.artaneboy wrote: What!! That’s not my memory of his tackle count. But I’ll look at it again on the recording tonight and come back to you one way or the other on it.
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This is not about the eternal SH debate- it’s more in the utility of such stats. I’m sure it could be said that some of the favourable figures are flattering. Are ESPN and others measuring what matters, is the “granularity” (if that’s what they call it) at the correct level?
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
hell yes to bothcurates_egg wrote:He and Ruddock - two perpetual unsung heroes - are my players of the season so far.wixfjord wrote:Gotta say I'm hugely impressed by Dev's return to form too. He was very poor at the end of last season, but has really come into for again.
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again though it's such a shame Ryan went off, if he had have stayed on for the game he would have had a big claim on Ireland no19
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
Upon watching it again, I take back what I said about JGP's crossfield kick. We had no backline to speak of and no shape, the nearest player to JGP's right was Dev about 10m away and he was still running so not well placed to take a pass and Jack seemed to be the next guy outside him but he was miles away too, so the kick was actually a good option. Also think that Stockdale had him on the angle after the kick through so he was right to pass, although he offside in the first place.
Even more impressed with Adam, Larmour, and Stockdale on the rewatch. They all showed great feet and confidence under pressure and were able to get on the front foot when it looked impossible. Great to see Bowe playing well again too.
Ulster fans really do boo everything, although I think they may have had a point after Luke's first try, SOB's pass clearly forward IMO. The number of high tackles they got away with was ridiculous though, don't know what the officials were at.
Even more impressed with Adam, Larmour, and Stockdale on the rewatch. They all showed great feet and confidence under pressure and were able to get on the front foot when it looked impossible. Great to see Bowe playing well again too.
Ulster fans really do boo everything, although I think they may have had a point after Luke's first try, SOB's pass clearly forward IMO. The number of high tackles they got away with was ridiculous though, don't know what the officials were at.
Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
On those figures- watched it again this morning with those ESPN tackle stats in mind. I honestly can’t find 4 missed tackles in JGP’s performance. Actually I could hardly find a blatant one at all. If ESPN is counting his failure (with Ross) to stop Reidy’s try from a metre- I think that’s a bit harsh. The only other ‘missed tackle’ that was of note is the semi-bump by Marshall around 45 minutes. The latter was at close quarters and the Ulster man was felled instantly by another anyway. Can’t see another two MTs.artaneboy wrote: On ESPN and ultimate rugby.i can't think of many players who walk away from 4 turnovers, 4 missed tackles and 2 botched tries with a favourable review.
This is not about the eternal SH debate- it’s more in the utility of such stats. I’m sure it could be said that some of the favourable figures are flattering. Are ESPN and others measuring what matters, is the “granularity” (if that’s what they call it) at the correct level?
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Are you for real? You find 2 missed tackles, dismiss them and then question the metohdology.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Ulster vs Leinster: Saturday 28th, 18.30 (BBC & Sky)
Are you for real? You find 2 missed tackles, dismiss them and then question the metohdology.[/quote]paddyor wrote:On those figures- watched it again this morning with those ESPN tackle stats in mind. I honestly can’t find 4 missed tackles in JGP’s performance. Actually I could hardly find a blatant one at all. If ESPN is counting his failure (with Ross) to stop Reidy’s try from a metre- I think that’s a bit harsh. The only other ‘missed tackle’ that was of note is the semi-bump by Marshall around 45 minutes. The latter was at close quarters and the Ulster man was felled instantly by another anyway. Can’t see another two MTs.artaneboy wrote: On ESPN and ultimate rugby.i can't think of many players who walk away from 4 turnovers, 4 missed tackles and 2 botched tries with a favourable review.
This is not about the eternal SH debate- it’s more in the utility of such stats. I’m sure it could be said that some of the favourable figures are flattering. Are ESPN and others measuring what matters, is the “granularity” (if that’s what they call it) at the correct level?
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Yes- I'm for real in finding just half (2) of the total documented missed tackles- and in those I did note, not seeing them as being what I would regard as classical/ obvious missed tackles. There may be four missed tackles- but I neither noted that number at the time live- nor on re-watching the recording. So, yes- I do question the methodology on that basis- not just in the case of JGP, but more generally if this is how we partly judge players. Now maybe I missed the tackles- and I'm happy to accept that if it's pointed out to me where they are on the tape. Feel free if you wish. But in any case my OVERALL view remains that JGP played pretty well (some errors, of course) - and nothing on the tape changed that view- as of now.
So, while I certainly don't discount stats, I'm not a data/ 'money ball' zealot and I like to have claims based on those metric sources explained to me, where I have trouble observing it in the actual play. That is my focus here- the definitions of stat actions, not the eternal Luke/ Jamison debate.
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