Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Channel)

A forum for true blue Leinster supporters to talk about and support their team

Moderator: moderators

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby paddyor » November 4th, 2017, 7:00 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:JGP wasn't one of the worst players on display, but like a lot of fans, I just find it frustrating when he's not up to a very high expected standard. We have had to make do with just 3 NIQ signings to shore up our second string team. When any of the precious few slots get filled by someone who makes lots of mistakes, it rankles. There's plenty of examples from the last decade where an NIQ got a disproportionate hard time from us.

I'll tell you who really does get an easy ride here who probably shouldn't: Ross Moloney. I just don't know what he's good at. The lineouts were much more his fault than Cronin. He wasn't remotely physical enough. He missed important tackles. He didn't calm the team down when he needed to as Captain. Really frustrating to watch.

Molony is 4th choice lock, all fit and available he's not in the 23. He missed 1 tackle (a fact that is regularly mentioned) last night. The common thread in our malfunctioning lineout isn't Ross Molony.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2974
Joined: November 17th, 2012, 12:48 am

Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Channel)

Postby artaneboy » November 4th, 2017, 7:06 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:JGP wasn't one of the worst players on display, but like a lot of fans, I just find it frustrating when he's not up to a very high expected standard. We have had to make do with just 3 NIQ signings to shore up our second string team. When any of the precious few slots get filled by someone who makes lots of mistakes, it rankles. There's plenty of examples from the last decade where an NIQ got a disproportionate hard time from us.

I'll tell you who really does get an easy ride here who probably shouldn't: Ross Moloney. I just don't know what he's good at. The lineouts were much more his fault than Cronin. He wasn't remotely physical enough. He missed important tackles. He didn't calm the team down when he needed to as Captain. Really frustrating to watch.


Yeah- that’s an understandable frustrated reaction. But is not realistic- not to get into the whole “fair” thing. We cannot expect to get ‘Isa standard’ NIQ each time. But Jamison is a quality player with a high level of the basic skills in what’s relatively a weak position for us, since the retirement, almost together of Reddan and Boss. That’s surely the requirement of an NIQ- not to be a so-called “franchise player”. This ain’t the NBA.

I don’t even see why it’s a debate. There’s no phenomenal native prospect being excluded by his presence. McCarthy is a good to excellent candidate. But he’s also definitely behind both JGP and McGrath- at the this moment of his development. And that development- and the team’s progress, won’t be helped by exposing him to playing on weakened teams- which would be his fate, if he was to be selected in front of JGP. Why can’t there be an appreciation of what both bring, a la Issac/ Redser, and- where necessary, a reasoned critique of their performances, without praise for one being seen by far too many, as to the detriment of the other.

The case of Strauss arriving as a ‘project’ hooker is an interesting contrast. His long term scrap with Cronin for the 2 spot never had this level of invective. It was at face value a very similar situation- both players having identified strengths and weaknesses, etc. Maybe a key difference is that Sean was originally a Munster player, where Luke was a long-hoped-for native quality SH?

In any case, I hate this zero-sum game of comparisons with Luke. Neither frontline player is the complete package- similarly to Reddan/ Boss before them. But posting here, (and I don’t entirely always excuse myself on this) seems to have settled into a bipolar mode.

Now... just watching the match and I honestly think Jamie played very well. We expect his excellent passing, but he kicked well (most of the time) and did really well to snipe for his try. Even one great steal from George Horne at the back of a scrum. One or two debatable decisions- but that’s the tariff on any SH, with their high level of engagement. Given our weak team, away to a smarting Glasgow on that pitch, I’m not sure we even underperformed. But if we did, JGP wasn’t the cause. Lack of precision in the pack at the line-out over the 80 minutes and missed tackles by a number of players when down to 14 men for 10 minutes, are more plausible reasons. And, while Nick McCarthy played well in his extended cameo, I’d suggest it’s risible to suggest (as it was by one) that the performance of the team improved with JGP and the other starters replacement on 52 minutes. Where’s the evidence on the scoreboard or elsewhere for that assertion? The greater physical strength of our replacement pack did grind them down, but there was no rapier to finish them off.

