Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

[ronk]

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This move makes sense for Ireland and makes sense for Joey himself. Leinster are the only ones it doesn't make sense for. But that's just our tough. We're a cog in a machine and we've got to accept that. Because it is something that works in our favour far more than to our disadvantage. Look at the Welsh regions for an example of what could have happened had the IRFU not taken the control that they took (and had they sunk money into a stadium rather than the game itself!). It's also something that's not going to change, so unless we're prepared to realise where we stand and get over it we're just going to end up pissed off over things that were never going to be any other way and that serve the greater good. I don't know about you, but I've better things to be doing with my time and energy than be getting mad about stuff like that.

The problem in Wales is principally that clubs dictated the direction of professional rugby to suit themselves. Kinda like Munster. I want to see the Irish team win, what's good for Munster isnt necessarily whats good for Ireland, ditto for Leinster, but it often is in practice because of how we're setup.

Stockpiling 5 Irish options in the depth chart in Munster while there is 1 in Ulster and 2 in Leinster is without question a bad idea. For everyone except Munster.

Munster have a long and consistent history of suiting themselves ahead of Irish rugby, they do this on and off the pitch.

If this was being done purely for the support of the Irish team there wouldnt have been nearly as many issues.

[molloyjh]

Stockpiling 5 Irish options in the depth chart.......

I'm going to stop you there. If you actually think that any of Johnston, JJ or Keatley are really options for the RWC you're kidding yourself. And we still don't know if TB will ever play again. And even if he does he's still got to prove he's an option an international level.

You can repeat that number all you want, only Joey is in the frame for selection for the RWC right now. The other 4 are an irrelevance from that perspective.

[Flash Gordon]

One of the issues we face is that we still await the next IRFU strategic plan which has now lapsed. In the previous plans there were clear objectives for Ireland the provinces in terms of winning things. It's also really difficult to follow the business plans for each entity because of the vagueries of the accounts and the joint contractual ownership of players.

Elite organisations tend to focus on their strengths and build them whether it be sports or business. The IRFU's workings with the provinces seems to focus Ireland towards the elite but in provincial terms, they seem to take the opposite approach with both funding and players.

[ronk]

Stockpiling 5 Irish options in the depth chart.......

I'm going to stop you there. If you actually think that any of Johnston, JJ or Keatley are really options for the RWC you're kidding yourself. And we still don't know if TB will ever play again. And even if he does he's still got to prove he's an option an international level.

You can repeat that number all you want, only Joey is in the frame for selection for the RWC right now. The other 4 are an irrelevance from that perspective.

Keatley is criminally underrated. He has over 275 professional games!!! In the last year or two he was playing some of the best rugby of his life. People complain about him but he's kept going through it all and delivered. He has over 10000 minutes for Munster. He's a good player for their level and would have gotten a lot or time here. He's done all that while they've been trying and failing for years to get a better player.

He's done more than, say, Billy Holland. Keatley won't make the RWC barring injuries, but he's still been a valuable member of the depth chart.

Carbery got about 10 times more gametime than he would have in Munster. Teams that can and have developed players should be trusted to develop players, not teams that have regressed/damaged 4 outhalves at the same time. JJ was nominated for U20 player of the year, it takes effort to mess that up so thoroughly.

[ronk]

can we remove Jowitt, and Tuqiri from that list?

Jeez, there's a lot more chaff in there than just those 2

+1 CJ and Finnegan to name just two more.

Both are on it

[janeymac08]

Stockpiling 5 Irish options in the depth chart.......

I'm going to stop you there. If you actually think that any of Johnston, JJ or Keatley are really options for the RWC you're kidding yourself. And we still don't know if TB will ever play again. And even if he does he's still got to prove he's an option an international level.

You can repeat that number all you want, only Joey is in the frame for selection for the RWC right now. The other 4 are an irrelevance from that perspective.

