the spoofer wrote:I saw some comments here saying Toner possibly should have got a yellow. Is the game really going that way that a little dunt like that could get a yellow? Take Cian Healy and Fardy out of it and I reckon our lads are too "nice", we need a couple more hard b$&%@#ds in there although Leavy has the makings of one.
Jaysus I wouldn't fancy meeting SOB, Furlong, McGrath or Ruddock in a dark alley!
Similarly Sexton, Henshaw, RK and Isa all bring their own toughness presence in the backs.
ronk wrote:He jumped to catch a high bounce. It was legitimate rather than just jumping into contact for the fun of it. There was an element of looking for it but he jumped away from Conway not towards him.
Conway was far more in the wrong and could have walked if Lowe had fallen awkwardly and caught the ball (there’s an unwritten law that it’s ok to tackle someone in the air if they knock the ball on).
Sorry but I just think that's totally wrong. How can there be an element of looking for it but also jumping because he had to? Surely it's one or the other? Lowe's knee is facing down the pitch and goes straight into Conway's shoulder/chest and knocks him over, doesn't jump away from him at all and the fact that he jumped at the last second (with his hands not very high meaning he could have just kept running and stuck them out to catch it) meant contact was inevitable. By jumping and leading with the knee it looked to me like it was because he was pretty much looking for the contact and was bracing himself. Like I said, Conway should still have slowed down but I would say that was poor defence rather than anything dangerous, I think it's perfectly reasonable to not expect Lowe to jump.
He didn’t jump at Conway, he jumped across and he did it because of the bounce, it was a tough bounce and he dropped the ball anyway. Staying on the ground would have been much harder to catch even if it was still possible. I thought Conway went down easy to try and keep himself on the field. Lowe didn’t but could have.
I also thought that Conway followed through rather than trying to pull out.
Lowe looked for a penalty immediately and Nigel doesn’t like that.
the spoofer wrote:I saw some comments here saying Toner possibly should have got a yellow. Is the game really going that way that a little dunt like that could get a yellow? Take Cian Healy and Fardy out of it and I reckon our lads are too "nice", we need a couple more hard b$&%@#ds in there although Leavy has the makings of one.
am sure 20 stone hitting you is more than a dunt
it was just clumsy/no ill intent but letter of the law/current directives that could well have been a yellow
Retired from babbling. Can be found on twittter @okeeffesimon
ronk wrote:He jumped to catch a high bounce. It was legitimate rather than just jumping into contact for the fun of it. There was an element of looking for it but he jumped away from Conway not towards him.
Conway was far more in the wrong and could have walked if Lowe had fallen awkwardly and caught the ball (there’s an unwritten law that it’s ok to tackle someone in the air if they knock the ball on).
Sorry but I just think that's totally wrong. How can there be an element of looking for it but also jumping because he had to? Surely it's one or the other? Lowe's knee is facing down the pitch and goes straight into Conway's shoulder/chest and knocks him over, doesn't jump away from him at all and the fact that he jumped at the last second (with his hands not very high meaning he could have just kept running and stuck them out to catch it) meant contact was inevitable. By jumping and leading with the knee it looked to me like it was because he was pretty much looking for the contact and was bracing himself. Like I said, Conway should still have slowed down but I would say that was poor defence rather than anything dangerous, I think it's perfectly reasonable to not expect Lowe to jump.
He didn’t jump at Conway, he jumped across and he did it because of the bounce, it was a tough bounce and he dropped the ball anyway. Staying on the ground would have been much harder to catch even if it was still possible. I thought Conway went down easy to try and keep himself on the field. Lowe didn’t but could have.
I also thought that Conway followed through rather than trying to pull out.
Lowe looked for a penalty immediately and Nigel doesn’t like that.
I thought that Nigel was unusually influenced by the crowd on that one ( Munster crowd being second moaniest crowd in the Country after clear leaders Ulster)... there was nothing in it ... Nigel should have spoken to both just to calm it down a bit, but no foul play from either IMO
ronk wrote:He jumped to catch a high bounce. It was legitimate rather than just jumping into contact for the fun of it. There was an element of looking for it but he jumped away from Conway not towards him.
Conway was far more in the wrong and could have walked if Lowe had fallen awkwardly and caught the ball (there’s an unwritten law that it’s ok to tackle someone in the air if they knock the ball on).