On a different point- Ross Maloney did protest the blocking of Glasgow for the first try of Murphy’s YC period- perhaps a bit too loudly, and was admonished by the ref. I suspect that dampened Ross’ confidence after that. Line-out was a bit of a mess- but often is against Scottish teams- particularly with weak reffing.

There is a point in the relative poor form of Leavy and Cronin. Neither is the force of nature of recent vintage. Post-injury lack of confidence, but we need them up to speed in this AI period.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by artaneboy on November 4th, 2017, 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
User avatar
artaneboy
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2622
Joined: January 25th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby CiaranIrl » November 4th, 2017, 7:19 pm

Yeah, I think that's all pretty reasonable Artaneboy. I think his mistakes have a habit of being incredibly noticeable though. Like firing hospital passes. The ire is a bit over the top though. The difference between him and Strauss is that JGP arrived with a heap of expectations. 3 seasons with the blues and backing up one of the best9s in the world will do that. Strauss had no reputation whatsoever around here, bar a famous cousin.
“As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.”
User avatar
CiaranIrl
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: April 27th, 2009, 11:23 am
Location: Dun Laoghaire

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » November 4th, 2017, 7:27 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:J

I'll tell you who really does get an easy ride here who probably shouldn't: Ross Moloney. I just don't know what he's good at. The lineouts were much more his fault than Cronin. He wasn't remotely physical enough. He missed important tackles. He didn't calm the team down when he needed to as Captain. Really frustrating to watch.


You're someone whose opinion I really respect but I thought he was good :lol:

If we're going down the route of pointing fingers like that then I would say that Ross Byrne was far more culpable and it hasn't really been mentioned. He moved the ball pretty well but offered very little control, didn't manage the game at all.

I think it's wrong to zero in on anyone after last night though. The defence from the whole team was dreadful, the lineout went to shit, and the halfbacks didn't control things at all. Everything combined to create a bit of a sh!t show. One example really summed up the general malaise IMO. When JGP chipped over the top before the length of the field try it wasn't a great option and was poorly executed but it also wasn't completely terrible, but we didn't keep any kind of line across the pitch which meant a couple of players were totally isolated and desperately covering ground, and as Glasgow went further down the pitch it seemed like not one of the Leinster players who had been on the left hand side of the pitch behind the kick had bothered to chase back. It may have stemmed from the kick, but pretty much the entire team was culpable.
User avatar
LeRouxIsPHat
Shane Horgan
 
Posts: 10384
Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby CiaranIrl » November 4th, 2017, 7:38 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
CiaranIrl wrote:J

I'll tell you who really does get an easy ride here who probably shouldn't: Ross Moloney. I just don't know what he's good at. The lineouts were much more his fault than Cronin. He wasn't remotely physical enough. He missed important tackles. He didn't calm the team down when he needed to as Captain. Really frustrating to watch.


You're someone whose opinion I really respect but I thought he was good :lol:

If we're going down the route of pointing fingers like that then I would say that Ross Byrne was far more culpable and it hasn't really been mentioned. He moved the ball pretty well but offered very little control, didn't manage the game at all.

I think it's wrong to zero in on anyone after last night though. The defence from the whole team was dreadful, the lineout went to shit, and the halfbacks didn't control things at all. Everything combined to create a bit of a sh!t show. One example really summed up the general malaise IMO. When JGP chipped over the top before the length of the field try it wasn't a great option and was poorly executed but it also wasn't completely terrible, but we didn't keep any kind of line across the pitch which meant a couple of players were totally isolated and desperately covering ground, and as Glasgow went further down the pitch it seemed like not one of the Leinster players who had been on the left hand side of the pitch behind the kick had bothered to chase back. It may have stemmed from the kick, but pretty much the entire team was culpable.


Ah, you're right on the finger pointing front. It was definitely a team failure more than anything. I didn't mean to come across as dumping all the blame on one person. I just mean that some players get away blamelessly with a lot more mistakes. Same as your point about Ross Byrne I guess, which is also fair.

