Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

[blockhead]

Joe and Nucifora, come from the lands of franchises. Players get shifted about the place all the time down under. To them, moving players around to get the right balance is just logical, and for the greater good.
This is the land of Provinces. We would not have developed and progressed as far as we have, since the advent of professionalism, if it wasn't for the identity that the fans have with their own provinces and the rivalry that ensues.
We risk losing that identity, that unique "them vs us" tribalry if we go too far down this franchise road that Nucifora has us all on.
We are losing Carbery, that's bad, but Munster are losing their soul.

[Blueberry]

Joe and Nucifora, come from the lands of franchises. Players get shifted about the place all the time down under. To them, moving players around to get the right balance is just logical, and for the greater good.
This is the land of Provinces. We would not have developed and progressed as far as we have, since the advent of professionalism, if it wasn't for the identity that the fans have with their own provinces and the rivalry that ensues.
We risk losing that identity, that unique "them vs us" tribalry if we go too far down this franchise road that Nucifora has us all on.
We are losing Carbery, that's bad, but Munster are losing their soul.

Yes good sum up..... that's pretty much the conflict here exacerbated by a desperation at Munster to find a quick fix. Don't underestimate the short termism of their coaching in recent years and the mental trauma of watching us win 4 hec's. It has helped drive the blindness down there to them 'losing their religion'.

[leinsterforever]

Are we not being bit hypocritical here, lads? Leinster poached Henshaw from Connacht, and are now supposedly looking for the "quick-fix" that is bringing in Joe Tomane as back-up 12 rather than having a go at developing COB, Frawley or O'Loughlin

[blockhead]

Are we not being bit hypocritical here, lads? Leinster poached Henshaw from Connacht, and are now supposedly looking for the "quick-fix" that is bringing in Joe Tomane as back-up 12 rather than having a go at developing COB, Frawley or O'Loughlin

1. Henshaw is a Leinster boy, who happened to play for Connacht for a bit. There are 10+ Leinster guy's in Connacht atm.
2. Tomane, or someone else, is just using up our NIQ slots. A limited quota compared to our rivals in Europe.

We'll be hypocritical when half our squad is from outside our province, and when there are more Munster men than Dubs togging out in blue jerseys with 4 stars on their chest.

[leinsterforever]

Are we not being bit hypocritical here, lads? Leinster poached Henshaw from Connacht, and are now supposedly looking for the "quick-fix" that is bringing in Joe Tomane as back-up 12 rather than having a go at developing COB, Frawley or O'Loughlin

1. Henshaw is a Leinster boy, who happened to play for Connacht for a bit. There are 10+ Leinster guy's in Connacht atm.
2. Tomane, or someone else, is just using up our NIQ slots. A limited quota compared to our rivals in Europe.

We'll be hypocritical when half our squad is from outside our province, and when their are more Munster men than Dubs togging out in blue jerseys with 4 stars on their chest.

No. 1 is an incredibly inane and glib excuse that you see trotted out sometimes. Everyone knows Henshaw was affiliated with Connacht all the way up. Leinster played no part in his development. Nearly all the Leinster players at Connacht are cast-offs Leinster didn't want. Roux and Kellehar are the only exceptions off the top of my head.

Don't know what to say to no. 2, except that Munster could probably make that claim as well.

You won't get any argument from me that Munster need to get a whole lot better at developing their own players and improving the standard of coaching in the set-up, but let's not pretend we're whiter than white. Leinster still buy in the finished product from outside, just to a lesser degree due to the greater number of quality schools players we have

[COYBIB]

Munster just want to have their cake and eat it. They can't bare their irrelevance and are selling their soul to keep it. It's no more a Munster team now than it is a North African one or a South Leinster one, with a very generous sprinkling of Orange Men.

They're not willing to fail by giving their own a chance, they'd rather fail with a pieced together Barbarian outfit. It's the irony, by the grace of god, that gets me.

For all intents and purposes they're a failed entity. Bankrupt and have produced what, 5 players to regularly feature in the national team over 10 years? Murray, Earls, Zebo, O'Mahony... jesus, could that be all?

