Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

[matt]

There is no incentive for Ross Byrne to move to Ulster. It would be an awful career decision.

There is good incentive for Joey Carbery to move to get game time although he will not receive the same standard of coaching currently on offer at Leinster and his highlight reel may not look so impressive this time next year due to the quality of the team around him. Tough choice to make.

Ross Byrne, on the other hand will continue to improve, probably, under Lancaster's tutelage.

The likely scenario is that Joey will move because Ross Byrne is a more valuable asset to Leinster Rugby right now.

But, Ross Byrne could overtake JC in the pecking order and next year Leinster have the familiar problem of both first choice out halves at Ireland camp, what then.

A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Have never disagreed with a post on this forum more than this. Sexton is 33 in July and his career will be extended by having Joey to share game time with. Joey will also benefit working with Sexton and he will stay playing for the team he wants to play with.

[suisse]

Carbery to Ulster doesn't seem like the right fit. He might get more game time but is he gonna control a game in Europe they way they might need, especially if their weak pack is getting bullied as usual? Carbery to Belfast looks like a step back. They're a mess of an organisation and if he's asked to run a game behind a beaten up pack, he'll be crucified. No good can come of this. This looks like a career staller if anything. Going from Leo, Stu and the best squad in Europe to a team routinely humiliated in Europe and without a medal in 12 years.

[CiaranIrl]

I don't think I'd be very happy about this if I was an Ulster fan I have to say.

Let's imagine for a second that Sherry, Rhys Marshall & Niall Scannell in Munster were all injury free and had world class potential, and that Cronin was leaving Leinster for Bristol. Imagine if none of them wanted to move to Leinster, but Nucifora was pressurising one to move. Would you want them, or would you trust in our own?

[riocard911]

The question is, how much longer will Sexton play on after the world cup? He'll be 34 at that stage. Maybe one more year? We don't want to end up like Munster after O'Gara. Carbery seems to be heir apparent, so we need to keep him and satisfy the paymasters with giving him enough gametime.

We can deal with Ross Byrne leaving. He's excellent, and he'll do well there. The gap between him and Marsh/Frawley isn't massive, and we have players like Harry Byrne, Conor Dean & maybe Hawkshaw pushing through.

My thinking also.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I don't think I'd be very happy about this if I was an Ulster fan I have to say.

Let's imagine for a second that Sherry, Rhys Marshall & Niall Scannell in Munster were all injury free and had world class potential, and that Cronin was leaving Leinster for Bristol. Imagine if none of them wanted to move to Leinster, but Nucifora was pressurising one to move. Would you want them, or would you trust in our own?

Yeah I'd take Marshall, cracking player and no ties to Munster

[outcast eddie]

There is no incentive for Ross Byrne to move to Ulster. It would be an awful career decision.

There is good incentive for Joey Carbery to move to get game time although he will not receive the same standard of coaching currently on offer at Leinster and his highlight reel may not look so impressive this time next year due to the quality of the team around him. Tough choice to make.

Ross Byrne, on the other hand will continue to improve, probably, under Lancaster's tutelage.

The likely scenario is that Joey will move because Ross Byrne is a more valuable asset to Leinster Rugby right now.

But, Ross Byrne could overtake JC in the pecking order and next year Leinster have the familiar problem of both first choice out halves at Ireland camp, what then.

A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Have never disagreed with a post on this forum more than this. Sexton is 33 in July and his career will be extended by having Joey to share game time with. Joey will also benefit working with Sexton and he will stay playing for the team he wants to play with.

Everyone seems to be forgetting the fact that Joey mostly plays full back for Leinster. That is partly because he hasn't been good enough to unseat Ross Byrne in blue. His last outing at out half wasn't exactly stellar and reinforces the apparent view from the coaches that Ross Byrne is a better option at out half. Joey just comes on for 20mins or so to finish off beaten teams, this represents poor use of his talent but he hasn't hit the heights of Chicago for some time.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think getting into the pros and cons of one of the tens moving is pointless. The cons are probably irrelevant to Joecifora, they just see a gap at Ulster and the chance for Carbery (as Hugo said, it's more than likely him that they want to move) to play consistently at ten in big games. What I'm getting at is that I don't think Mick Dawson/Leo try to argue that everyone (bar Ulster) is better served by them staying here, I think they just try and argue that it's wrong to force Leinster/the players to do anything.