I suppose in a match like that where everything falls apart and seems a bit disorganised, I think the captain needs to take a bit of responsibility.
“As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.”
User avatar
CiaranIrl
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: April 27th, 2009, 11:23 am
Location: Dun Laoghaire

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby wixfjord » November 4th, 2017, 7:38 pm

artaneboy wrote:
CiaranIrl wrote:JGP wasn't one of the worst players on display, but like a lot of fans, I just find it frustrating when he's not up to a very high expected standard. We have had to make do with just 3 NIQ signings to shore up our second string team. When any of the precious few slots get filled by someone who makes lots of mistakes, it rankles. There's plenty of examples from the last decade where an NIQ got a disproportionate hard time from us.

I'll tell you who really does get an easy ride here who probably shouldn't: Ross Moloney. I just don't know what he's good at. The lineouts were much more his fault than Cronin. He wasn't remotely physical enough. He missed important tackles. He didn't calm the team down when he needed to as Captain. Really frustrating to watch.


Yeah- that’s an understandable frustrated reaction. But is not realistic- not to get into the whole “fair” thing. We cannot expect to get ‘Isa standard’ NIQ each time. But Jamison is a quality player with a high level of the basic skills in what’s relatively a weak position for us, since the retirement, almost together of Reddan and Boss. That’s surely the requirement of an NIQ- not to be a so-called “franchise player”. This ain’t the NBA.

I don’t even see why it’s a debate. There’s no phenomenal native prospect being excluded by his presence. McCarthy is a good to excellent candidate. But he’s also definitely behind both JGP and McGrath- at the this moment of his development. And that development- and the team’s progress, won’t be helped by exposing him to playing on weakened teams- which would be his fate, if he was to be selected in front of JGP. Why can’t there be an appreciation of what both bring, a la Issac/ Redser, and- where necessary, a reasoned critique of their performances, without praise for one being seen by far too many, as to the detriment of the other.

The case of Strauss arriving as a ‘project’ hooker is an interesting contrast. His long term scrap with Cronin for the 2 spot never had this level of invective. It was at face value a very similar situation- both players having identified strengths and weaknesses, etc. Maybe a key difference is that Sean was originally a Munster player, where Luke was a long-hoped-for native quality SH?

In any case, I hate this zero-sum game of comparisons with Luke. Neither frontline player is the complete package- similarly to Reddan/ Boss before them. But posting here, (and I don’t entirely always excuse myself on this) seems to have settled into a bipolar mode.

Now... just watching the match and I honestly think Jamie played very well. We expect his excellent passing, but he kicked well (most of the time) and did really well to snipe for his try. Even one great steal from George Horne at the back of a scrum. One or two debatable decisions- but that’s the tariff on any SH, with their high level of engagement. Given our weak team, away to a smarting Glasgow on that pitch, I’m not sure we even underperformed. But if we did, JGP wasn’t the cause. Lack of precision in the pack at the line-out over the 80 minutes and missed tackles by a number of players when down to 14 men for 10 minutes, are more plausible reasons. And, while Nick McCarthy played well in his extended cameo, I’d suggest it’s risible to suggest (as it was by one) that the performance of the team improved with JGP and the other starters replacement on 52 minutes. Where’s the evidence on the scoreboard or elsewhere for that assertion? The greater physical strength of our replacement pack did grind them down, but there was no rapier to finish them off.

On a different point- Ross Maloney did protest the blocking of Glasgow for the first try of Murphy’s YC period- perhaps a bit to loudly, and was admonished by the red. I suspect that dampened Ross’ confidence after that. Line-out was a bit of a mess- but often is against Scottish teams- particularly with weak reffing.

There is a point in the relative poor form of Leavy and Cronin. Neither is the force of nature of recent vintage. Post-injury lack of confidence, but we need them up to speed in this AI period.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I wasn't looking to get dragged into this, but look since you directly referred to me, I think I should respond.

Firstly, nobody is looking for Isa standard for all our NIQs, that would be unrealistic.

However, to say that 'unfair' or 'distasteful' to critique consistent poor performances is incorrect. And a bit ridiculous. (And particularly a bit ironic for some of those who hounded MOC for so long to compare it to that. Now that *was* distasteful. )

If you think that Gibson Park played 'very well' last night, then that's a perfect example of the polarisation and bias at play in this whole discussion, and why I made the humorous remark about this.

