Lar wrote:Off topic a bit but hasn't the rise of John Cooney entirely justified the decision not to renew Pienaar's contract from an Irish perspective?
Not really, no. John Cooney is, at best, an average outhalf and will never play there for Ireland. How will it benefit Ireland if Ulster, including including Stockdale, Henderson, Best and John Cooney the scrumhalf are playing Challenge Cup rugby next year? This wasn't some sudden strike out of the blue, the IRFU knew that this was coming, they knew it when Jackson wasn't selected for the Chicago match, they knew it when he wasn't selected for the US portion of the summer tour. They knew that Ulster were going to be without their international outhalf for a significant proportion of this season and yet they forced an international outhalf out of the club. Also, wouldn't "the rise of John Cooney" be aided by having one of the best scrumhalves of the modern era playing beside him?
Actually the rumour I heard was that no one in Ulster rugby expected it to go to trial. Ulster expected to have Jackson available this season. I'm not sure you can blame Nucifora for listening to them on that.
And the fact they only signed an OH until January suggests they expected to have them back. Bear in mind the trial was put back due to a UK review of disclosure rules in rape trials.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
Dave Cahill wrote:
Who was responsible for forcing an international outhalf out of a club that was going to be without an international outhalf for the foreseeable future?
The incident is being stated to have occurred in June 2016. RP was announced to be leaving 31 Aug 2016 if the internet is correct. The tour to Chicago was Oct 2016 and that was the first hint that something was wrong.
None of us know who knew what and when. But I think it is reasonable to assume that the decision that RP was to leave was either too far gone or was done before anyone knew what was coming or even the extent of it.
Flash Gordon: "I totally agree with Dave that Ulster needs special attention as them not playing Champions Cup rugby would be an absolute disaster for them and Ireland. That should begin with firing Shane Logan. In fairness the IRFU have got key international class players to sign on again and are bringing in genuine quality in Murphy, Cooney and Moore - and of course have got a world class coach in Gibbes. The outhalf question is a big one, don't want to say much on the Jackson situation for obvious reasons but regardless of the verdict his conduct calls his future into question in which case do they go balls out for Madigan or (dare I say it) Ross Byrne?"
An alternative might be for us to hold on to J10, Carbery and Byrne and let Frawley go North. If we get stuck at outhalf next season, we'll at least have Hawkshaw to bail us out!!!
paddyor wrote:
Actually the rumour I heard was that no one in Ulster rugby expected it to go to trial. Ulster expected to have Jackson available this season. I'm not sure you can blame Nucifora for listening to them on that.
That runs completely contrary to everything I heard from every Ulster rugby supporter and commentator. Apart from the merits of the case itself, the PPSNI had been heavily criticised for not taking a number of high profile incidents to trial. The dogs on the streets of Ulster knew this was going to trial.
paddyor wrote:
Actually the rumour I heard was that no one in Ulster rugby expected it to go to trial. Ulster expected to have Jackson available this season. I'm not sure you can blame Nucifora for listening to them on that.
That runs completely contrary to everything I heard from every Ulster rugby supporter and commentator. Apart from the merits of the case itself, the PPSNI had been heavily criticised for not taking a number of high profile incidents to trial. The dogs on the streets of Ulster knew this was going to trial.
That would tend to support the rumour I heard.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor wrote:
And the fact they only signed an OH until January suggests they expected to have them back.
Or the only player they could get was contracted to play Super Rugby and had to be back for pre-season.
Between October 2016 and September 2017 the only available OH was Christian Lealifano? No.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
Funnily enough, Madigan was being hawked around Ireland in at the end of 2016 and beginning of 2017 when it became apparent that he wasn't going to be a starter at UBB but there was no interest in him, despite being represented by Ryan Constable.
paddyor wrote:
And the fact they only signed an OH until January suggests they expected to have them back.
Or the only player they could get was contracted to play Super Rugby and had to be back for pre-season.