I'm not saying that will work, but I think it's a more important issue. If they do force this through then they'll keep doing it. There could be loads of players vulnerable to this kind of move in the future...Dooley, Aungier, Doris etc are all really talented youngsters in areas with good depth. So even if we argued our way out of Carbery/Byrne leaving, they'll just come back again for the likes of those guys to move.

[neiliog93]

As a compromise measure, is there anything to be said for a season-long loan deal? It would allow Carbery plenty of game time at 10 in advance of the world cup, which would probably be of benefit to him and Ireland. After the world cup, he could return to Leinster, where Sexton would have two seasons max left (if that) and probably ever more wrapped in cotton wool.

On the Ulster side, it would give them a quality young player and afford McPhillips and Curtis another year of development before being thrown in at the deep end as first/second choice from the 2019-20 season onwards. Ulster have had a lot of NIQs of late and the IRFU seem to be determined for them to play an Irish no.10, so I don't think they'll be allowed another Leali'fano.

Having said all of that, I do accept other posters' comments that Carbery is not the type of 10 Ulster need. They need an established, safe operator who can operate with grit and cleverness behind a beaten pack. Carbery is probably the polar opposite of that right now. A tough year in Ulster before the RWC could be the making of him, or the breaking of him.

[OTT]

The age profile of the three outhalfs Johnny 32, Ross Byrne just turned 23 and Joey at 22 surely would mean Leinster will need all three in the season ahead like never before. The reason the two young lads are being talked up despite their youth is because they have got game time for Leinster ie we have used our resources to develop the two of them well.


For Ulster they have Johnny McPhilips at 21 if you threw one of the lads up there would they not still need an experienced head to guide the ship? It just seems very premature to me and will end up with two young guys getting flogged McPhilips and one of the two boys.

With my blue hat on I won't think its great business if we are forced to let one of the lads go but from a purely sensible point of view I could see it might be something that would happen in the future because either Byrne or Joey might think its time for them to be starting big games and from a Leinster pov Harry Byrne or Conor Dean would be pushing hard to be part of the senior squad. At the minute it just seems like a numbers game stick two IQ 10's at Ulster, two at Leinster, two at Munster and let Connacht work on theirs. It seems really daft actually, even the pick one or the other (if that is true) at least if they went with some sort of plan that they wanted Joey specifically to be getting the game time but one or the other ffs. how ridiculous.

[Peg Leg]

"They said I wasn't a good tactician, couldn't play the long game...."

[Flash Gordon]

BOD quoted on Off the Ball as saying he wouldn't move to Ulster as its a "basket case".

It's not even a basket case you know! Currently they have no coach and what coach would want to go there? Joey is an unbelievable talent but has a lot to learn. At Leinster he has the an incredible team behind him technically, culturally and in terms of strength and conditioning. At Ulster he'll basically have a coaching team that know full well that they would get nowhere near a top job.

Presumably if he refuses to go he doesn't have to go?

One of the issues Ireland face is that Carbery and Leinster are having to positionally cover so many injuries and Ireland duty gaps. Not only did we have to play the kids to cover the experienced internationals but now the kids are being brought into the international squad.

[neiliog93]

The Ulster coaching set-up is undoubtedly poor. But in terms of training, strength and conditioning and facilities in general, they're as good as Leinster. Culturally, they're a mess though. Maybe the departures (of various guises) will improve that.

[ChrisUppy]

Imagine sitting down with Carbery just after his stint off the bench seeing Leinster in to the Champions cup final and trying to convince him to leave the success, friends and top class coaching behind to move to a team with NO coaching team in place for next season, no pack, who are still fighting for qualification to the Champions cup... and for what? to get more minutes at 10 with a view to backing up Sexton for Ireland (a job he is doing regardless).