As usual, and it's as regular as clockwork, he had some lovely rhythm, some nice breaks and sniped well. And also had some utterly brainless moments, some bad kicking and some bad decisions. You could copy and paste those last two lines into the description of most of his games.

That's the problem.

If that's a 'very good' performance, then you have a different definition of it than I.

The perfect summary was the pass he threw to COB that caused a knock on in a great position. He got flustered, delayed the pass until COB was almost on top of him and being tackled by two players, and then absolutely fired it at his chest. And he mixes stuff like that with things like the steal from the scrum and the lovely snipe for the try.

That's why I referred to him as utterly frustrating, because if he cleaned up the errors and stupidity he'd be an excellent player, and a huge asset. Because his good stuff is really good. (A bit like Sean Cronin actually.)

As it is, he's a mix of huge asset and big liability, often within the same phase. And it's all fixable stuff if he just kept a cooler head. That kills a team that's struggling against a good side and missing lots of big players. (I actually believe he has far better raw materials than Luke McGrath or McCarthy, which again, makes it frustrating because he could be so much better.)

Last night actually wasn't his worst game by a long shot.

Finally, you directly refer to my post about McCarthy in bold.

I actually said:
"I can't help but thinking if McCarthy started and we were about 10% smarter there was at least 2 points there, if not 5."
So you're slightly misrepresenting it there.

The reason I said this, and I think this is also a consistent, Nick McCarthy suits R. Byrne's style much better. He's a much more orthodox scrum half with a better kicking game and more structured. We played into Glasgow's hands by playing unstructured, loose rugby and not using our pack advantage.

That's JGP's game, and my opinion is that a different style at 9 from the start would've suited us. I don't think that's 'risible' now is it? (Nor is it 'totally one eyed' :wink:)

(By the way, if you're following my posts, I actually didn't say he played particularly badly, just that he's infuriatingly frustrating, inconsistent and brainless at times.)

Hopefully I've explained myself there.

Now, after that brief interval, let the JGP Fundamentalist Group/Luke McGrath Supporter Club battle continue.
wixfjord
Malcolm O'Kelly
 
Posts: 3118
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby artaneboy » November 4th, 2017, 7:56 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:Yeah, I think that's all pretty reasonable Artaneboy. I think his mistakes have a habit of being incredibly noticeable though. Like firing hospital passes. The ire is a bit over the top though. The difference between him and Strauss is that JGP arrived with a heap of expectations. 3 seasons with the blues and backing up one of the best9s in the world will do that. Strauss had no reputation whatsoever around here, bar a famous cousin.

Hey- I never claimed JGP’s game was without flaws. I suppose there was a bit of hype here on Jamison- but just because he was benching behind a Great should hardly have been regarded by us as evidence of Jamison’s world class status. I think it is an understandable protectiveness of what was implicitly regarded as Luke’s assumption to be the first choice scrum-half. There’s been a quiet desperation among us as we await that next visit Leinster-raised quality SH of the professional era.

Obviously if either was clearly better than the other, it wouldn’t be as contentious. But they’re too close for that comfort. And inevitably both players flaws, rather than their merits fed to the fan dynamic: JGP’s occasional visible poor decisions and McGrath’s periods of weakness in a 9’s primary skill of passing.

Enough. I think we are well served st SH- it’s the line-out that’s worrying me! Why can’t we fix that bloody platform.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
User avatar
artaneboy
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2622
Joined: January 25th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » November 4th, 2017, 8:00 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:Ah, you're right on the finger pointing front. It was definitely a team failure more than anything.[b][b] I didn't mean to come across as dumping all the blame on one person. I just mean that some players get away blamelessly with a lot more mistakes. Same as your point about Ross Byrne I guess, which is also fair.[/b][/b]

I suppose in a match like that where everything falls apart and seems a bit disorganised, I think the captain needs to take a bit of responsibility.


Oh no I didn't think you were. Without saying it directly I was actually subtly referring to everyone being focused on JGP when there were so many other issues.
User avatar
LeRouxIsPHat
Shane Horgan
 
Posts: 10384
Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby ronk » November 4th, 2017, 8:07 pm

Just watched the frenetic 4 tries in the first 15 minutes.

