Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby Dave Cahill » October 3rd, 2018, 2:21 pm

wixfjord wrote:'Strung us along'? :lol:
We're a professional rugby organisation, not a feckin jilted bride left at the altar!

He verbally agreed a contract, and then the scenario changed so he changed his mind. That's life. That's pro rugby.


It has reprecussions for Leinster though, beyond just the loss of a player. Teams don't just plan a season or two ahead - the Academy intake this year is based in great part upon what the needs of the team will be in four or five years time. Guys leaving mid-contract throw that planning badly out of line because not only do you suddenly have a hole to fill now that you hadn't planned on needing to fill you also don't have a guy scheduled to come on line in three or four years time - every cab has moved one up on the rank because a guy has left, but you're one cab short down the line.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby Dave Cahill » October 3rd, 2018, 2:22 pm

Theleinsterlad wrote:Just to remind again that Leinster is made up of 12 counties not just Dublin. This should be remembered when make a snide remark at Munster....


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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby cormac » October 3rd, 2018, 2:24 pm

johng wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:
johng wrote:Is it any different to Robbie Henshaw coming here?


Henshaw was out of contract.
Carbery was not.

Was it Conway who claimed he was out of contract when he moved but there were suspicions otherwise?


It was announced by Leinster that Conway signed a two-year deal in 2012. Unfortunately the original article from leinsterrugby.ie is no longer available, but here's a report based on it from a reliable source.

https://dementedmole.com/2012/05/02/lei ... contracts/

Conway's departure was announced in January 2013.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby curates_egg » October 3rd, 2018, 2:24 pm

wixfjord wrote:
He verbally agreed a contract, and then the scenario changed so he changed his mind. That's life. That's pro rugby.


The whole point is that he was bound by a signed and sealed contract for another season. This verbal discussion on improving his contract is neither here nor there (although provinces are not allowed to outbid each other, according to the IRFU rules that apply to everyone except Munster): he broke a contract, under advice from the Irish coach.
Carbery is gone, but I don't want that to be allowed to happen again.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby curates_egg » October 3rd, 2018, 2:30 pm

Theleinsterlad wrote:Just to remind again that Leinster is made up of 12 counties not just Dublin. This should be remembered when make a snide remark at Munster....


I see you are new on here, but I really don't think you need to be taking offence at a description of Munster as turnip jugglers because you are not from Dublin. I'm not even sure how you are making the leap that you could or should take offence but, firstly, turnip juggling was a term coined years ago to refer to Munster's back play (such as it was), and secondly, it wasn't coined by me, so please direct your ire towards Larkin or whoever it was that coined it.

Here's Eddie Butler in 2006 https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2006/ ... on.comment. Feel free to ask him to take it back.
I'm not saying you have identity issues..but I still find it a bit odd that you would take offence at slagging Munster because you are not from Dublin, yet a Leinster fan.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby wixfjord » October 3rd, 2018, 3:15 pm

curates_egg wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
He verbally agreed a contract, and then the scenario changed so he changed his mind. That's life. That's pro rugby.


The whole point is that he was bound by a signed and sealed contract for another season. This verbal discussion on improving his contract is neither here nor there (although provinces are not allowed to outbid each other, according to the IRFU rules that apply to everyone except Munster): he broke a contract, under advice from the Irish coach.
Carbery is gone, but I don't want that to be allowed to happen again.


Well I was responding to a post from another poster about it, which you edited out.

Do we know Munster outbid Leinster by the way?

We can want what we like, but the facts are the IRFU will continue to do what's primarily good for the national side, which our primary goal is to feed.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby curates_egg » October 3rd, 2018, 4:27 pm

wixfjord wrote:the national side, which our primary goal is to feed.


You keep repeating this. I dispute it.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby wixfjord » October 3rd, 2018, 4:30 pm

curates_egg wrote:
wixfjord wrote:the national side, which our primary goal is to feed.


You keep repeating this. I dispute it.


You can dispute all you want, but Leinster is owned by and is a branch of the IRFU. Our mandate is firstly to produce players for Ireland, and the national side is what keeps the branch in business, not the other way around. The system priorities the national team.