+1

Bill Johnson is just gone 21 (in February) he has been plagued with injury (2 shoulder ops and numerous niggles). His season only started in January this year.
It seems Tyler will be fit for next year, so Joey will have to compete for the 10 jersey. Its win-win for Joe Schmidt as Tyler is Ireland qualified now and if he stays injury free he will be an option for the RWC2019. The Luke Fitz podcasts seems to think that Joey is Simon Zebo's replacement at Munster at fullback.

As for Keatley, the reason why he didn't want to move to France was because his partner just had a baby and they wanted to stay where they would have family support. I don't think any of the Munster OHs will be going anywhere next season.

On the summary of Munster's perceived failure to develop OHs. JJ left and was unfortunately injured at lot when at Northampton so his development was hampered there. It was JJ's decision to leave Munster, so I can't see how Munster can be blamed for not developing him.

You forgot to mention Johnny Holland who looked the real deal for Munster but unfortunately had to retire early through injury.

[molloyjh]

Keatley is criminally underrated. He has over 275 professional games!!! In the last year or two he was playing some of the best rugby of his life. People complain about him but he's kept going through it all and delivered. He has over 10000 minutes for Munster. He's a good player for their level and would have gotten a lot or time here. He's done all that while they've been trying and failing for years to get a better player.

He's done more than, say, Billy Holland. Keatley won't make the RWC barring injuries, but he's still been a valuable member of the depth chart.

Keatley isn't as bad as some let on, but he's not great either. Munster will never win silverware with him at 10. If Ireland need to fall back on Keatley in the RWC then we're in trouble.

Carbery got about 10 times more gametime than he would have in Munster.

There is no way that you can objectively prove this. It's a complete "out of @rse" statement. Carbery already has more Irish caps than Keatley and was selected ahead of him in November, despite Keatley being first choice at Munster. He's clearly rated higher than Keatley by the Irish coaches. It really wouldn't be that much of a stretch to suggest that he would have made a similar impression at Munster. Joey has played the vast majority of his rugby at 15 this season too lets not forget, not at 10 where he's needed most by Ireland.

Teams that can and have developed players should be trusted to develop players, not teams that have regressed/damaged 4 outhalves at the same time. JJ was nominated for U20 player of the year, it takes effort to mess that up so thoroughly.

Again, Joey has played most of his games at 15 this season and for the second half of last season. If he was playing enough at 10 then he'd be staying put, like Jack McGrath or Andrew Porter. But he isn't. So clearly the view is that we aren't developing him appropriately. As for Munster "regressing/damaging" 4 other 10s, that's just laughable. Earlier in your post you said Keatley was "playing some of the best rugby of his life" and now he's been "regressed/damaged". Trump would be proud of that flip flop. TB is injured and we've no idea where he stands in terms of form. He arrived over injured too so quite how Munster can be at fault there I don't know. JJ left for Northampton and fared no better there than he has at Munster. He wouldn't be the first U20s player not to live up to the hype either. Bill Johnston is 21, so I really can't see how you could possibly claim Munster have done anything with him, good or bad, at this stage. Especially given his injury profile. Unless you want to blame Munster for that too?

Honestly, there's a massive lack of objectivity in your posts on this to the point where you're completely contradicting yourself inside of 8 sentences, let alone 8 minutes.

[ronk]

Keatley is not and never has been the weak link in the Munster squad. Munster could have won plenty if they were a better more talented team in other positions too.

Keatley is good enough that Madigan was excluded when he left even though exceptions are allowed.

Up until 2 weeks ago he was the 3rd choice outhalf in Ireland. And that was a move timed to unsettle Carbery.

If Keatley had been trusted and built on, you'd have seen a better player. I do think he stagnated early in his Munster career, I've said it before. He has been better the last 2 years.

JJ was a talented U20 player who has been completely ruined by poor development and coaching. Maybe that's his level and he was just overhyped but it just happens too often to too many players to always be true.

Andrew Porter reaped the benefits of switching positions. Carbery's versatility is a decisive advantage for him that would have been his key into the Ireland squad if Jackson was still around.