Two observations:

JGP was excellent, scored a try and while they ran back a box kick it wasn’t bad and was more due to us overextending the chase in a greedy attempt to trap them, then missing tackles.

We fell asleep right after scoring and were immediately vulnerable. One restart we exited ok but left no pillar off the first ruck off the line out and they exploited easily. Another Deegan lost the ball and they were run into touch just before our line.


We were capable of hammering them but we didn’t tighten the screw and they had the quality to beat us once we put them in the right position. The priority area to work on is basic concentration. Another glaring example was Jordi Murphy complaining to the ref while they took a tap penalty and he ended up copping a yellow card.

Leinster have been masters at getting back 10 quickly and removing the options. Then you get your break. That slipped yesterday.
User avatar
ronk
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 8626
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 12:42 am

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby artaneboy » November 4th, 2017, 8:34 pm

wixfjord wrote:
artaneboy wrote:
CiaranIrl wrote:JGP wasn't one of the worst players on display, but like a lot of fans, I just find it frustrating when he's not up to a very high expected standard. We have had to make do with just 3 NIQ signings to shore up our second string team. When any of the precious few slots get filled by someone who makes lots of mistakes, it rankles. There's plenty of examples from the last decade where an NIQ got a disproportionate hard time from us.

I'll tell you who really does get an easy ride here who probably shouldn't: Ross Moloney. I just don't know what he's good at. The lineouts were much more his fault than Cronin. He wasn't remotely physical enough. He missed important tackles. He didn't calm the team down when he needed to as Captain. Really frustrating to watch.


Yeah- that’s an understandable frustrated reaction. But is not realistic- not to get into the whole “fair” thing. We cannot expect to get ‘Isa standard’ NIQ each time. But Jamison is a quality player with a high level of the basic skills in what’s relatively a weak position for us, since the retirement, almost together of Reddan and Boss. That’s surely the requirement of an NIQ- not to be a so-called “franchise player”. This ain’t the NBA.

I don’t even see why it’s a debate. There’s no phenomenal native prospect being excluded by his presence. McCarthy is a good to excellent candidate. But he’s also definitely behind both JGP and McGrath- at the this moment of his development. And that development- and the team’s progress, won’t be helped by exposing him to playing on weakened teams- which would be his fate, if he was to be selected in front of JGP. Why can’t there be an appreciation of what both bring, a la Issac/ Redser, and- where necessary, a reasoned critique of their performances, without praise for one being seen by far too many, as to the detriment of the other.

The case of Strauss arriving as a ‘project’ hooker is an interesting contrast. His long term scrap with Cronin for the 2 spot never had this level of invective. It was at face value a very similar situation- both players having identified strengths and weaknesses, etc. Maybe a key difference is that Sean was originally a Munster player, where Luke was a long-hoped-for native quality SH?

In any case, I hate this zero-sum game of comparisons with Luke. Neither frontline player is the complete package- similarly to Reddan/ Boss before them. But posting here, (and I don’t entirely always excuse myself on this) seems to have settled into a bipolar mode.

Now... just watching the match and I honestly think Jamie played very well. We expect his excellent passing, but he kicked well (most of the time) and did really well to snipe for his try. Even one great steal from George Horne at the back of a scrum. One or two debatable decisions- but that’s the tariff on any SH, with their high level of engagement. Given our weak team, away to a smarting Glasgow on that pitch, I’m not sure we even underperformed. But if we did, JGP wasn’t the cause. Lack of precision in the pack at the line-out over the 80 minutes and missed tackles by a number of players when down to 14 men for 10 minutes, are more plausible reasons. And, while Nick McCarthy played well in his extended cameo, I’d suggest it’s risible to suggest (as it was by one) that the performance of the team improved with JGP and the other starters replacement on 52 minutes. Where’s the evidence on the scoreboard or elsewhere for that assertion? The greater physical strength of our replacement pack did grind them down, but there was no rapier to finish them off.

On a different point- Ross Maloney did protest the blocking of Glasgow for the first try of Murphy’s YC period- perhaps a bit to loudly, and was admonished by the red. I suspect that dampened Ross’ confidence after that. Line-out was a bit of a mess- but often is against Scottish teams- particularly with weak reffing.

