Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

[johng]

I have grown to really hate the IRFU and think they give basically all of the provinces a raw deal, bar Munster.

I think it's more like they want to strengthen the weaker ones. Remember Rocky, CJ and Isa arriving in Oct 08 when Munster were top of the world.

I remember bringing a Munster mate of mine to the game that month in the RDS so he could watch CJ feed Marcus Horan his own arse.

18 points to nil later it looked like a poor strategy.

[curates_egg]

I have grown to really hate the IRFU and think they give basically all of the provinces a raw deal, bar Munster.

I think it's more like they want to strengthen the weaker ones. Remember Rocky, CJ and Isa arriving in Oct 08 when Munster were top of the world.

I remember bringing a Munster mate of mine to the game that month in the RDS so he could watch CJ feed Marcus Horan his own arse.

18 points to nil later it looked like a poor strategy.

Munster are underperforming (based on a historical timeline) through kack-handedness.
They are also performing a lot better than Ulster and Connacht.
Since the Deathstar, they have just been spoonfed at other provinces' expense. Yet, as you pointed out in your podcast, they are still juggling turnips and throwing skip-threes forward into touch. Cut them loose!

Putting my Leinster gripes aside, from an Irish rugby perspective, I find it utter nonsense that they are allowed to sign a conveyor belt of Safas, whilst Ulster are blocked with every move they make.
Munster could field a strong team next season by selecting signed players (Safas, Kiwis, Leinstermen and Ulstermen) only (apart from at prop). Yet Ulster are again blocked from signing an outhalf, despite them being put in a crisis due to a decision by the IRFU (I am not saying the decision was wrong but it was their decision, and they are not owning the consequences for Ulster).
It is phenomenal double standards. Ulster fans are totally justifiably fecked off.

[johng]

The IRFU are mammy and daddy. If little Michael goes on a bender and messes up his college degree, Mammy and daddy will still bail him out.

If Sammy has all his ducks in a row financially but can't pull it together for whatever reason, Mammy and daddy might just give him a bit of tough love instead in the hope that he can build something more sustainable on his own.

[harblstuff]

I love watching Carbery play. I think he is a uniquely talented player. I prefer the way he plays at outhalf to Byrne.
I think he has skills, which you can't coach, that Byrne doesn't. Whereas what Byrne has over him can be coached.
I think I would puke if I seem him playing for Munster. It would really be horrible.

Munster has 3 10s (2 if Bleyendaal's surgery leads to a retirement), Carbery's style suits Leinster and Ulster, not Munster. Munster never have played with a Carbery style 10, they've made fun of that brand of rugby, all of a sudden a world class Irish 10 appears they now want in? I don't see Munster adapting to his style, rather forcing him into theirs.

If you held a gun to my head and said Carbery to Munster or Ulster, I'd go for Ulster. Their style of play is more suited to Carbery, we hear a lot of concern about their forwards, but let's look at it. Their pack is improving: Nordi, Moore, Henderson, Best, Treadwell, Deysel, Reid, Coetzee, Henry, Herring and this is before we look at their academy prospects which have been performing well at Ireland U20s, and which has been producing more forwards over backs (5 vs 4). He also has Cooney in a Scrum Half, possibly the second best SH in Ireland at the moment, if not at least tied with LMG.

I have grown to really hate the IRFU and think they give basically all of the provinces a raw deal, bar Munster.
I find their meddling in this situation loathsome.

Ulster get the worst end of the IRFU, granted their own internal politics, organisation, culture and injuries have stifled them just as much. They have the best stadium, paid for, debt free and they're a financially positive return to the IRFU. Not only is there no reward, it feels like they're actively hated by the IRFU.

Leinster have provided the IRFU with silverware, income and players and are not rewarded, I feel like we're taken for granted, though I don't feel like there was much malice or meddling - until Carbery/Byrne this season.

