Jordi packing his bags

[Dave Cahill]

I think that Schmidt and his useless sidekick need to take a good hard look at Ulster. Now admittedly they bear a large part of the responsibility for the omnishambles the province has become, but now its likely that some really key players for Ireland are not going to be playing top level european rugby next season. Its not just Jordi moving north they should be looking at.

[mildlyinterested]

I think Gibbes said last week that he's staying but there was a story that he met Cheika over Christmas and was asked to be the Aussie forwards coach.

I'm not saying that I think Jordi will stay, but the situation is very different now to when he announced that he was going, and if I was him then I think I would be looking for a way out.

Can't see Jordi forcing his way out.

[Grumpy Old Man]

I think that Schmidt and his useless sidekick need to take a good hard look at Ulster. Now admittedly they bear a large part of the responsibility for the omnishambles the province has become,

Has Cummiskey hacked Dave's account - this doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

[Grumpy Old Man]

We tend to have long memories.

All the way back to 1690...

[Dave Cahill]

I think that Schmidt and his useless sidekick need to take a good hard look at Ulster. Now admittedly they bear a large part of the responsibility for the omnishambles the province has become,

Has Cummiskey hacked Dave's account - this doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Really? I would have thought it was pretty clear? Who was responsible for appointing a coach clearly out of his depth? Who was responsible for forcing an international outhalf out of a club that was going to be without an international outhalf for the foreseeable future?

[Grumpy Old Man]

I think that Schmidt and his useless sidekick need to take a good hard look at Ulster. Now admittedly they bear a large part of the responsibility for the omnishambles the province has become,

Has Cummiskey hacked Dave's account - this doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Really? I would have thought it was pretty clear? Who was responsible for appointing a coach clearly out of his depth? Who was responsible for forcing an international outhalf out of a club that was going to be without an international outhalf for the foreseeable future?

I don't know who was responsible for the appointment of Kiss as coach but I don't think you can say that he was clearly out of his depth at the time - that's post event analysis.it was seen as a coup for Ulster and a loss to Ireland when announced. As to the second part of your reply, are you referring to Pienaar?

[Dave Cahill]

The Elite performance director is responsible for all coaching appointments at elite level. I didn't think Kiss was all that great with Ireland and said so at the time. And yes.

[Lar]

Off topic a bit but hasn't the rise of John Cooney entirely justified the decision not to renew Pienaar's contract from an Irish perspective?

[Dave Cahill]

Off topic a bit but hasn't the rise of John Cooney entirely justified the decision not to renew Pienaar's contract from an Irish perspective?

Not really, no. John Cooney is, at best, an average outhalf and will never play there for Ireland. How will it benefit Ireland if Ulster, including including Stockdale, Henderson, Best and John Cooney the scrumhalf are playing Challenge Cup rugby next year? This wasn't some sudden strike out of the blue, the IRFU knew that this was coming, they knew it when Jackson wasn't selected for the Chicago match, they knew it when he wasn't selected for the US portion of the summer tour. They knew that Ulster were going to be without their international outhalf for a significant proportion of this season and yet they forced an international outhalf out of the club. Also, wouldn't "the rise of John Cooney" be aided by having one of the best scrumhalves of the modern era playing beside him?

[Lar]

Off topic a bit but hasn't the rise of John Cooney entirely justified the decision not to renew Pienaar's contract from an Irish perspective?

Not really, no. John Cooney is, at best, an average outhalf and will never play there for Ireland. How will it benefit Ireland if Ulster, including including Stockdale, Henderson, Best and John Cooney the scrumhalf are playing Challenge Cup rugby next year? This wasn't some sudden strike out of the blue, the IRFU knew that this was coming, they knew it when Jackson wasn't selected for the Chicago match, they knew it when he wasn't selected for the US portion of the summer tour. They knew that Ulster were going to be without their international outhalf for a significant proportion of this season and yet they forced an international outhalf out of the club. Also, wouldn't "the rise of John Cooney" be aided by having one of the best scrumhalves of the modern era playing beside him?