There is a point in the relative poor form of Leavy and Cronin. Neither is the force of nature of recent vintage. Post-injury lack of confidence, but we need them up to speed in this AI period.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I wasn't looking to get dragged into this, but look since you directly referred to me, I think I should respond.

Firstly, nobody is looking for Isa standard for all our NIQs, that would be unrealistic.

However, to say that 'unfair' or 'distasteful' to critique consistent poor performances is incorrect. And a bit ridiculous. (And particularly a bit ironic for some of those who hounded MOC for so long to compare it to that. Now that *was* distasteful. )

If you think that Gibson Park played 'very well' last night, then that's a perfect example of the polarisation and bias at play in this whole discussion, and why I made the humorous remark about this.

As usual, and it's as regular as clockwork, he had some lovely rhythm, some nice breaks and sniped well. And also had some utterly brainless moments, some bad kicking and some bad decisions. You could copy and paste those last two lines into the description of most of his games.

That's the problem.

If that's a 'very good' performance, then you have a different definition of it than I.

The perfect summary was the pass he threw to COB that caused a knock on in a great position. He got flustered, delayed the pass until COB was almost on top of him and being tackled by two players, and then absolutely fired it at his chest. And he mixes stuff like that with things like the steal from the scrum and the lovely snipe for the try.

That's why I referred to him as utterly frustrating, because if he cleaned up the errors and stupidity he'd be an excellent player, and a huge asset. Because his good stuff is really good. (A bit like Sean Cronin actually.)

As it is, he's a mix of huge asset and big liability, often within the same phase. And it's all fixable stuff if he just kept a cooler head. That kills a team that's struggling against a good side and missing lots of big players. (I actually believe he has far better raw materials than Luke McGrath or McCarthy, which again, makes it frustrating because he could be so much better.)

Last night actually wasn't his worst game by a long shot.

Finally, you directly refer to my post about McCarthy in bold.

I actually said:
"I can't help but thinking if McCarthy started and we were about 10% smarter there was at least 2 points there, if not 5."
So you're slightly misrepresenting it there.

The reason I said this, and I think this is also a consistent, Nick McCarthy suits R. Byrne's style much better. He's a much more orthodox scrum half with a better kicking game and more structured. We played into Glasgow's hands by playing unstructured, loose rugby and not using our pack advantage.

That's JGP's game, and my opinion is that a different style at 9 from the start would've suited us. I don't think that's 'risible' now is it? (Nor is it 'totally one eyed' :wink:)

(By the way, if you're following my posts, I actually didn't say he played particularly badly, just that he's infuriatingly frustrating, inconsistent and brainless at times.)

Hopefully I've explained myself there.

Now, after that brief interval, let the JGP Fundamentalist Group/Luke McGrath Supporter Club battle continue.

Okay, most of that is fair enough. I’m not going to agree with you on JGP’s performance last night, because I genuinely thought he played well- and was the man who might have guided us to the fourth try, and who knows after that... But I find mistakes from both Luke and Jameson incredibly frustrating- because as you note many of them are readily fixed.

Anyway, we can agree that both SHs need to improve. The good news is, I do believe that both are indeed improving. Hopefully if that continues, this often dreary debate may evolve into a collective recognition that we have two quality 9s a d how do we optimise their value to the club and team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
User avatar
artaneboy
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2622
Joined: January 25th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby Experimental » November 4th, 2017, 10:47 pm

Dont really get the JGP bashing myself really, he has lapses, but overall I think hes played pretty well for us. I think we were just very spoiled with Reddan who was a world class scrum half with multiple HC's etc to his name.
User avatar
Experimental
Bookworm
 
Posts: 211
Joined: December 16th, 2007, 5:08 am

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby ronk » November 4th, 2017, 10:59 pm

That dropped pass by COB from JGP looked like an early tackle on replay. It’s crossing if he holds the ball at that stage so you need him to attempt it anyway.
User avatar
ronk
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 8626
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 12:42 am

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby suisse » November 5th, 2017, 2:20 am

Experimental wrote:I think we were just very spoiled with Reddan who was a world class scrum half with multiple HC's etc to his name.