Now you're getting personal. Do you have more to offer than flamebait?

[Flash Gordon]

Ironically, you wonder whether Joey's versatility might have served him better in his quest to cement an Ireland World Cup place. If Ross Byrne and/or McPhillips have a cracker of a season and we bring 2 outhalves plus Cooney to the World Cup he could find himself 3rd or 4 choice. I think Carbery has more natural ability but it's clear that Byrne is a grafter. You see it in the kicking game where Byrne's kicking from hand and place kicking have improved dramatically whereas Joey's kicking is nowhere near international standard. Another year with Lancaster and Sexton and hopefully he will improve still further.

At Joey's other position, full back, Rob isn't getting any younger and has had a few injuries in recent years. Payne has retired, Zebo has gone to France and Joe doesn't fancy O'Halloran. Joey leaving leaves an open spot for Larmour of course who has a pretty clear run at Kearney's spot at both Leinster and Ireland.

[molloyjh]

Keatley is not and never has been the weak link in the Munster squad. Munster could have won plenty if they were a better more talented team in other positions too.

Keatley is good enough that Madigan was excluded when he left even though exceptions are allowed.

Up until 2 weeks ago he was the 3rd choice outhalf in Ireland. And that was a move timed to unsettle Carbery.

If Keatley had been trusted and built on, you'd have seen a better player. I do think he stagnated early in his Munster career, I've said it before. He has been better the last 2 years.

JJ was a talented U20 player who has been completely ruined by poor development and coaching. Maybe that's his level and he was just overhyped but it just happens too often to too many players to always be true.

Andrew Porter reaped the benefits of switching positions. Carbery's versatility is a decisive advantage for him that would have been his key into the Ireland squad if Jackson was still around.

Now you're getting personal. Do you have more to offer than flamebait?

I've done nothing but play the ball on this ronk. It was an entirely accurate observation that you're at the point where you are contradicting yourself within a single post. There's a lot of conjecture above and not a whole hell of a lot else. You've no interest in acknowledging the clear and massive holes in your point of view, and so I'm out.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

[

Keatley is criminally underrated. He has over 275 professional games!!! In the last year or two he was playing some of the best rugby of his life. People complain about him but he's kept going through it all and delivered. He has over 10000 minutes for Munster. He's a good player for their level and would have gotten a lot or time here. He's done all that while they've been trying and failing for years to get a better player.

I don't really get this. He was overtaken by TB last season and I would guess that he was only playing this season because TB was injured. I mean, they brought in JJ because they needed a ten. It also looked like he'd been surpassed by Holland a couple of years ago but then he was forced to retire. He was hooked early against Racing and then dropped for the game against us. So even if you rate him, it's clear the Munster management have lost faith to some degree. Realistically the only reason he's been involved with Ireland is because others have been unavailable and because of a lack of depth, not because he was particularly good. I doubt Joe was desperate to get Joey involved when he benched in Chicago but the lack of options gave him very little choice and now nearly two years later we've lost Jackson and probably TB from the depth chart and he has no issue parachuting Joey in ahead of him at Munster.

My point is just that while you might rate Keatley, there's quite a lot of evidence to suggest that various coaches felt they needed to improve on him and took measures to do so. You seem to ignore the context completely. Having a body of work behind him doesn't equate to him being good enough for either Munster or Ireland. It's not like his form ever demanded selection, quite often he was just the last man standing.

[ronk]

I know Keatley's limits. Just like I know Billy Holland's limits.

Of course I'd rate Carbery ahead of him, but I also have concerns about Carbery's development that I don't think Munster have a good track record at fixing.

They signed JJ because they sign a lot of players and he was available and it was a win with fans.

You don't play as much as Keatley did for a side like Munster without being an effective professional. He's been dropped but always fought his way back in.

Johnny Holland was a good player but it's hard to say yoo much because he hardly played for Munster. He's basically in the Ian McKinley space, and McKinley was a very exciting and fairly complete player when he broke through.