It might not be palatable to us as Leinster fans first and foremost, but the sooner we accept it the saner we'll be.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby Dave Cahill » October 3rd, 2018, 5:16 pm

wixfjord wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
wixfjord wrote:the national side, which our primary goal is to feed.


You keep repeating this. I dispute it.


You can dispute all you want, but Leinster is owned by and is a branch of the IRFU. Our mandate is firstly to produce players for Ireland, and the national side is what keeps the branch in business, not the other way around. The system priorities the national team.

It might not be palatable to us as Leinster fans first and foremost, but the sooner we accept it the saner we'll be.


Thats mainly true, but not the whole picture. Irish Professional rugby certainly couldn't survive without the massive cash cow that is the national team, but Professional rugby in Ireland won't survive without the provinces either. Take a look at NZ and Aus, two countries with systems very similar to ours. Once the union turned what were once teams based around and on a particular geographic region into franchises with no real geographical ties, their finances all but collapsed, needing Lions tours to bail them out.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby johng » October 3rd, 2018, 5:19 pm

curates_egg wrote:
wixfjord wrote:the national side, which our primary goal is to feed.


You keep repeating this. I dispute it.

I like it. Trying to reshape the outside world to match the one in your head. :)

The force is strong in this one.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby Lar » October 3rd, 2018, 5:45 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
You can dispute all you want, but Leinster is owned by and is a branch of the IRFU. Our mandate is firstly to produce players for Ireland, and the national side is what keeps the branch in business, not the other way around. The system priorities the national team.

It might not be palatable to us as Leinster fans first and foremost, but the sooner we accept it the saner we'll be.


Thats mainly true, but not the whole picture. Irish Professional rugby certainly couldn't survive without the massive cash cow that is the national team, but Professional rugby in Ireland won't survive without the provinces either. Take a look at NZ and Aus, two countries with systems very similar to ours. Once the union turned what were once teams based around and on a particular geographic region into franchises with no real geographical ties, their finances all but collapsed, needing Lions tours to bail them out.


Well said. I actually have a much bigger issue with Munster being allowed to sign so many South Africans (including into the Academy) than I do with Leinster players going to Munster. The reason I am annoyed about Carbery and why he is so different is because he still had a year to run on his contract. This sends a signal to players that contracts are potentially not to be respected. It sends the same signal to other provinces and worse still to English and French Clubs. I am sad that Nordi left for Ulster but that was at the end of his contract and he chose to move.

The Irish team needs the provinces for two primary reasons: (a) to provide players with top class competitions to play in throughout the season; and (b) to provide academies to develop players who have potential to be internationals. That is why Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht are vital to the IRFU. That is also why the national team might always be no. 1 but the provinces should be a very close second, and certainly not so far down the pecking order that their wishes should not be respected. Anything else and the system will die.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby Peg Leg » October 3rd, 2018, 5:58 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Theleinsterlad wrote:Just to remind again that Leinster is made up of 12 counties not just Dublin. This should be remembered when make a snide remark at Munster....


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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby deco » October 3rd, 2018, 6:01 pm

"Professional rugby certainly couldn't survive without the massive cash cow that is the national team, but Professional rugby in Ireland won't survive without the provinces either."

This is the point that most folk miss. My only issue is the reliance on one province to supply the national team and to shore up the weaker provinces. There should be an incentive for the provinces to produce players, not the other way around.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby Ruckedtobits » October 3rd, 2018, 7:28 pm

wixfjord wrote:
colster wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Does it reflect badly on Carbery? Choosing to move to further his career and get more game time? I'd say it's the professional thing to do for him.


Apart from the fact that he strung Leinster along for months, with all his comments implying that he's happy to stay, verbally agreeing a contract, then close to the end of the season announcing that he's leaving.


'Strung us along'? :lol:
We're a professional rugby organisation, not a feckin jilted bride left at the altar!

He verbally agreed a contract, and then the scenario changed so he changed his mind. That's life. That's pro rugby.

I find the need to apportion blame a bit ridiculous here. We've now taken aim at Carbery, Munster, IRFU, Joe and Nucifora.