Where is the reward for him?

[Grumpy Old Man]

Imagine sitting down with Carbery just after his stint off the bench seeing Leinster in to the Champions cup final and trying to convince him to leave the success, friends and top class coaching behind to move to a team with NO coaching team in place for next season, no pack, who are still fighting for qualification to the Champions cup... and for what? to get more minutes at 10 with a view to backing up Sexton for Ireland (a job he is doing regardless).

Where is the reward for him?

Presume they would have to offer more money, possibly a central contract.

[domhnallj]

Imagine sitting down with Carbery just after his stint off the bench seeing Leinster in to the Champions cup final and trying to convince him to leave the success, friends and top class coaching behind to move to a team with NO coaching team in place for next season, no pack, who are still fighting for qualification to the Champions cup... and for what? to get more minutes at 10 with a view to backing up Sexton for Ireland (a job he is doing regardless).

Where is the reward for him?

Presume they would have to offer more money, possibly a central contract.

I get the professional concerns but he's only going to Belfast. He could probably commute down each day (with Jordi for company) if he wanted to. Regardless, he'd be mad not to want to see what the plans are re the coaching in addition to contract upgrade.

[ChrisUppy]

Imagine sitting down with Carbery just after his stint off the bench seeing Leinster in to the Champions cup final and trying to convince him to leave the success, friends and top class coaching behind to move to a team with NO coaching team in place for next season, no pack, who are still fighting for qualification to the Champions cup... and for what? to get more minutes at 10 with a view to backing up Sexton for Ireland (a job he is doing regardless).

Where is the reward for him?

Presume they would have to offer more money, possibly a central contract.

I would be surprised if offered him a central, considering all the talk recently has been about reducing the number of them, but maybe they would.

But even looking at it from a financial POV for a minute; he's only 22. And it's probably easier for me saying this form the outside, but as I player I would be thinking that my big money contracts come at the age of 26 or so and the better I develop between now and then, the better those contracts will be. Maybe he takes more money now, but joining that Ulster setup could end up being a massive hinderance to his development.

[Twist]

This doesn't make much sense to me. Ross Byrne seems like the type of player Ulster need but he's only 1-2 years older than McPhillips and doesn't have much experience of big games.

If he were to leave, then Leinster suddenly look very light when JS and JC go to Ireland camp. (And if Byrne performs well at Ulster then maybe he comes into the Ireland reckoning too. If he doesn't perform well then Ulster are no better off)

So you send Carbery up the road and Ulster lose him to Ireland for big chunks of the year. And he's even younger than Byrne. And he's maybe not the player they need. Then again, we don't know what brand of rugby they'll play next year because they've no coach.

Added to all this is the worrying situation regarding Bleyendaal down south. Two neck operations since he last played, I think?

I don't know what the solution to all this is but I can't help but think that Madigan has a role to play. He's experienced, but not past it. He can run and pass and his kicking game is at least as good as RB. If it goes well he's another option for Joe, who's just lost PJ. Him and Cooney could build up a serious partnership. It'd be stupid not to at least sound him out.

Ulster need experience. Ireland need depth. Bring him home!


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[johng]

Madser is on a 3 year in Bristol. Would cost the bones of a cool mill to buy him out of it. Bristol don't need the money

[Logorrhea]

Cant see either of them deciding to go north without a coach being put in place. You'd want to talk to the coach, work out if their plans match yours etc.

They are building a pack, but the coach needs to be selected. Imagine Joey heading up there and they appoint someone like MOC.

[Oldschool]

While newspaper headlines speculating about Joey and Ross and ultimatums to Leo et al make for good posting backchat, the reality is somewhat different.
Ask yourselves seriously would JS leave a decision about an OH transfer to chance.
Like hell he would.
Any move if it happens will be decided by JS.