Wow. I like Reddan but labelling him world class is a massive exaggeration. He's gotta be one of the best in the world in his position to be considered world class. He was rarely the best in Ireland.
User avatar
suisse
Rob Kearney
 
Posts: 4660
Joined: April 2nd, 2007, 12:23 am
Location: Seoul, South Korea

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby artaneboy » November 5th, 2017, 9:30 am

suisse wrote:
Experimental wrote:I think we were just very spoiled with Reddan who was a world class scrum half with multiple HC's etc to his name.


Wow. I like Reddan but labelling him world class is a massive exaggeration. He's gotta be one of the best in the world in his position to be considered world class. He was rarely the best in Ireland.

I agree; Eoin was a very good player for us. But he was never world class. No shame in that of course. But what Reddan did have which was very valuable was a combination of smarts and courage. He had a great relationship with Sexton- but was strong enough psychologically to counterbalance Johnny in decision making.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Oh, I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused!"
User avatar
artaneboy
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2622
Joined: January 25th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby molloyjh » November 6th, 2017, 10:16 am

Gearzbox2 wrote:100%...Maloney wasn't up to it, they infringed 5 times in a row on our nail before he even spoke to ref and never addressed the ruck issue at all, they were grabbing/cleaning our guys 5m past ruck which was cynical


Molony absolutely did talk to the ref about them taking players beyond the ruck. The ref was just having none of it. Which I thought was a total joke as Glasgow had been doing exactly the same thing in the European game only 2 weeks before and were so blatant this time around as well and got 2 of their tries directly from this tactic. But it seemed anything went at the ruck. Just like their TH taking Jordi out while he tried to set up a ruck just before his yellow. Again, right in front of the ref and nothing. Until of course we had a chance at a really good advantage and suddenly he called taking players beyond the ruck then. What was even more confusing was he was letting us away with the same thing up until then too, although we got nothing from doing it. And the less said about the TMO at the end the better. I normally hate knocking officials but there were some incredible inconsistencies during the game that can't go unmentioned. I'm also convinced that pass to Nakawara for his break from their line was forward. And then there was upending players in mauls.......

All that said we still should have gotten the 4th try and come away with 2 points. I know we were lacking a lot of leadership, but we had so many opportunities we should have been able to finish off at least 1 of them, especially when they were down a man for 20 minutes. Last season we got well beaten by Scarlets at this time of year but despite Daly getting a red card we still managed to rescue something from that game. It's very disappointing that we couldn't do the same on Friday. I thought Cronin was poor enough given what he's capable of and JGP had some very poor moments but actually started to come good in the 5-10 mins before he came off. Fardy and ROL both went well in my book. ROL had a lot to do given he had COB inside to help out. Larmour again looked really good on the ball and Adam Byrne looked as confident as I've seen him all season. Deegan was good too and Ross Byrne went okay. He seems to be growing into the role more and more each week. Beyond that there was a lot of average.

We do normally ship a defeat at this time of the season and make up for it later on, generally in the 6Ns. With 2 games against Scarlets in that period let's hope that's the case as that period is going to be really crucial for us.
User avatar
molloyjh
Mullet
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: May 7th, 2009, 3:33 pm

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby fourthirtythree » November 6th, 2017, 10:41 am

Moloney can't make the ref be consistent, he tried, but no amount of leadershipping was going to work. Even if he had pointed, flapped, and showed his angry face... Some players have an international reputation and a relationship with the referee. None of them were on the pitch and none of ours do with that ref anyway.
You do miss the magic days when Leo could get a ref to go to the TMO after he'd blown the final whistle but...

As CiaranIRL says about JGP's mistakes being noticeable and ire directed at him an analogue might be how Rob Kearney is seen in Ireland. He is known as the worst tackler in the world and therefore unfit to play (his position makes the fewest tackles on the pitch, but never mind that) and people get really angry. I'm pretty sure I know why Schmidt plays him a lot: he stops attacks. His primary job is to ensure that the opposition don't get a simple kick to get out of jail and that when they do possession ends up with us. He's very good with that (that's why he "never attacks": he certainly does but if it's not definitely on, he doesn't).