However Munster are has beens that have regressed to Neanderthal rugby (with the odd game of good quality, or punching above their weight) after Rob Penney tried to bring them into the 21st century, not having won anything of note since 2011, they have been handed loans, breaks, players, NIQs over the quota and have got nothing to show for it but an empty Thomond Park - and now there are rumours they'll get Carbery, a Fly Half who doesn't suit the Munster style of Neanderthal rugby - I don't expect Munster to restructure their entire team around one 22 year old, rather they'll just shoehorn him in and deliver on the media soundbite "Carbery needs more game time at 10!"

Munster have delivered above their level in the last few years, Semi Finals where they probably shouldn't have. He could be scapegoated for Munster being average, who does he have to learn from and develop? Keatley? What type of game plan? Will they do a JJ on him, neglect him, play Keatley, put Carbery at 15 (or better: Conway at 15, Carbery on the bench for 10/15 cover) and then blame him if he reverts to his open style of play (but which fails, because Munster don't have the skills?), Christ, I'm not happy thinking about it.

If he moves, and it's longer than one year, will he ever be able to return? Would the IRFU just block it? It's likely a one way ticket and he knows it. If it ends up being a disaster, he may well leave Ireland like Madigan if he can't return to Leinster. He could easily fetch 4-500k in France.

[TrapperChamonix]

If you held a gun to my head and said Carbery to Munster or Ulster, I'd go for Ulster. Their style of play is more suited to Carbery, we hear a lot of concern about their forwards, but let's look at it. Their pack is improving: Nordi, Moore, Henderson, Best, Treadwell, Deysel, Reid, Coetzee, Henry, Herring and this is before we look at their academy prospects which have been performing well at Ireland U20s, and which has been producing more forwards over backs (5 vs 4). He also has Cooney in a Scrum Half, possibly the second best SH in Ireland at the moment, if not at least tied with LMG.

No top quality Props in that list of forwards. Thats going to be a real problem for them next year.

[harblstuff]

No top quality Props in that list of forwards. Thats going to be a real problem for them next year.

Yes, just Moore and he's dropped off - quite a lazy attitude, not very disciplined. The hope was Gibbes would whip him into shape, but Ulster's culture and politics made sure that won't happen.

That's still a problem, but hearing people talk about Ulster, they make it sound like they don't have a single loose forward worth talking about and only Henderson and Best qualify as 'good'.

The point of my paragraph was just to show that it's improving, it's not a dire pack, but yes, it's also not without weaknesses in props (or lack thereof).

[mildlyinterested]

So for the preseason leinster will have all 3 senior scrumhalves available and 1 academy outhalf(Frawley)

[Oldschool]

Schmidt has been lukewarm at best on Byrne, which limits how hard he’ll push Byrne to Ulster and how much Byrne wants it.

Carbery’s 2nd season wasn’t the same at outhalf but he was needed at fullback and injured at the wrong time. Mightn’t happen again. Best thing for his development would be Leinster signing a fullback to cover Kearney.

Schmidt needs a 3rd OH and has obviously decided that RB is the next in line.
It's obviously untenable from an Ireland pov to have his three OHs playing for the same club.
Ergo one of them has to move and JC is the nominee at the moment.
Maybe that will change over the course of the Oz tour.
From JS' pov Ulster would be the best option.
Fears that McPhilips? would lose out are over stated.
JC would be out of town for the international windows and injuries are inevitable so McPhilips' development would be phased rather than fast track.
Ulster (including their fans) should have tried a lot harder than they appear to have to entice JC north.
As a player the most unattractive part of a move away from Leinster for and player is that they are likely moving away from silverware - it's a big ask.

Jesus. What's with initialisms? Makes it very difficult to read.
JS - in the context of a post about outhalves and the national side - is particularly egregious.
But if you insist on using them, please then don't use all caps for a nickname, like Oz.

Everyone uses J10 for Sexton.
You've probably done so yourself but don't hold me to that.
I'll try harder the next time.

[curates_egg]

Everyone uses J10 for Sexton.
You've probably done so yourself but don't hold me to that.
I'll try harder the next time.

Say 10 Hail Maries and an Our Father.

