Tackling

[curates_egg]

As I was watching us again waving people through on Saturday - and listen to Sky Sports drone on about it - I started to wonder if it is intentional. Or, rather, if there is an approach that some tackles are not THAT important to make.
There has been a lot written about how the new rules are leading to more ball in play and more injuries. I was wondering if we have some devious ploy to make only the necessary tackles, so as to avoid too much physical load.
I know that is a pretty crazy tinfoil theory...and I was happy to keep it to myself...but here is an interesting article in the Telegraph on our missed tackles stats:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/ ... ed-tackle/

[blockhead]

Could ye cut and paste this article on here egg.

[curates_egg]

I will with a caveat of apologies to mods if it breaks forum rules...and a warning that it is an article filled with pictures to explain examples, so it doesn't make full sense copy pasted.
...and a brief summary of my own in case they delete the main article posted below the stars.
Long story shorter: rush chaos defence in their half and between our 22 and halfway, structured defence in our 22. We may leak line breaks but we have a good scramble defence and good structure in the 22 when needed. The aggressive defensive strategy in the other 75% of the pitch creates attacking chances out of defence.

*********************************************************


After six rounds of the Pro 14, Leinster have completed 85.9 per cent of the tackles they have attempted, according to Opta. Across the competition, only fast, loose South African franchise the Cheetahs - with 84 per cent - are sitting on a lower figure.

This pattern has carried over into the Champions Cup. During their victory over Montpellier, the Dublin province missed 34 tackles. On Saturday in Scotland, while picking up a second consecutive bonus-point win to top pool three, they returned a completion rate of 83 per cent.

Without context, these statistics might bring cause for alarm. But critics should dig deeper. Only Scarlets and Glasgow Warriors have conceded fewer then the 10 tries Leinster have leaked in the Pro 14 to date. Two excellent results in Europe have hinged on flinty, determined defence that has produced some vital turnovers.

Stuart Lancaster, who arrived 13 months ago to replace Kurt McQuilkin, can take a great deal of credit for this. Helped by the fact that many Leinster players also work alongside Andy Farrell in the Ireland set-up, he has imparted very similar principles to those that shaped his England tenure.

Tidy structure is sacrificed for line-speed in an aggressive, ‘messy’ system. Pressing from out to in, players aim to channel carriers back inside towards heavy-hitting forwards who can bully the gain-line and target turnovers.

If and when the line is broken, as it was by the intuitive Warriors on a few occasions at the weekend, manic scramble defence is non-negotiable. Then, after the attacking side crosses the 22 and there is less back-field space to worry about, the intensity ratchets up another notch.

It is a strategy of coordinated chaos that works. For all their pretty approach play, Glasgow only scored two tries in a 34-18 defeat - and the first of these sneaked in by the length of a moulded stud on Stuart Hogg’s sole.

Here are two passages that illustrate how missed tackle statistics, when considered in isolation, can be misleading. Leinster’s defence is serving its purpose.

[First example is difficult to copy paste...below is the second example but it doesn't make total sense without all the photos]

Push up, scramble back

Andy Farrell outlines his desire for turnovers by urging his teams to think of ‘try-scoring defence’. After landing another try early in the second period on Sunday, Leinster have Glasgow where they want them - chasing the game.

We pick up the action from another wide ruck with Ali Price once more locating Finn Russell. The spacing between Leinster’s defenders is initially uneven. Their line is littered with ‘dog-legs’.

However, this is an occupational hazard of prioritising line-speed and can often mean that tackles are missed in midfield - that is to say, a carrier might bypass an individual defender but is often enveloped by another one.

Robbie Henshaw, who is leading the press here, was (dis)credited with five missed tackles against Glasgow, for instance:

Russell shapes to pass but instead puts boot to ball as Leinster’s defenders swarm forward. A shallow chip, reminiscent of the one Ruaridh Jackson pulled off against Exeter Chiefs, forces wing Dave Kearney to turn on the Leinster edge:



This system, as Lancaster stressed while in charge of England, demands a great deal of wingers. They must strive to shut down space but also be able to read body language and dart back to cover kicks. Kearney swivels quickly here, and chases back to shut down Peter Horne - the recipient of Russell’s kick-pass.

