Leinster's 2nd Row options

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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby hugonaut » April 9th, 2018, 10:05 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Ha I'd see things very differently RTB. Molony is underpowered for sure, but I'd be more inclined to get him back to what he was like a couple of years ago where he had great feet before contact and really good hands. Trying to put on weight last year seemed to mess him up completely, and while I think he's got the balance a bit more right this season, he's still been very mixed and some way short of his best form from a couple of seasons back IMO. I'd be delighted if he got back to those levels week in week out for us. Maybe he can put on weight over time and bring everything together, but if he can't then I hope we don't waste time making him into something he's not.

He seems to have got his defensive mojo back which is great (went through a spell of over reading things and being done on the inside), but I'm not too bothered about his carrying tbh. He's a very willing carrier and if he keeps popping up just to set up rucks then I'm fine with that as long as we have better carriers elsewhere in the pack. I certainly don't think we suffered in the tight when he was lighter a couple of seasons ago.

I did think he could become an international quite quickly after he first broke through (which had a lot to do with our lack of options at the time) but obviously that hasn't happened/is unlikely to any time soon, but am still confident he'll be very good for Leinster. Fast forward to after the World Cup and he'll be a 25 year old with a mountain of playing and captaincy experience, not a bad place to be and hard to believe he won't have improved a fair bit by then.


Glad we're seeing the same things LRIP!

His tackling has got a lot better this season. He was missing tackles like crazy last year and was all over the place defensively, the worst of the second rows by a long, long distance.

Ross can pass and handle and there's a potential role for him in certain situations as the Aly Muldowney type distributor in the middle of the pitch. He's a bright guy with good rugby intelligence, so it's something he could do well. He's got to be more effective at the breakdown though – he's 111kg after all, he's not a shrimp.

The reason I think he'll be a regular Leinster captain is informed by the supposition that he won't be a regular international. For example, Leo only started 6 test matches in his second [2007-2014] stint with Leinster. Being available for selection and unconstrained by international minutes is a big deal for Leinster ... so many of our players are regular features in Irish match-day 23s. I don't necessarily think Molony is going to be THE club captain like Leo or Isa, but I think he'll be in the leadership group for a long time and will play a lot of games for us.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby mildlyinterested » April 16th, 2018, 1:09 pm

9 carries for 1 metre doesn't make pretty reading for Molony at the weekend.

Let's not talk about Nagle or Kearney though.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby curates_egg » April 16th, 2018, 2:04 pm

mildlyinterested wrote:9 carries for 1 metre doesn't make pretty reading for Molony at the weekend.

Let's not talk about Nagle or Kearney though.


You could find similar stats for O'Mahony for Ireland. It is not a problem in itself.
First up carriers don't need to be making many yards, if they tie in defenders and present clean ball.
If he was dominating lineouts and bossing rucks, or making up to 20 tackles, you could make a case for overlooking it.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby mildlyinterested » April 16th, 2018, 2:13 pm

curates_egg wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:9 carries for 1 metre doesn't make pretty reading for Molony at the weekend.

Let's not talk about Nagle or Kearney though.


You could find similar stats for O'Mahony for Ireland. It is not a problem in itself.
First up carriers don't need to be making many yards, if they tie in defenders and present clean ball.
If he was dominating lineouts and bossing rucks, or making up to 20 tackles, you could make a case for overlooking it.


9 carries for 1 metre is poor no matter what the context.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby curates_egg » April 16th, 2018, 2:22 pm

mildlyinterested wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:9 carries for 1 metre doesn't make pretty reading for Molony at the weekend.

Let's not talk about Nagle or Kearney though.


You could find similar stats for O'Mahony for Ireland. It is not a problem in itself.
First up carriers don't need to be making many yards, if they tie in defenders and present clean ball.
If he was dominating lineouts and bossing rucks, or making up to 20 tackles, you could make a case for overlooking it.


9 carries for 1 metre is poor no matter what the context.


It doesn't matter if the player is a ligend :D

Seriously though, POC spent years with stats like that. POM is currently making carrying stats like that (e.g. 7 carries, 1 metre vs England).
Don't think you could argue they are poor players.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby mildlyinterested » April 16th, 2018, 2:26 pm

curates_egg wrote:
It doesn't matter if the player is a ligend :D

Seriously though, POC spent years with stats like that. POM is currently making carrying stats like that (e.g. 7 carries, 1 metre vs England).
Don't think you could argue they are poor players.


where'd I argue Molony was a poor player?
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby curates_egg » April 16th, 2018, 2:29 pm

mildlyinterested wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
It doesn't matter if the player is a ligend :D

Seriously though, POC spent years with stats like that. POM is currently making carrying stats like that (e.g. 7 carries, 1 metre vs England).
Don't think you could argue they are poor players.


where'd I argue Molony was a poor player?


Where'd I argue you argued Molony was a poor player?

You argue the carrying stats at the weekend for Molony don't "make pretty reading".

I would argue carrying stats - in isolation - are not that instructive. I used POM and POC as examples of players who prove this.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby mildlyinterested » April 16th, 2018, 2:39 pm

curates_egg wrote:
You argue the carrying stats at the weekend for Molony don't "make pretty reading".