There's no blame here. He's a big boy who made a logical decision after getting the green light from the people who ultimately pay his wages.

We can either complain about being 'screwed' incessantly all season, or hope that Ross Byrne comes good on the promise that he has shown already.

As Dave Cahill has pointed out on here, Ross might be a better fit for us at 10 anyway...


Not factually quite so simple. He was in contract when he left to go elsewhere. Yes, he was in the process of negotiating a Contract extension with improved terms, but he was in Contract with Leinster.

Whilst I consider the move will probably prove benefical to Ireland and is thus the right move for the IRFU, I believe that ignoring legal contracts can set a precedence which can cause long-term damage to credibility of IRFU and the Provinces.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby wixfjord » October 3rd, 2018, 7:34 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
Not factually quite so simple. He was in contract when he left to go elsewhere. Yes, he was in the process of negotiating a Contract extension with improved terms, but he was in Contract with Leinster.

Whilst I consider the move will probably prove benefical to Ireland and is thus the right move for the IRFU, I believe that ignoring legal contracts can set a precedence which can cause long-term damage to credibility of IRFU and the Provinces.


I didn't say he was out of contract.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby wixfjord » October 3rd, 2018, 7:48 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Thats mainly true, but not the whole picture. Irish Professional rugby certainly couldn't survive without the massive cash cow that is the national team, but Professional rugby in Ireland won't survive without the provinces either. Take a look at NZ and Aus, two countries with systems very similar to ours. Once the union turned what were once teams based around and on a particular geographic region into franchises with no real geographical ties, their finances all but collapsed, needing Lions tours to bail them out.


Sure, it's a mutually dependant relationship. I'm not denigrating the importance of strong provinces at all.

Also I'm sure you're aware Dave there were many other factors that played into financial issues in Aus and NZ rugby.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby Peg Leg » October 3rd, 2018, 8:42 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
Thats mainly true, but not the whole picture. Irish Professional rugby certainly couldn't survive without the massive cash cow that is the national team, but Professional rugby in Ireland won't survive without the provinces either. Take a look at NZ and Aus, two countries with systems very similar to ours. Once the union turned what were once teams based around and on a particular geographic region into franchises with no real geographical ties, their finances all but collapsed, needing Lions tours to bail them out.


Sure, it's a mutually dependant relationship. I'm not denigrating the importance of strong provinces at all.

Also I'm sure you're aware Dave there were many other factors that played into financial issues in Aus and NZ rugby.
Lile the complete collapse of the sponsorship market, but that will never happen here!
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby blockhead » October 3rd, 2018, 9:32 pm

Peg Leg wrote:Lile the complete collapse of the sponsorship market, but that will never happen here!


Six Nations cash will drop to just £6m as rugby’s sponsorship market shows signs of decline
Posted on October 2, 2018

By Peter Jackson
The Six Nations are resigned to taking another hefty hit this season over the depreciating value of their title sponsorship.

Last year the Unions running the tournament rejected an offer of £14m-a-year from RBS after Scotland and Wales objected, claiming the event was worth more. Within months the value had shrivelled by a third to £9m. Now it has fallen again, by as much as a third.

Tournament organisers are ready to accept £6m for this year’s 15 matches.

Only 18 months ago they believed their title sponsorship was worth £100m over six years, the equivalent of £16.6m a year.


Despite talking to more than 100 multi-national companies none was prepared to come anywhere near the RBS £14m. It triggered a chain of events which ended with the resignation of the man who had helped build the tournament into a roaring commercial success, chief executive John Feehan.

The Six Nations are far from alone in feeling the chill wind of a volatile market. The Champions’ Cup has also suffered from a spectacular devaluation in title sponsorship.

When the clubs wrenched control of the Heineken Cup from the national Unions in 2014, the Dutch beer company was paying £10m-a-year.

The English and French clubs, backed by the four Welsh regions, believed their competition had been under-sold. They wanted six elite sponsors paying £3m each but failed to raise anywhere near the projected £18m.

Heineken stayed in at £3m as one of the few. Now that the organisers, EPCR, have changed their policy, Heineken have been restored as sole sponsors but at £5.5m a year almost half the price they had been paying four years ago.