Between October 2016 and September 2017 the only available OH was Christian Lealifano? No.
eh, yes - indeed the only reason Lealifano was free was because he had missed so much time due to his illness that the Brumbies wanted him to play in the off-season
paddyor wrote:
Actually the rumour I heard was that no one in Ulster rugby expected it to go to trial. Ulster expected to have Jackson available this season. I'm not sure you can blame Nucifora for listening to them on that.
That runs completely contrary to everything I heard from every Ulster rugby supporter and commentator. Apart from the merits of the case itself, the PPSNI had been heavily criticised for not taking a number of high profile incidents to trial. The dogs on the streets of Ulster knew this was going to trial.
It's also what I heard (and said before but you dismissed it).
One simple question, if everyone was so sure it was going to trial, why did Jackson tour Japan and rejoin the Ireland squad after the Chicago game?
Dave Cahill wrote:
Who was responsible for forcing an international outhalf out of a club that was going to be without an international outhalf for the foreseeable future?
The incident is being stated to have occurred in June 2016. RP was announced to be leaving 31 Aug 2016 if the internet is correct. The tour to Chicago was Oct 2016 and that was the first hint that something was wrong.
None of us know who knew what and when. But I think it is reasonable to assume that the decision that RP was to leave was either too far gone or was done before anyone knew what was coming or even the extent of it.
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
One simple question, if everyone was so sure it was going to trial, why did Jackson tour Japan and rejoin the Ireland squad after the Chicago game?
Because he was still innocent of any crime - picking the point at which you can no longer actively utilise someone when they are being investigated for a serious office is a tricky task. Leave it too long and you find yourself in the bother Sunderland did if the individual is found guilty, suspend them too soon and you're in trouble for prejudicing a career if the person is found to be innocent.
None of which is neither here nor there in terms of the main point - that Ulsters on field problems could have been alleiviated if Nucifora hadn't been so keen to make yet another c~*k-up
I don't agree...I think we all know that getting into the States can be dodgy if there's anything hanging over you, that does not equate to the certainty of a trial taking place.
But for argument's sake, let's say they change their mind on Pienaar or sign another outhalf before the trial is announced...what reason do they give?
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I don't agree...I think we all know that getting into the States can be dodgy if there's anything hanging over you, that does not equate to the certainty of a trial taking place.
But for argument's sake, let's say they change their mind on Pienaar or sign another outhalf before the trial is announced...what reason do they give?
In the case of Pienaar it would have been a piece of piss and actually would have made them look good "After consultation with Ulster Rugby, the player himself and the wider Irish rugby community it has been decided to offer Ruan Pienaar a further contract to remain in Belfast. Ruan has been a great servant to Ulster and Irish rugby and we are glad that he will be extending his stay at the Kingspan Stadium".
And it wouldn't have looked odd then when this absolute certainty of a trial was announced? And what if it was another player? You didn't answer that part.
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:And it wouldn't have looked odd then when this absolute certainty of a trial was announced? And what if it was another player? You didn't answer that part.
Well considering that during the time period we're discussing another province signed 11 NIQs with bugger all explanation, I don't think its something that they'd worry about.
Player stays at province is a case of dog bites man, no matter what happens subsequently.
Well I think it would have raised questions as to why they had already signed Cooney, and it would have looked a tad convenient when Pienaar was then their starting ten after the trial was announced...which then would have led to questions as to what Ulster knew and why they were still playing those guys when they expected a trial.
Everything points to them not expecting a trial. It literally makes no sense for them to not have signed a ten (Pienaar or otherwise) if they KNEW Jackson and Olding would be unavailable...think about it...zero sense.
Dave Cahill wrote:I think that Schmidt and his useless sidekick need to take a good hard look at Ulster. Now admittedly they bear a large part of the responsibility for the omnishambles the province has become, but now its likely that some really key players for Ireland are not going to be playing top level european rugby next season. Its not just Jordi moving north they should be looking at.
JS and DN (in particular) are not making decisions based on what hopefully is only a one season downturn (ie non qualification for the ERCC) which (although likely) hasn't actually happened yet.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