Which is why I've been sceptical of Carberry at full back by the way, He has a tendency to give up around as many tries as he causes. Firstly by letting the ball bounce and therefore entering a lottery and secondly by haring into the attack. For example when he was MotM v Bath he was sensational obviously, but he also lost the ball which ultimately led to their scoring three times through silly runs with no support. The second failing he has got much better at I think, the first less so (see the Montpellier game). He needs games. And not, I think, international games to learn his craft.
Datta: what have we given?
My friend, blood shaking my heart
The awful daring of a moment's surrender
Which an age of prudence can never retract
What the thunder said to Brian Lenihan
User avatar
fourthirtythree
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 8586
Joined: April 12th, 2008, 11:33 pm
Location: Eight miles high

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby riocard911 » November 6th, 2017, 11:46 am

I wouldn't be too easy on Ross Byrne after that match. He made two absolutely dreadful passes - one over Ed Byrne's head while trying to run the ball back half way between our 22 and the 10 metre line, the second one I don't remember to whom. At any rate they both led to use being put back under the pump.
riocard911
Mullet
 
Posts: 1099
Joined: July 27th, 2015, 10:42 pm

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby kermischocolate » November 6th, 2017, 2:25 pm

molloyjh wrote:'m also convinced that pass to Nakawara for his break from their line was forward.


Unfortunately Nakarawa is still in Paris and hasn't come home yet. Oh for the day when he does!

I did wonder about that pass but Horne sends it from just in front of the tryline, Matawalu gets it beind it (just).

Still not entirely convinced by Grigg's first try-it looked short but not sure if he slid onto the line etc. Ref was right on top of it though hence didn't even go to TMO.

I thought the ref generally was consistently inconsistent for both sides.
User avatar
kermischocolate
Enlightened
 
Posts: 986
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 2:56 am
Location: Glasgow

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby molloyjh » November 6th, 2017, 2:35 pm

kermischocolate wrote:
molloyjh wrote:'m also convinced that pass to Nakawara for his break from their line was forward.


Unfortunately Nakarawa is still in Paris and hasn't come home yet. Oh for the day when he does!

I did wonder about that pass but Horne sends it from just in front of the tryline, Matawalu gets it beind it (just).

Still not entirely convinced by Grigg's first try-it looked short but not sure if he slid onto the line etc. Ref was right on top of it though hence didn't even go to TMO.

I thought the ref generally was consistently inconsistent for both sides.


You can tell it's a Monday can't you!? :oops:

I think Griggs did graze the line for his tbh. I'd need to watch the Matawalu break again. Oddly I wasn't up for watching the numerous replays of it on Alba. :lol:

Overall I thought the ref was okay in most areas. I just felt he was really poor at the ruck. I know I was giving out about Glasgow taking men beyond the ruck, but Leinster joined in as well. It was just infuriating that the only time he called it was for a Leinster advantage that looked to be creating a really good scoring opportunity. Yet he ignored it for Glasgows first and third despite it having a direct impact on the scores. I also thought the TMOs attempts to get Strauss carded at the end were incredibly poor. Footage clearly showed that Strauss made contact with the hands first yet he kept pushing the "led with his shoulder" angle.

The most frustrating thing about it all was the scheduling though. This should have been a marquee game for the league. Instead we saw one side that was a complete shadow side and another that wasn't far off it. We play Scarlets home and away during the 6Ns too which will be more of the same. Likely a Conference decider between 2 of the biggest sides in the league and both games will be missing the internationals. That's 3 of the biggest games in the competition being played in the international windows. That's just wrong.

Congrats on the win though all the same.
User avatar
molloyjh
Mullet
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: May 7th, 2009, 3:33 pm

Re: Glas vs Lein: Fri 3/11 19.35(BBC Alba / TG4 Youtube Chan

Postby mildlyinterested » November 6th, 2017, 2:37 pm

So the big sides should only play the weaker sides near intl windows to ensure stronger sides at other times?
mildlyinterested
Enlightened
 
Posts: 798
Joined: April 19th, 2017, 9:56 am

PreviousNext

Return to Leinster Addicts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], DMR2004, SemrushBot [Bot] and 9 guests