I would argue carrying stats - in isolation - are not that instructive. I used POM and POC as examples of players who prove this.


Thanks.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby dropkick » April 17th, 2018, 5:07 pm

Molony is being damned with faint praise when people say he'll be a good option when the internationals are away. I get their point but realistically isn't it just saying he'll never be an Irish international or a least a regular international?


Quinn Roux is a favourite of Schmidt simply because of his size. Lock is probably the one position where size matters most and unless a player has some other outstanding attributes their size deficiency will be more pronounced.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby CiaranIrl » April 17th, 2018, 5:55 pm

The consigning of Moloney to the scrap heap is completely ridiculous. Decreeing that a 23 year old lock is just a squad player that will never reach top level makes no rational sense whatsoever. If you do do a search of old threads from ~10 years ago, you'll find that there is the exact same stuff there about Devin Toner. There are even comments from some people in one thread that 'we don't need him anymore now that we have signed Galarza'. That one worked out swimmingly, didn't it?

Maybe we should all cool the jets on the prophecy front when we're talking about young tight 5 players. Mick Kearney on the other hand - he's 4 years older. I'm very unsure if that's going to work out for us.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby neiliog93 » April 17th, 2018, 6:03 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:The consigning of Moloney to the scrap heap is completely ridiculous. Decreeing that a 23 year old lock is just a squad player that will never reach top level makes no rational sense whatsoever. If you do do a search of old threads from ~10 years ago, you'll find that there is the exact same stuff there about Devin Toner. There are even comments from some people in one thread that 'we don't need him anymore now that we have signed Galarza'. That one worked out swimmingly, didn't it?

Maybe we should all cool the jets on the prophecy front when we're talking about young tight 5 players. Mick Kearney on the other hand - he's 4 years older. I'm very unsure if that's going to work out for us.


Dev is 6'10"/6'11", Molony is an optimistic 6'6". Players these days also mature much earlier than before because of better strength and conditioning programmes from a young age (especially from Michael's). Molony might get capped by Ireland when we're in need but he just isn't big or athletic enough to be a top level international second row. He'll be a fine Pro 14 player for Leinster who gets buckets of caps for Leinster and can do a job in the Champions' Cup when required. That's absolutely fine by me, but it's not ridiculous to think otherwise (also, he's nearly 24).
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby CiaranIrl » April 17th, 2018, 6:23 pm

neiliog93 wrote:
CiaranIrl wrote:The consigning of Moloney to the scrap heap is completely ridiculous. Decreeing that a 23 year old lock is just a squad player that will never reach top level makes no rational sense whatsoever. If you do do a search of old threads from ~10 years ago, you'll find that there is the exact same stuff there about Devin Toner. There are even comments from some people in one thread that 'we don't need him anymore now that we have signed Galarza'. That one worked out swimmingly, didn't it?

Maybe we should all cool the jets on the prophecy front when we're talking about young tight 5 players. Mick Kearney on the other hand - he's 4 years older. I'm very unsure if that's going to work out for us.


Dev is 6'10"/6'11", Molony is an optimistic 6'6". Players these days also mature much earlier than before because of better strength and conditioning programmes from a young age (especially from Michael's). Molony might get capped by Ireland when we're in need but he just isn't big or athletic enough to be a top level international second row. He'll be a fine Pro 14 player for Leinster who gets buckets of caps for Leinster and can do a job in the Champions' Cup when required. That's absolutely fine by me, but it's not ridiculous to think otherwise (also, he's nearly 24).


Ah come on, how is 6'6 not tall enough? He's taller than all three England locks for starters - Launchbury, Kruis & Itoje. He'll get bigger and more physical over time too. He might make it, he might not - but at 23, it's ridiculous to write him off.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby neiliog93 » April 17th, 2018, 6:57 pm

No he isn't, Kruis is 199 cm (6'6'.5") and Launchbury is 198 cm (6'6"). They're also considerably heavier than him and much better athletes. Maro gets away with being 6'5" because half the time he's in the back row and he's a freakish athlete. If you're 6'6" or less in the second row, you NEED to be heavy and a very good athlete to survive at international level. If you're 6'7"+, you can get away with being a bit less athletic/physically heavy set. Molony doesn't have size or athleticism.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby CiaranIrl » April 17th, 2018, 7:29 pm

neiliog93 wrote:No he isn't, Kruis is 199 cm (6'6'.5") and Launchbury is 198 cm (6'6"). They're also considerably heavier than him and much better athletes. Maro gets away with being 6'5" because half the time he's in the back row and he's a freakish athlete. If you're 6'6" or less in the second row, you NEED to be heavy and a very good athlete to survive at international level. If you're 6'7"+, you can get away with being a bit less athletic/physically heavy set. Molony doesn't have size or athleticism.


Ok, so he's the same height as them, fine. AND he's younger by three or four years. So give him time.