[fourthirtythree]

Munster dropped TB for form and played Keatley before his latest injury. They also played K ahead of JJ whenever there was a crunch match before the fanservice dropping after Racing where he carried the can for the forwards failure to secure ruck ball or line out - I mean its not as if POM is droppable by any coach wanting to stay at Munster. But Keatley was a better line out option than him.

Given a free hand I can see Munster coaching going with the safer hand at the tiller in Keatley ahead of Carbery starting. There is nothing in the past few years to suggest otherwise.

Munster are death for outhalf - they want them to kick the leather off it like its 1999 and they have an all international pack against club sides.

I guess that Schmidt backs Carbery's confidence and skills to rise above this unlike the others. And if it doesn't work out he and Ireland are no worse off.

They may be right but outside of that risk the only good thing about this move is that he will, if selected at 20, play outside Murray a bit more.

[ronk]

There's no downside to this deal for Munster. Even if Carbery bombs it's one less player they have to plan for against us.

He's a gifted player on the way up, but I think his best path was to stay here.

Munster have a terrible record at developing players that is getting worse. They've just boosted their presence in the Irish first choice 23 by half with new signings.

[leinsterforever]

Stockpiling 5 Irish options in the depth chart.......

I'm going to stop you there. If you actually think that any of Johnston, JJ or Keatley are really options for the RWC you're kidding yourself. And we still don't know if TB will ever play again. And even if he does he's still got to prove he's an option an international level.

You can repeat that number all you want, only Joey is in the frame for selection for the RWC right now. The other 4 are an irrelevance from that perspective.

+1

Bill Johnson is just gone 21 (in February) he has been plagued with injury (2 shoulder ops and numerous niggles). His season only started in January this year.
It seems Tyler will be fit for next year, so Joey will have to compete for the 10 jersey. Its win-win for Joe Schmidt as Tyler is Ireland qualified now and if he stays injury free he will be an option for the RWC2019. The Luke Fitz podcasts seems to think that Joey is Simon Zebo's replacement at Munster at fullback.

As for Keatley, the reason why he didn't want to move to France was because his partner just had a baby and they wanted to stay where they would have family support. I don't think any of the Munster OHs will be going anywhere next season.

On the summary of Munster's perceived failure to develop OHs. JJ left and was unfortunately injured at lot when at Northampton so his development was hampered there. It was JJ's decision to leave Munster, so I can't see how Munster can be blamed for not developing him.

You forgot to mention Johnny Holland who looked the real deal for Munster but unfortunately had to retire early through injury.

Munster very much can be blamed for not developing Hanrahan as an outhalf. I would put the blame squarely on Foley as a coach/Munster board for appointing Foley instead of offering Penney more than one more year. In Penney's first season Hanrahan got, I think, three starts at 10. In Penney's second season, Hanrahan got 11 starts at 10. In Foley's first season, Hanrahan got 11 starts again, but only three of them were at 10. Foley was completely unable/unwilling to nurture Hanrahan through and he ended up moving as a result

[ronk]

Ironically, you wonder whether Joey's versatility might have served him better in his quest to cement an Ireland World Cup place. If Ross Byrne and/or McPhillips have a cracker of a season and we bring 2 outhalves plus Cooney to the World Cup he could find himself 3rd or 4 choice. I think Carbery has more natural ability but it's clear that Byrne is a grafter. You see it in the kicking game where Byrne's kicking from hand and place kicking have improved dramatically whereas Joey's kicking is nowhere near international standard. Another year with Lancaster and Sexton and hopefully he will improve still further.

At Joey's other position, full back, Rob isn't getting any younger and has had a few injuries in recent years. Payne has retired, Zebo has gone to France and Joe doesn't fancy O'Halloran. Joey leaving leaves an open spot for Larmour of course who has a pretty clear run at Kearney's spot at both Leinster and Ireland.