[leinsterforever]

If you held a gun to my head and said Carbery to Munster or Ulster, I'd go for Ulster. Their style of play is more suited to Carbery, we hear a lot of concern about their forwards, but let's look at it. Their pack is improving: Nordi, Moore, Henderson, Best, Treadwell, Deysel, Reid, Coetzee, Henry, Herring and this is before we look at their academy prospects which have been performing well at Ireland U20s, and which has been producing more forwards over backs (5 vs 4). He also has Cooney in a Scrum Half, possibly the second best SH in Ireland at the moment, if not at least tied with LMG.

No top quality Props in that list of forwards. Thats going to be a real problem for them next year.

Ah, I think they're okay at tighthead. Moore, O'Toole and Kane are good options. They could definitely use some extra quality at loosehead

So for the preseason leinster will have all 3 senior scrumhalves available and 1 academy outhalf(Frawley)

Noel Reid could fill in

[mildlyinterested]

So for the preseason leinster will have all 3 senior scrumhalves available and 1 academy outhalf(Frawley)

Noel Reid could fill in

he really couldn't though.. I wonder if Marsh might be given a short term contract.

[neiliog93]

To spin a positive, it's a good chance for Frawley and Harry Byrne to step up.

[mildlyinterested]

To spin a positive, it's a good chance for Frawley and Harry Byrne to step up.

Harry Byrne will be held back due to the JWC afaik

[leinsterforever]

So for the preseason leinster will have all 3 senior scrumhalves available and 1 academy outhalf(Frawley)

Noel Reid could fill in

he really couldn't though.. I wonder if Marsh might be given a short term contract.

I don't see why not?

Marsh might be waiting to see what transpires at Ulster or Connacht and hoping there's something there for him

[mildlyinterested]

I don't see why not?

Marsh might be waiting to see what transpires at Ulster or Connacht and hoping there's something there for him

If Reid is our backup 10 for any pro 14 games, we are in trouble.

[leinsterforever]

I don't see why not?

Marsh might be waiting to see what transpires at Ulster or Connacht and hoping there's something there for him

If Reid is our backup 10 for any pro 14 games, we are in trouble.

Maybe, maybe not

[mildlyinterested]

I don't see why not?

Marsh might be waiting to see what transpires at Ulster or Connacht and hoping there's something there for him

If Reid is our backup 10 for any pro 14 games, we are in trouble.

Maybe, maybe not

[riocard911]

To spin a positive, it's a good chance for Frawley and Harry Byrne to step up.

Harry Byrne will be held back due to the JWC afaik

No worries. Hawkshaw a la Larmour to the rescue!!!!!!

[mildlyinterested]

Yeah i'd probably be more comfortable with Hawkshaw than Reid.

[EarthGorilla]

Listening to OTB here and even our own BOD is saying JC "has to go".

I don't like it, but can see the case for JC to Ulster. However, having him go to Munster is beyond disgraceful given they already have a backlog of 3 themselves, the exact reason being used to justify this nonsense.. In any other sport, would a team who have produced their own players, be forced to hand over one of their biggest talents and strengthen their biggest rivals, at their own expense, seemingly with no compensation being offered in return? I understand the IRFU is the big boss and that rugby is not soccer, but that argument is full of flaws. It took Real Madrid to shatter the transfer record to get Figo from Barcelona. At least Barcelona were left with a big financial windfall to make up for losing their best player to their biggest rival. Leinster are getting royally shanked here, and seem destined to get absolutely nothing in return.

It should not work like this. Short termism to benefit Joe Schmidt, and screw what the player wants. It's one thing to freeze out Zebo who is leaving, but quite another to start meddling with provincial rosters when you're buggering off in a little over 15 months. Schmidt has really gone down in my regard due to this.

What if in 5 years JC has fulfilled his potential, but instead is spearheading Munster to CC's or Pro 14 titles and we are struggling to replace Sexton? If that were to transpire it is beyond a joke. Imagine in 2008 if Munster had been forced to send Donnacha Ryan or Peter Stringer up our way because they were not starting Heineken Cup Finals?

An utter disgrace of a situation.