This would make some sense if they signed John Cooney to be scrum half and allowed Pienaar to play outhalf for Ulster. Cooney was never going to be an outhalf option. If Pienaar had stayed Cooney's time at scrum half would have been seriously more limited and he may not have improved as much. If Pienaar had played outhalf with Cooney inside him they might not have needed to sign Lealiifano and that might indeed have benefited Cooney but we have no idea whether Pienaar was ever interested in that as an alternative.

[Dave Cahill]

This would make some sense if they signed John Cooney to be scrum half and allowed Pienaar to play outhalf for Ulster. Cooney was never going to be an outhalf option. If Pienaar had stayed Cooney's time at scrum half would have been seriously more limited and he may not have improved as much. If Pienaar had played outhalf with Cooney inside him they might not have needed to sign Lealiifano and that might indeed have benefited Cooney but we have no idea whether Pienaar was ever interested in that as an alternative.

Of course we do, Pienaar would have played tighthead if it meant he could stay at Ulster, it's not even open for debate.

[Lar]

Maybe I should have said that I had no idea, which is probably closer to the mark.

[Grumpy Old Man]

But he's not a tighthead. Indeed, it is questionable whether he could be classed as an international standard out-half in 2017. He certainly had played there for SA eight or nine years before but the vast majority of his caps since then were at scrum half as far as I can establish.

Despite all the protestations, what did Ulster accomplish while he was there. Nothing bar a HC cup run in 2012. Munster. Leinster and Connacht all won the Pro12 in the time that Pienaar was in Ulster. I get that he was happy in Ulster and wanted to remain (although what that says about his level of ambition is another question) but i don't buy the hype that he was going to lead them to the promised land. Or even do anything more than he had done in since his arrival.

[Flash Gordon]

I think that Schmidt and his useless sidekick need to take a good hard look at Ulster. Now admittedly they bear a large part of the responsibility for the omnishambles the province has become,

Really? I would have thought it was pretty clear? Who was responsible for appointing a coach clearly out of his depth? Who was responsible for forcing an international outhalf out of a club that was going to be without an international outhalf for the foreseeable future?

I don't know who was responsible for the appointment of Kiss as coach but I don't think you can say that he was clearly out of his depth at the time - that's post event analysis.it was seen as a coup for Ulster and a loss to Ireland when announced. As to the second part of your reply, are you referring to Pienaar?

It's Ulster's fault that they didn't produce a scrum half even remotely close to international standard. You can't blame Nucifora for that, rather Clarke and Campbell - appointments made by Shane Logan who, in my opinion, is highly culpable in the clusterfock that Ulster rugby has become. Cooney has come in and done more than Marshall did in 7 or 8 years. You can debate his quality but he is definitely in the Ireland frame.

I don't know how much pre-warning was given with regard to Jackson or Olding or the nature of that legal advice but ultimately, Jackson is responsible for where he is and the mess that this created at Ulster.

I really don't think Kiss was out of his depth fro ma rugby perspective, he's an highly intelligent and articulate coach and a really decent man. During his time at Ulster he was surrounded by backstabbing bitchiness and the support structures he had were appalling. The fact that there's even a conversation on the departure of a coach of Gibbes quality so early on kind of shows this in my view.

I totally agree with Dave that Ulster needs special attention as them not playing Champions Cup rugby would be an absolute disaster for them and Ireland. That should begin with firing Shane Logan. In fairness the IRFU have got key international class players to sign on again and are bringing in genuine quality in Murphy, Cooney and Moore - and of course have got a world class coach in Gibbes. The outhalf question is a big one, don't want to say much on the Jackson situation for obvious reasons but regardless of the verdict his conduct calls his future into question in which case do they go balls out for Madigan or (dare I say it) Ross Byrne?

[fourthirtythree]

Pienaar isn't a suitable outhalf, I can get the argument that he was needed as a scrum half. It turned out not to be true, but I think it was a reasonable argument and one I agreed with.