Ulster and Munster have both signed experienced English but IQ fullbacks. There's Conway too. But certainly for a RWC that versatility is invaluable, especially if Henshaw, Aki and Ringrose are all fit at the same time.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I know Keatley's limits. Just like I know Billy Holland's limits.

Of course I'd rate Carbery ahead of him, but I also have concerns about Carbery's development that I don't think Munster have a good track record at fixing.

They signed JJ because they sign a lot of players and he was available and it was a win with fans.

You don't play as much as Keatley did for a side like Munster without being an effective professional. He's been dropped but always fought his way back in.

Johnny Holland was a good player but it's hard to say yoo much because he hardly played for Munster. He's basically in the Ian McKinley space, and McKinley was a very exciting and fairly complete player when he broke through.

"Fought his way back in"...no he hasn't. His form has not demanded selection, it's that others have either not stepped up or been unavailable.

Totally disagree on Holland, he looked like he might be their starting ten before he got injured. That's a big difference with McKinley, and is why it's important to my point, because it looked like he was going to overtake Keatley but was scuppered by injury.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Munster dropped TB for form and played Keatley before his latest injury. They also played K ahead of JJ whenever there was a crunch match before the fanservice dropping after Racing where he carried the can for the forwards failure to secure ruck ball or line out - I mean its not as if POM is droppable by any coach wanting to stay at Munster. But Keatley was a better line out option than him.

Given a free hand I can see Munster coaching going with the safer hand at the tiller in Keatley ahead of Carbery starting. There is nothing in the past few years to suggest otherwise.

Munster are death for outhalf - they want them to kick the leather off it like its 1999 and they have an all international pack against club sides.

I guess that Schmidt backs Carbery's confidence and skills to rise above this unlike the others. And if it doesn't work out he and Ireland are no worse off.

They may be right but outside of that risk the only good thing about this move is that he will, if selected at 20, play outside Murray a bit more.

You're obsessed with this idea of Munster being a graveyard for tens but I still don't see the evidence for it.

Like I said in the Munster thread when you were on about this...TB got injured, JJ isn't a ten IMO, and Keatley was never good enough. I'd add Holland to those names because I forgot to at the time. How did they mess up their develpment exactly? They either weren't up to it or were injured.

"Nothing in the last few years to suggest otherwise"...who is going to repeat those decisions? Felix Jones only joined the coaching staff in 2016 and Van Graan only joined last November or so. Erasmus and Foley are gone, you don't think that the current coaches might be different?

Speaking of the current coaches...they could have done with kicking an awful lot more against Racing. I don't agree with this idea that they just want to kick, they kept running into brick walls that day until Racing gave up and then the grubber behind was a good option. TB certainly got their backs playing well when he was in form last season. To my mind Munster have played themselves into trouble in some of their big games recently, definitely haven't kicked too much.

Also think the idea of Keatley being dropped to placate the fans is bullshit. He was shite against Racing and they needed something different so they tried it. POM probably kept his place because he's a Grand Slam winner, leader, they had fewer options to replace him, and expected him to perform better...and didn't he do that? He was good against us. Why argue with a good decision? Why focus on POM when others were sh!t too? The idea that it was fan led doesn't make sense when you consider that they were also happy to bench Zebo for the Racing game, that doesn't sound like weak management or scapegoating of an outsider to me.

[Blueberry]

One of the issues we face is that we still await the next IRFU strategic plan which has now lapsed. In the previous plans there were clear objectives for Ireland the provinces in terms of winning things. It's also really difficult to follow the business plans for each entity because of the vagueries of the accounts and the joint contractual ownership of players.

Elite organisations tend to focus on their strengths and build them whether it be sports or business. The IRFU's workings with the provinces seems to focus Ireland towards the elite but in provincial terms, they seem to take the opposite approach with both funding and players.

This to me is the nub of the problem here - we don't have a clear understanding of a strategy and way forward as to how and what's acceptable structures for the provinces and players and the way they interact with the national team.