The English domestic game has also suffered. Aviva extended their sponsorship of the Premiership last year at a reduced rate before being succeeded by another insurance company, Gallagher.

Paul Vaughan, chief executive of Rugby World Cup 2015 and now senior consultant of global sports media company, ISG Live, has unrivalled experience of the rugby market.

He is not surprised at the decline. “This has nothing to do with Brexit,’’ he said. “The world has changed. The market has changed in a big way accordingly and it probably affects rugby more than any other sports.

“The objectives of sponsors are not necessarily about brand-awareness and exposure as they used to be. Most brands want more connectivity with their consumers.

“The Champions’ Cup was doing very well with its title sponsor when it decided to go down the Champions’ League football route of six-to-eight elite sponsors.

“The football competition delivers massive media coverage on a pan-European scale with advertising guarantees around it. It is very difficult to sell a (rugby) competition which has a limited geography.’’


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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby Peg Leg » October 3rd, 2018, 10:18 pm

blockhead wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Lile the complete collapse of the sponsorship market, but that will never happen here!


Six Nations cash will drop to just £6m as rugby’s sponsorship market shows signs of decline
Posted on October 2, 2018

By Peter Jackson
The Six Nations are resigned to taking another hefty hit this season over the depreciating value of their title sponsorship.

Last year the Unions running the tournament rejected an offer of £14m-a-year from RBS after Scotland and Wales objected, claiming the event was worth more. Within months the value had shrivelled by a third to £9m. Now it has fallen again, by as much as a third.

Tournament organisers are ready to accept £6m for this year’s 15 matches.

Only 18 months ago they believed their title sponsorship was worth £100m over six years, the equivalent of £16.6m a year.


Despite talking to more than 100 multi-national companies none was prepared to come anywhere near the RBS £14m. It triggered a chain of events which ended with the resignation of the man who had helped build the tournament into a roaring commercial success, chief executive John Feehan.

The Six Nations are far from alone in feeling the chill wind of a volatile market. The Champions’ Cup has also suffered from a spectacular devaluation in title sponsorship.

When the clubs wrenched control of the Heineken Cup from the national Unions in 2014, the Dutch beer company was paying £10m-a-year.

The English and French clubs, backed by the four Welsh regions, believed their competition had been under-sold. They wanted six elite sponsors paying £3m each but failed to raise anywhere near the projected £18m.

Heineken stayed in at £3m as one of the few. Now that the organisers, EPCR, have changed their policy, Heineken have been restored as sole sponsors but at £5.5m a year almost half the price they had been paying four years ago.


The English domestic game has also suffered. Aviva extended their sponsorship of the Premiership last year at a reduced rate before being succeeded by another insurance company, Gallagher.

Paul Vaughan, chief executive of Rugby World Cup 2015 and now senior consultant of global sports media company, ISG Live, has unrivalled experience of the rugby market.

He is not surprised at the decline. “This has nothing to do with Brexit,’’ he said. “The world has changed. The market has changed in a big way accordingly and it probably affects rugby more than any other sports.

“The objectives of sponsors are not necessarily about brand-awareness and exposure as they used to be. Most brands want more connectivity with their consumers.

“The Champions’ Cup was doing very well with its title sponsor when it decided to go down the Champions’ League football route of six-to-eight elite sponsors.

“The football competition delivers massive media coverage on a pan-European scale with advertising guarantees around it. It is very difficult to sell a (rugby) competition which has a limited geography.’’


No, never happen here,
Yeah, that was tongue in cheek. Will Scotland and Wales ever understand what value is and stop f%~king it all up for the rest of us? That story is a sobering reality for proffessional rugby.
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Re: Leinster's Halfback Options going forward

Postby Ruckedtobits » October 4th, 2018, 7:51 am

IRFU have already lost Ulster Bank as sponsor of All Ireland League with no replacement in sight. Sponsorship of sport has been proven across the world to be vulnerable to impact of social media re player behaviour. The Premiership and Top 14 Rugby will also both feel the impact shortly.

Nothing is forever so sports authorities better cherish their live fans, not take them for granted as has been the recent experience.
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