He was an international outhalf a decade ago when the world was very different. They needed an outhalf alright, but it wasn't him.

Arguing he should have stayed as a scrunhalf and when you don't get that saying well then as an outhalf (which is what was done) merely undermines your argument in the first place rather than bolstering it.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Pienaar could have played like Dan Carter in his prime at ten and it wouldn't have solved the million other problems that Ulster have either developed this season or been cultivating for years.

Personally I think their big mistake was not investing in their pack over the last 6-10 years. Even when they got to the HC final in 2012 they had no depth up front.

[molloyjh]

Off topic a bit but hasn't the rise of John Cooney entirely justified the decision not to renew Pienaar's contract from an Irish perspective?

Not really, no. John Cooney is, at best, an average outhalf and will never play there for Ireland. How will it benefit Ireland if Ulster, including including Stockdale, Henderson, Best and John Cooney the scrumhalf are playing Challenge Cup rugby next year? This wasn't some sudden strike out of the blue, the IRFU knew that this was coming, they knew it when Jackson wasn't selected for the Chicago match, they knew it when he wasn't selected for the US portion of the summer tour. They knew that Ulster were going to be without their international outhalf for a significant proportion of this season and yet they forced an international outhalf out of the club. Also, wouldn't "the rise of John Cooney" be aided by having one of the best scrumhalves of the modern era playing beside him?

How many times did RP actually play 10 for SA? Are we sure calling him "an international outhalf" is really an accurate representation of what he brought to the table? I never viewed him as anything other than a decent 10, but only someone you'd play there at a push in recent times. And by moving him to 10, Ulster were then bringing in Paul Marshall inside him. Even if RP was international quality, the service he'd be getting would be far from it. Especially from a poor 9 outside a pretty dreadful pack.

The simple bottom line to all of this is that Ulster are failing miserably to develop their own talent. On top of that they seem to be making, or had been up until lately anyway, a piss poor effort at attracting decent IE talent into the province. You can't keep rewarding failure and at some stage Ulster were going to have to reap what the sowed. RP was slowing down and delivering less and less impressive performances over time. The IRFU gave Ulster a years notice and, from what I hear, it still took John Cooney approaching them at the 11th hour before they addressed the issue.

In terms of the scrum half position the IRFU have been utterly vindicated. Cooney is proving to be at least as good as RP was at 9 when he was leaving and is a real option for the Irish team. Cooneys development being helped by RP is a good point. So why were Ulster not trying to sign him from Leinster instead of Connacht? Get him up to learn from, and take over from, one of the best in the world. Surely that would have been an easy sell? But no, instead Ulster sat on their hands.

And when they knew that CL was a temporary solution how much time did they give to developing the guys who were going to have to take over from him? Nelson got 3 starts, McPhillips got none. McPhillips, who is now their first choice 10, got less than 60 minutes this season prior to the Wasps game where his appearance at 30 mins was injury enforced. My sympathy for them is very, very limited because they have brought all of this on themselves. They can't expect to be bailed out indefinitely.

[arsebiscuits1]

Christ is Dave on his anti establishment rant again?

[Dave Cahill]

Pienaar could have played like Dan Carter in his prime at ten and it wouldn't have solved the million other problems that Ulster have either developed this season or been cultivating for years.

Personally I think their big mistake was not investing in their pack over the last 6-10 years. Even when they got to the HC final in 2012 they had no depth up front.

No, but it would have solved the most immediate problem they face. Not having a senior outhalf on their roster as they face into sliding out of Champions Cup qualification. And instead of having to scrabble around the world to try to find someone, anyone, to play outhalf, the solution would have been in situ.

Pienaar also played infinitely more international matches at outhalf than Lealiifano - indeed if he had only played 30 seconds as a replacement at outhalf the same would still be true as Lealiifano has never played in that position at that level - and again, was in situ and would have been available for the whole season.

Finally - whose job is it to "oversee provincial team performance"?

[Dave Cahill]

Christ is Dave on his anti establishment rant again?

When the establishment has proven itself to be unfit for purpose...