I can't believe I'm on a Leinster fan forum and I'm on my own arguing with people that he shouldn't be thrown on the scrap heap at 23.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby neiliog93 » April 17th, 2018, 7:53 pm

Where did I say he should be thrown on the scrap heap? I just said he won't be good enough for international rugby. He'll be fine as a squad option for us.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby Peg Leg » April 17th, 2018, 9:44 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:No he isn't, Kruis is 199 cm (6'6'.5") and Launchbury is 198 cm (6'6"). They're also considerably heavier than him and much better athletes. Maro gets away with being 6'5" because half the time he's in the back row and he's a freakish athlete. If you're 6'6" or less in the second row, you NEED to be heavy and a very good athlete to survive at international level. If you're 6'7"+, you can get away with being a bit less athletic/physically heavy set. Molony doesn't have size or athleticism.


Ok, so he's the same height as them, fine. AND he's younger by three or four years. So give him time.

I can't believe I'm on a Leinster fan forum and I'm on my own arguing with people that he shouldn't be thrown on the scrap heap at 23.
Im with you Ciaran. I think he and all lower ranking 2nd rows suffer from not getting enough gametime with the Fardy and Toner.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby mildlyinterested » April 18th, 2018, 8:12 am

Peg Leg wrote:
CiaranIrl wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:No he isn't, Kruis is 199 cm (6'6'.5") and Launchbury is 198 cm (6'6"). They're also considerably heavier than him and much better athletes. Maro gets away with being 6'5" because half the time he's in the back row and he's a freakish athlete. If you're 6'6" or less in the second row, you NEED to be heavy and a very good athlete to survive at international level. If you're 6'7"+, you can get away with being a bit less athletic/physically heavy set. Molony doesn't have size or athleticism.


Ok, so he's the same height as them, fine. AND he's younger by three or four years. So give him time.

I can't believe I'm on a Leinster fan forum and I'm on my own arguing with people that he shouldn't be thrown on the scrap heap at 23.
Im with you Ciaran. I think he and all lower ranking 2nd rows suffer from not getting enough gametime with the Fardy and Toner.


Why would that hold them back?

The lower ranking 2nd rows suffer from not being very good.

Molony is worth persisting with due to his youth but Kearney/Nagle are not up to standard.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby curates_egg » April 18th, 2018, 8:42 am

I think it is harsh to say that Kearney isn't "up to standard". He has seriously struggled with injuries since joining us. Seems to get his lights turned out in every second game, which might explain his handling.
He seemed to be up to standard with Connacht and occasionally in his first season with us. I don't see any suggestion that Molony has surpassed that standard.
Now, unfortunately, his body seems to be not up to the task.
Nagle has also been injured a lot in his career and doesn't look to have the mental strength.

Before we talk about boiling them up for glue though, I'd want to be sure that the alternative 5/6 choice locks we bring in are at least of the standard those two guys have shown they can hit.
I mean, we had Tom Denton starting in a European game a few seasons back if I am not mistaken. I would have his standard as behind Nagle and Kearney.
We don't need to go back through all the names of the flop second row signings we have made, but even Douglas (who on paper was a good signing) wasn't up to standard.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby Dave Cahill » April 18th, 2018, 8:54 am

curates_egg wrote:I think it is harsh to say that Kearney isn't "up to standard". He has seriously struggled with injuries since joining us. Seems to get his lights turned out in every second game, which might explain his handling.
He seemed to be up to standard with Connacht and occasionally in his first season with us. I don't see any suggestion that Molony has surpassed that standard.
Now, unfortunately, his body seems to be not up to the task.
Nagle has also been injured a lot in his career and doesn't look to have the mental strength.

Before we talk about boiling them up for glue though, I'd want to be sure that the alternative 5/6 choice locks we bring in are at least of the standard those two guys have shown they can hit.
I mean, we had Tom Denton starting in a European game a few seasons back if I am not mistaken. I would have his standard as behind Nagle and Kearney.
We don't need to go back through all the names of the flop second row signings we have made, but even Douglas (who on paper was a good signing) wasn't up to standard.


Denton never started a european match for Leinster.

What Leinster need is a Damien Browne. We'd probably find one in South Africa as there don't appear to be any available in Ireland.
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Re: Leinster's 2nd Row options

Postby mildlyinterested » April 18th, 2018, 8:58 am

curates_egg wrote:I think it is harsh to say that Kearney isn't "up to standard". He has seriously struggled with injuries since joining us. Seems to get his lights turned out in every second game, which might explain his handling.
He seemed to be up to standard with Connacht and occasionally in his first season with us. I don't see any suggestion that Molony has surpassed that standard.
Now, unfortunately, his body seems to be not up to the task.
Nagle has also been injured a lot in his career and doesn't look to have the mental strength.

Before we talk about boiling them up for glue though, I'd want to be sure that the alternative 5/6 choice locks we bring in are at least of the standard those two guys have shown they can hit.
I mean, we had Tom Denton starting in a European game a few seasons back if I am not mistaken. I would have his standard as behind Nagle and Kearney.
We don't need to go back through all the names of the flop second row signings we have made, but even Douglas (who on paper was a good signing) wasn't up to standard.


I don't think it is harsh, his performances for leinster have quite often not been good enough even at pro 14 level.

Jerry Sexton is worth a look, as is John Madigan.
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