So as it stands they're merely a parasite on Irish rugby, draining money out of the system to soak up their write-offs, wavering attendances...they're a comical outfit. But the IRFU sustain them to an exoborenant degree to try and keep a second "strong province", I think if they put half into Ulster what they've put into Munster, they would have their two strong provinces, traditionally the two that have always been the strong provinces (bar the purple patch through the 90s into 00's) and it would make sense, it's where the two cities on the Island are, the two best schools rugby systems, the highest participation numbers, Northern Ireland still has plenty of scope for more options in sport to attract fans... I don't understand why they keep Munster on life support to the detriment of the rest of us.

The original IRFU model for professional sport was the best in the world, but it hasn't changed much since and I think there's scope for change, it's far too restrictive and controlling of the provinces and treats their success as a threat instead of finding a way to embrace it, big picture stuff here, but growing the sport and exposure and day to day fans who go every other weekend, those are the paying fans of tomorrow and they fall in love at the provinces, you need to nurture that.

I mean, Carbery may see out his career there and good luck to him if he does, I'll be interested to see if he can get near to achieving half the potential he had when he left, neither Jones or Conway came within an arses roar. The place is a cemetary where young careers go to die.

[MelbourneRebel]

I think we collectively need to calm down with the Munster criticisms that lack any credibility. It’s embarrassing and there is enough substance to our rivalry without resorting to the guff we’re reading here

[thecomedian]

I think we collectively need to calm down with the Munster criticisms that lack any credibility. It’s embarrassing and there is enough substance to our rivalry without resorting to the guff we’re reading here

Well said.
Why do some find it so hard to except that for Joey to keep his international squad place he needed more game time at ten. Leinster haven’t played him enough there (for various reasons) so he has to move to find it. It annoys me but that what Joey has to do. We haven’t given him a run of games at 10 this year, Byrne gets the nod most of the time.
Anyway Joey has his starting place for the first test against the Aussies now.


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[Blueberry]

I think we collectively need to calm down with the Munster criticisms that lack any credibility. It’s embarrassing and there is enough substance to our rivalry without resorting to the guff we’re reading here

Don't disagree with you, Munster have an import part to play in the Irish system, can be a great side again and the stronger they are the more it will push Leinster (it always has....) but if they continue the road that they are on it's not going to end well. I've talked to several Munster fans and their is disquiet in the terraces about the direction they are headed and the lack of Munstermen, that's really all we are talking about. If the IRFU can't see this and just happily let Munster become a franchise with surplus Irish talent to prop up NIQ's it kills the whole provincial thing. Yes some of the language on here is a bit flowery but it is Leinster v Munster chat after all, it's never been that well rounded or balanced but that's half the fun of it.

I think all Leinster fans are glowing with the quality of local players that are coming through ATM in Leinster, the Larmour's, Ryan's, Leavy's, Van De Flier's, Porter's, Furlong's, Byrne's, McGrath's, Ringrose's etc are a joy to behold and while there yes is a simple short term logic to 'getting Carbery more game time at 10' with this move (assuming he actually plays 10) it's very short term and does damage to both Leinster, Munster and the Irish game long term. While right now Munster might not be able to produce the same volume of local talent as Leinster are they ain't giving it a chance and are too quick to look elsewhere. That should be the point of the IRFU and Nucifora, longer term management and strategy for growth and player pull through. I can understand to a degree why Munster are desperate to compete at the top level by buying in but local development is what Irish rugby needs. If we do everything for a world cup then yes let's move Murray to play with Sexton it makes about as much sense......

[Laighin Break]

Munster just want to have their cake and eat it. They can't bare their irrelevance and are selling their soul to keep it. It's no more a Munster team now than it is a North African one or a South Leinster one, with a very generous sprinkling of Orange Men.

I assume you mean Ulster men here. I highly doubt Chris Farrell would have anything to do with the orange order

[Dave Cahill]

No. 1 is an incredibly inane and glib excuse that you see trotted out sometimes. Everyone knows Henshaw was affiliated with Connacht all the way up. Leinster played no part in his development. Nearly all the Leinster players at Connacht are cast-offs Leinster didn't want. Roux and Kellehar are the only exceptions off the top of my head.

Don't know what to say to no. 2, except that Munster could probably make that claim as well.