Sorry but I just think that's totally wrong. How can there be an element of looking for it but also jumping because he had to? Surely it's one or the other? Lowe's knee is facing down the pitch and goes straight into Conway's shoulder/chest and knocks him over, doesn't jump away from him at all and the fact that he jumped at the last second (with his hands not very high meaning he could have just kept running and stuck them out to catch it) meant contact was inevitable. By jumping and leading with the knee it looked to me like it was because he was pretty much looking for the contact and was bracing himself. Like I said, Conway should still have slowed down but I would say that was poor defence rather than anything dangerous, I think it's perfectly reasonable to not expect Lowe to jump.
He didn’t jump at Conway, he jumped across and he did it because of the bounce, it was a tough bounce and he dropped the ball anyway. Staying on the ground would have been much harder to catch even if it was still possible. I thought Conway went down easy to try and keep himself on the field. Lowe didn’t but could have.
I also thought that Conway followed through rather than trying to pull out.
Lowe looked for a penalty immediately and Nigel doesn’t like that.
It was definitely possible to catch it without jumping, but I'm saying that by jumping he was pretty much ensuring contact in the air (I'm not saying he shouldn't have jumped), there was no way Conway had time to pull out once he jumped. And I think the knee was overly aggressive, your view of that just doesn't tally with the reality. I paused it and it's a big collision and like I said, there's a big knee to his shoulder/chest facing down the field, it's not like Conway hit him side on.
It seems to have been read as if I'm having a go at Lowe when I'm not. I'm saying that I can see why Nige had a chat with him, and I thought a chat but no sanction was fair enough, although he should also have told Conway to be careful. He called it a rugby incident, I would argue that it wasn't and that both players were slightly in the wrong and it could have been avoided but because they both played their part in it then no sanction was required.
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Daly stopping and putting his head in his hands just screamed guilt to me but I haven't seen a replay. He's stopped like that before actually, needs to cut it out.
Absolutely. Daly needs to play to the whistle and not look like he has been caught with his hand in the sweet jar every time he makes a mistake. It's pro rugby.
I think Nidge had a good game, but to the letter of the law, I believe the Conway Lowe incident should have been a penalty against Lowe for leading with the knee and a reverse of that and yellow for Conway for tackling in the air.
The more I watch Leavy's try, the more I'm convinced it was a pre-planned move or at least an 'option' pattern.
First we call a move and set up Lowe behind Byrne and Larmour in the line.
Then clean ball is taken from lineout, from which Tracy moves out into first receiver position and fakes to Henshaw who holds two men on a tight line.
Then we hit Lowe on a screen move with two 'pillar' style attackers in front of him to create a hole (ROL and Larmour).
That doesn't work so he offloads to Larmour who makes a break.
At next ruck JGP feigns to go inside before going down the short side to Tracy who has come across late to create extra man overlap.
In the next ruck all three of Munster's backline are involved, including Sweetnam who has come racing across the pitch and is stuck there in no man's land.
Then we move the ball back in to a big carrier in Ryan via a skip pass.
Then JGP skips again to Byrne for the cross kick. Murray is desperately trying to get across to cover Sweetnam but gets nowhere near.
We've pulled Munster's defence all over the pitch and left huge space for Leavy (who has purposely kept his width) to run onto.
It's well worth a watch again. Beautiful pattern when you see it slowed down.
Nice work Lancaster/Girve (think it's Girve that looks after structured attack like this?).
Experimental wrote:I think Nidge had a good game, but to the letter of the law, I believe the Conway Lowe incident should have been a penalty against Lowe for leading with the knee and a reverse of that and yellow for Conway for tackling in the air.
When taking a high ball you raise your knees to shield yourself. A player who is realistically competing for the ball shouldn't have any upper body parts (head,ribs etc.) near the knee... A player like conway who was nowhere near being able to realistically compete for the ball, but will want to jump anyway to ensure Lowe isn't away down the field, could get a knock to the head.
Bad reffing to tell a player to not protect himself in the air and to wave conway challenge away just because Lowe didn't fall awkwardly.
**** LEINSTER Champions Of Europe 2009/2011/2012/2018 ****
Experimental wrote:I think Nidge had a good game, but to the letter of the law, I believe the Conway Lowe incident should have been a penalty against Lowe for leading with the knee and a reverse of that and yellow for Conway for tackling in the air.