Note also that Henshaw is tracking back to block off the supporting Warriors centre Sam Johnson and that scrum-half Luke McGrath is circling around too:

[OTT]

I do think this is how we try to defend. It is how Ireland try and defend. I think the high number of missed tackles is not part of the plan though. We are rushing up and letting guys through where we should be stopping them.

The best example I can think of off my head was in the second half yesterday we rushed up, they were well behind the gainline we had caused 'panic' but they slipped through Sexton and Reid (it was Johnny's man) ran half the pitch to our 22 and would have been in for a try if Sexton had not have managed to chase back and get a tackle in. That is the system failing imo. Last season in both the first half of Ireland against Scotland and Leinster against Clermont the system failed. Both those games the failure left us with to much to do.

They always say defence is about trust, it is very hard for Leinster to gain that trust/momentum when we have chopped and changed every week. Add to that we have been reliant on guys who are considered by most to be bad defenders like Reid and A. Byrne. I know Reid picked it up a lot last season but the cult following he gained on here for making his tackles tells a lot about where he came from. Ringrose for the most part last season led our rush defence and we have missed him a lot in that regard so far this season. We play a very dangerous game without the ball and when it goes wrong it can be nasty and leads to a hell of a lot of metres coughed up like in the Cheetahs match.

So yeah tackles missed might be a bit higher because of the way we defend but missing 30 or more is because we are failing at what we are trying to do imo.

[arsebiscuits1]

Good read.

It only properly clicked for me there at the weekend what this article implies, missing tackles doesn't tell the whole picture. It couldn't

People love to mention (including me) that only Cheetahs and Kings have worse defensive stats, but looking at it now, they have conceded 29 and 31 tries respectively, an average of 5 per game.

Leinster on the other hand have conceded 10. Literally a third of their tally.

I would be interested to see missed tackle stats compared to tries conceded.

Also while 2 games is not an overly good pool to base a theory on, only Wasps, Bath, Scarlets and Munster have conceded fewer tries than us in Europe. And we have scored more than any of them

[Xanthippe]

[simonokeeffe]

Excellent work Xan

If Im interpreting this right, except for us the bad teams who miss as many tackles as us concede way more tries but the good teams who make the most tackles also concede the least tries, so we are a complete outlier

Maybe difference is the teams getting pasted are conceding off pushovers, maulsetc where there are no tackles to be missed?

[Ruckedtobits]

Great Stats table @Xanthippe. Scarlets & Glasgow comparable stats to us with Munster also alongside. The Telegraph article may have something. However, we are also missing more tackles than last year. A high press "chaos" defence provides too many players with a 'get out of jail card' for missing a one-on-one in mid-field.

[Oldschool]

Without mentioning names or even wanting to they are other factors.
1. Who has missed the most tackles. How often have the high tackle missers played in the same team?
2. Team selection and player availability or even unit availability eg centre pairing.
3. Players playing out of position usually due to necessity (injuries)
4. Related to 3, squad depth in each position.

[hugonaut]

Most of the worst offenders are who you'd expect them to be: young backs. And Reider.

Not an exhaustive list below, but the first five I looked up:

Noel Reid - 41 made/17 missed [58 attempted] - 29% missed
Adam Byrne - 18/9 [27] - 33% missed
Ross Byrne - 36/11 [47] - 23% missed
Joey Carberry - 11/5 [16] - 31% missed
Rory O'Loughlin - 52/18 [70] - 25% missed

[blockhead]

Most of the worst offenders are who you'd expect them to be: young backs. And Reider.

Not an exhaustive list below, but the first five I looked up:

Noel Reid - 41 made/17 missed [58 attempted] - 29% missed
Adam Byrne - 18/9 [27] - 33% missed
Ross Byrne - 36/11 [47] - 23% missed
Joey Carberry - 11/5 [16] - 31% missed
Rory O'Loughlin - 52/18 [70] - 25% missed

That's actually quite worrying, is it not.
The kids can't tackle.

[paddyor]

Most of the worst offenders are who you'd expect them to be: young backs. And Reider.

Not an exhaustive list below, but the first five I looked up:

Noel Reid - 41 made/17 missed [58 attempted] - 29% missed
Adam Byrne - 18/9 [27] - 33% missed
Ross Byrne - 36/11 [47] - 23% missed
Joey Carberry - 11/5 [16] - 31% missed
Rory O'Loughlin - 52/18 [70] - 25% missed

That's actually quite worrying, is it not.
The kids can't tackle.