You won't get any argument from me that Munster need to get a whole lot better at developing their own players and improving the standard of coaching in the set-up, but let's not pretend we're whiter than white. Leinster still buy in the finished product from outside, just to a lesser degree due to the greater number of quality schools players we have

Henshaw was affiliated with Connacht because he went to a school affiliated with the Connacht Branch - the same way the lads from Tipp who go to Roscrea are affiliated with the Leinster branch. Doesn't make them any less Munstermen. Leinster never chased Henshaw, he chased Leinster. He originally tried to engineer a move as far back as 2014, but was told by Schmifora that if he saw out his time in Connacht then he could move to Leinster on a central contract.

[molloyjh]

Christ on a bike, some of the stuff on this thread is just depressing. The hysteria, melodrama and sheer nonsense getting trotted out really does make me wonder. Munster "losing their soul", Carbery being "the finished article", the IRFU "killing what's great about Irish rugby". I'd be fairly sure that if I looked back a few years that some of the same people being incredibly vocal about their opposition to this would also be the same people who knocked Connacht fans who were giving out about Leinster "stealing" all their best players. Which of course would be complete hypocrisy.

Let's be really clear about this:
1. Joey is nowhere near the finished article
2. With the limited amount of game time he was getting at Leinster it was going to be all but impossible for him to become the finished article by September 2019
3. There are no 10s outside of Leinster that are realistically in the frame for the RWC unless there's a serious injury crisis
4. Leinster cannot give 3 10s the requisite game time next season to get them ready for the RWC (pretty much a repeat of point 2, but worth repeating)
5. Munster and Ulster are both struggling for 10s that are good enough to help them push on
6. As Ulster only have one 10 in their senior squad the IRFU wanted Joey to move to Ulster
7. Joey didn't want to move to Ulster - let's face it, with no coach next season and a bunch of players leaving there probably wasn't anyone who could sell the move to him
8. Munster came in with an offer that could see Joey get more game time at 10 than he had been getting at Leinster, which would benefit him and Ireland
9. Joey made the decision himself to make the move, albeit strongly encouraged by the IRFU
10. This is 1 move. Just 1. It is not a death knell to all that is great about Irish rugby. It is 1 sensible move for the good of Irish rugby
11. There have been loads and loads of inter-provincial moves that haven't been driven by the IRFU that haven't been the death knell for all that is great about Irish rugby

I'd swear I'd wandered into MunsterFans or UAFC the way some people are carrying on here. Although I suppose this is our equivalent....

[ronk]

Connacht have taken our players and we have taken theirs. If we owe them more, we owe them. We dont have to explain ourselves to Munster.

When Munster start losing important players to Irish provinces for the sake of the Irish team, the can have a seat at that table. It's one way traffic.

We were told that players should be allowed move but Donnacha Ryan is a well known example of a player who was not allowed move. It was preferred to let him go to France, where (the story goes) he was critical in ending Munster's season.

Munster's continuing actions are damaging the development of Irish rugby. Letting them awy this this one will only make the problem worse.

Leinster have rebuilt carefully but rather than building on that we are going to have to rebuild again. Current IRFU strategy is to hobble our chance of a HC repeat by taking essential players (2 starting for Ireland this weekend), recruiting IQ players looking for caps only to other provinces (e.g. Beirne) and not letting us sign replacements for retiring players (Heaslip, Nacewa)

[Oldschool]

I'm being perfectly serious here.

It would make as much, if not significantly more sense, to move Conor Murray to Leinster in a world cup year to play with the rest of the Irish team and build his partnership with Sexton in a world cup year...

The whole thing is laughable, and yet, here we are, at square one with no solution to the problem that started this whole debate... somehow Munster edged into the conversation, took the best resource and then left...

Why is the finished article player always poached? Clearly the issue isn't with how well Leinster can develop players, but how poor the other provinces, particularly Munster, are at developing them. They have an U20 All Black world cup winning captain and an Irish 10 who beat the All Blacks and played in an U20 world cup final on their books. The raw materials isn't the problem.

What I want to know is what's in any of this for Leinster?