Personally, I think the provinces should be tasked with bringing as much local talent through as they can, supplemented by a handful of NIQ's but with the aim of keeping the provinces primarily local player based and supporting their academies etc. This maintains for me the one great strength of Irish Rugby, that our winning provinces have been primarily local talent in the last decade or so be it the Munster winning teams of 06 and 08 or Leinster for our recent 4 wins. This is a unique strength not present In France or England and it's this that has given us a great strength. It produces great Irish players as their provincial rivalry pushes things forward and as they compete at the top table in Europe. If one province (like Leinster currently) is producing decent quality players over and above what they need, no harm in those players in limited numbers looking for contracts elsewhere but only if they are surplus to requirements and not blocking academy progression from their new province - i.e players getting little or no game-time, not required by Leinster or are out of contract, they may personally opt or be guided to move to another province as long as the numbers are limited and it's not impacting on player throughput from that provinces academy or club progression. Stick to this approach and we will find the gems. Bring in Saffers, poach anything you can on the open market and you won't find the gems.

If the IRFU wants to just turn Irish rugby into a giant pool of professional players playing in Team Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht with no regard for player origination and also shoving them around as a national coach sees fit for whatever reason, fine, but to me you've just killed the single greatest thing in Irish rugby and I think it will damage our provincial appeal and this long term will impact on our success, provincially and nationally.

I think we've seen by having good local provincial teams we can mix it at the top table in Europe (wins in 06,08, 09, 11, 12 and 18) and these players come through to the national side. Don't underestimate how important it is to have a winning provincial team, winning and mixing this form into the national team.

Maybe I'm a bit of an old romantic but local lads playing for the provinces is to me the golden thing we have here. Right now while Leinster are doing this Munster are not and are losing their way rapidly. It's that simple and this move of Carbery is a significant issue, as to me it's a marker that the IRFU are possibly less concerned or just don't understand the importance of what we have here. They are also not seeing the current Munster issue and are making it worse by these types of moves.

Park the blue tinted 'I'm annoyed that Munster poached Carbery' glasses for a moment, this issue, has perhaps, just highlighted to many of us, an issue which long-term may become a serious problem.

Anyway I ain't happy, this whole thing has been a mess, an unwelcome distraction post the best season we've ever had and it's left a sour taste. If it all sounds a bit parochial, I'm not apologising. For me if we look after the best interests of our provinces we'll collectively produce a bunch of competitive players raised on great local rivalry and the national pool will look after itself. Mix in a world class coach (like we have) and it'll be fine..........don't dilute the provincial identity. It's gold dust.

[COYBIB]

I'm being perfectly serious here.

It would make as much, if not significantly more sense, to move Conor Murray to Leinster in a world cup year to play with the rest of the Irish team and build his partnership with Sexton in a world cup year...

The whole thing is laughable, and yet, here we are, at square one with no solution to the problem that started this whole debate... somehow Munster edged into the conversation, took the best resource and then left...

Why is the finished article player always poached? Clearly the issue isn't with how well Leinster can develop players, but how poor the other provinces, particularly Munster, are at developing them. They have an U20 All Black world cup winning captain and an Irish 10 who beat the All Blacks and played in an U20 world cup final on their books. The raw materials isn't the problem.

What I want to know is what's in any of this for Leinster?

There must be a reaction from the Leinster branch, to the extent of tendering private funding. The IRFU (and Munster and Ulster and Connacht) need Leinster rugby a hell of a lot more than Leinster need the IRFU. They have become an anchor on the province and now they're starting to take the piss. There must be a reaction. A message has to be sent that raiding Leinster isn't the answer, getting the other provinces to up their standards and their conversion rate on young talent is the problem, and that's what needs to be addressed.

Leinster should demand significant budget increase out of Munsters budget to compensate for the thousands of coaching hours and hundreds of thousands of euro invested in this kid to get him to where he is, a move like this should see a significant forfeit of budget and potentially also NIQ spots (not given to us, just taken away) in order to force development.