I'm sure you'll find similar stats for other players when they start out.

[arsebiscuits1]

http://www.the42.ie/noel-reid-leinster- ... 0-Oct2017/

Interesting quote from Reid here:

On his tackling, Reid added that it’s something he’s continually working on.

“I suppose I’m just working with John [Fogarty] during the week and that’s the main thing and then doing your scout on individual players who have the ability to beat you in a tackle before a match. Just bring that into the game and try and be as successful in the tackle as possible."

Is Fogs the defence coach now?

[mildlyinterested]

http://www.the42.ie/noel-reid-leinster- ... 0-Oct2017/

Interesting quote from Reid here:

On his tackling, Reid added that it’s something he’s continually working on.

“I suppose I’m just working with John [Fogarty] during the week and that’s the main thing and then doing your scout on individual players who have the ability to beat you in a tackle before a match. Just bring that into the game and try and be as successful in the tackle as possible."

Is Fogs the defence coach now?

I'm sure he has multiple coaching responsibilities along with being "scrum coach"

I'd say lancaster installed the defensive system, while another coach probably works with players on tackle tech etc.

[the spoofer]

http://www.the42.ie/noel-reid-leinster- ... 0-Oct2017/

Interesting quote from Reid here:

On his tackling, Reid added that it’s something he’s continually working on.

“I suppose I’m just working with John [Fogarty] during the week and that’s the main thing and then doing your scout on individual players who have the ability to beat you in a tackle before a match. Just bring that into the game and try and be as successful in the tackle as possible."

Is Fogs the defence coach now?

The interesting thing for me is that it looks like the journo used Xans chart for his story!

[simonokeeffe]

http://www.the42.ie/noel-reid-leinster- ... 0-Oct2017/

Interesting quote from Reid here:

On his tackling, Reid added that it’s something he’s continually working on.

“I suppose I’m just working with John [Fogarty] during the week and that’s the main thing and then doing your scout on individual players who have the ability to beat you in a tackle before a match. Just bring that into the game and try and be as successful in the tackle as possible."

Is Fogs the defence coach now?

The interesting thing for me is that it looks like the journo used Xans chart for his story!

they take ideas and things from here more than you'd care to imagine

[molloyjh]

It's worth noting in all of this that we are the 3rd best defence in the league despite the stats. Despite being probably the most disrupted team in the league up to now too. 3rd lowest points conceded and joint 3rd lowest tries conceded. And in Europe we've gone up against 2 very good sides, with completely different modus operandi and with a somewhat depleted squad and only conceded 2 tries in each game. Only Wasps, Munster, Bath and Scarlets have conceded less tries than us. And none of those have faced the quality of opposition we have.

That's not to say that we shouldn't be looking to improve there, but given the way some have been framing the issue it really isn't costing us relative to what the stats are saying.

[riocard911]

It's worth noting in all of this that we are the 3rd best defence in the league despite the stats. Despite being probably the most disrupted team in the league up to now too. 3rd lowest points conceded and joint 3rd lowest tries conceded. And in Europe we've gone up against 2 very good sides, with completely different modus operandi and with a somewhat depleted squad and only conceded 2 tries in each game. Only Wasps, Munster, Bath and Scarlets have conceded less tries than us. And none of those have faced the quality of opposition we have.

That's not to say that we shouldn't be looking to improve there, but given the way some have been framing the issue it really isn't costing us relative to what the stats are saying.

Éist! Éist!!!

[ronk]

There have been some high profile line breaks but mostly I’ve been getting the impression that a lot of the missed tackles are arm tackles on players going sideways. They do enough to evade but are swallowed up without damage.

If the system holds it allows people to try low percentage tackles without risking much.

[curates_egg]

There is - what looks like - a really interesting article on Exeter from Stuart Barnes in the Times.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/spor ... -gsv0xcbm7
It's pay-walled, so I have only read excerpts, but the crux of it seems to be that Exeter's game plan focuses on them having lots of possession and phases, which aims to wear the opposition defence down.
It seems like one of the worst type of systems our type of defence could come up against.

I'm posting here mainly because there doesn't seem to be a champions' cup opponents thread this year - mods, please correct if wrong. However, I do think there is a link to our system.