There must be a reaction from the Leinster branch, to the extent of tendering private funding. The IRFU (and Munster and Ulster and Connacht) need Leinster rugby a hell of a lot more than Leinster need the IRFU. They have become an anchor on the province and now they're starting to take the piss. There must be a reaction. A message has to be sent that raiding Leinster isn't the answer, getting the other provinces to up their standards and their conversion rate on young talent is the problem, and that's what needs to be addressed.

Leinster should demand significant budget increase out of Munsters budget to compensate for the thousands of coaching hours and hundreds of thousands of euro invested in this kid to get him to where he is, a move like this should see a significant forfeit of budget and potentially also NIQ spots (not given to us, just taken away) in order to force development.

The IRFU presumably had to sanction Leinster's signing of Lancaster and maybe provided some of the finance required.
So its not completely one sided.
It's also fair to say that Leinster was the only province that Lancaster would have considered signing for.

[Fireworks]

This thread is getting a bit silly at this point and I am happy(ish) to accept that I have contributed to the silliness. It has now gone significantly off topic. JC is gone. I don't like the way it happened etc.... The reality is the reality and we move forward and focus on who we have. Munster have significant issues but those are for themselves, the IRFU and the Irish management to worry about. As an Irish fan I hope the fix the issues, as a Leinster fan I would prefer to see stronger opposition to test us but I don't really care if that is Munster.

If we had never had JC we would be looking at our 10 options and thinking we were in a reasonable position. We have two of the three top Irish 10's and a few promising prospects coming through. Like any position we are an injury away from trouble but right now we look strong.

[Blueberry]

Agreed time to move on, rant over. Let's all just agree we don't like it, things are good at Leinster ATM, Munster have serious problems and hopefully the IRFU don't open the floodgates for further moves and leave our lads alone !!

Moving on is there really much to discuss about 10, hopefully Sexton is fit for the HEC games next year, if not Byrne and then we throw Frawley into as many PRO 14 games as possible and perhaps Junior Byrne for a few. That's it really folks and fingers crossed Frawley is new Messiah and Ross continues to improve !!

[ronk]

I'm happy to say that Ross Byrne is in line to be top 3 outhalves in the country but he's also uncapped. The 3 Irish outhalves narrative only emerged as convenient to suit a move that was already being pushed.

This thread is as good as any to discuss a big event that will affect Irish rugby and Leinster for years.

I think its useful to debate and record what happened. This was a smash and grab by Munster, who don't care about helping the Irish team, but are willing to leverage that excuse to get what they want.

The Munster branch lost €11m on Thomond. They just sacked half their academy because they were pretending to be developing players when they were really just making up numbers.

Carbery is an inflection point and Irish rugby can decide which direction to take. But if we accept a false self-serving narrative we are also accepting a different direction for Irish rugby and the price that comes with it.

A 5th star will be an accident with this strategy.

[riocard911]

Agreed time to move on, rant over. Let's all just agree we don't like it, things are good at Leinster ATM, Munster have serious problems and hopefully the IRFU don't open the floodgates for further moves and leave our lads alone !!

Moving on is there really much to discuss about 10, hopefully Sexton is fit for the HEC games next year, if not Byrne and then we throw Frawley into as many PRO 14 games as possible and perhaps Junior Byrne for a few. That's it really folks and fingers crossed Frawley is new Messiah and Ross continues to improve !!

And so say all of us!!!!!!!!

[molloyjh]

Ah yes, I forgot about that one. Ross Byrne was only selected to go to Australia to force Joey Carbery to go to Munster. Honest to God, could it get any more ridiculous?

[deco]

I think we collectively need to calm down with the Munster criticisms that lack any credibility. It’s embarrassing and there is enough substance to our rivalry without resorting to the guff we’re reading here

Well said.
Why do some find it so hard to except that for Joey to keep his international squad place he needed more game time at ten. Leinster haven’t played him enough there (for various reasons) so he has to move to find it. It annoys me but that what Joey has to do. We haven’t given him a run of games at 10 this year, Byrne gets the nod most of the time.
Anyway Joey has his starting place for the first test against the Aussies now.


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Eh yeah, on the back of "limited" game time at 10 for Leinster - unless you're suggesting that it's some sort of IRFU reward for breaking his contract?