When taking a high ball you raise your knees to shield yourself. A player who is realistically competing for the ball shouldn't have any upper body parts (head,ribs etc.) near the knee... A player like conway who was nowhere near being able to realistically compete for the ball, but will want to jump anyway to ensure Lowe isn't away down the field, could get a knock to the head.
Bad reffing to tell a player to not protect himself in the air and to wave conway challenge away just because Lowe didn't fall awkwardly.
One big flaw in that argument...it wasn't a high ball.
Experimental wrote:I think Nidge had a good game, but to the letter of the law, I believe the Conway Lowe incident should have been a penalty against Lowe for leading with the knee and a reverse of that and yellow for Conway for tackling in the air.
Lee Byrne for Wales was a specialist in jumping with a high knee. He would do it when he could catch the ball standing. His technique was almost exaggerated. My memory tells me that he was also one of the first of players to wear coloured boots, so it was even more obvious. Commentators would purr about it as great technique to protect himself from sneaky hits. There was occasional mutter from opposition fans that "someone is gonna get hurt".
Genuine question - is there something in the laws about not leading with the knee? I thought it was standard technique for FBs.
It reminds me a bit of the lions penalty in the summer. A player jumps when they probably didn’t need to, or at least the tackler wouldn’t have expected them to. Sinckler got the penalty for it in that test and I’m still not sure if that was a right or wrong call, but if I was New Zealand, I think I’d be annoyed. And as I recall they definitely were.
Lowe’s was a bit different in my eyes though. I got the feeling he took the ball in the air and tried to dominate the contact in one movement. For me, he did go looking for Conway with it. That made me think Owens called it about right. Maybe by the letter of the law it’s a penalty against Conway. He has tackled him airborne. But I think Lowe was on the verge of playing for the penalty too, which i think could be construed as an offence itself. Overall it felt fair to me. But then I do like Owens’ refereeing, where he kind of has a primary loyalty to natural justice and makes the rule book pliable to suit the needs of the situation. I know that’s not everyine’s cup of tea and I’m not saying don’t blow the fouls, or cop out of tough decisions.
To be fair, things might have been different and I might feel differently had Lowe landed awkwardly. But then that’s referring by outcome and I’m not a fan of that either. It’s a tough area, I remember in the summer the all blacks were giving out and saying could we see alley oops on the goal line as an innovation? Surprised Dave Rennie hasn’t done it already.
wixfjord wrote:The more I watch Leavy's try, the more I'm convinced it was a pre-planned move or at least an 'option' pattern.
First we call a move and set up Lowe behind Byrne and Larmour in the line.
Then clean ball is taken from lineout, from which Tracy moves out into first receiver position and fakes to Henshaw who holds two men on a tight line.
Then we hit Lowe on a screen move with two 'pillar' style attackers in front of him to create a hole (ROL and Larmour).
That doesn't work so he offloads to Larmour who makes a break.
At next ruck JGP feigns to go inside before going down the short side to Tracy who has come across late to create extra man overlap.
In the next ruck all three of Munster's backline are involved, including Sweetnam who has come racing across the pitch and is stuck there in no man's land.
Then we move the ball back in to a big carrier in Ryan via a skip pass.
Then JGP skips again to Byrne for the cross kick. Murray is desperately trying to get across to cover Sweetnam but gets nowhere near.
We've pulled Munster's defence all over the pitch and left huge space for Leavy (who has purposely kept his width) to run onto.
It's well worth a watch again. Beautiful pattern when you see it slowed down.
Nice work Lancaster/Girve (think it's Girve that looks after structured attack like this?).
@wixjford, good read and totally agree that it was a prepared pattern.
The execution was excellent and there was a really good option in the middle of it to feed Ryan and really suck any residual Munster defenders out of position. As a final point, have a look at who were the nearest Munster players to Leavy when he caught the ball, Kilcoyne and Archer if I'm not mistaken!
Compare the Lowe incident to the North incident above. The exact same situation the only difference being North ends up knocked out.
If Lowe had fallen due to Conway’s hit Conway would have been sent walking too. Protecting yourself with the knees is absolutely the correct thing to do in that situation.
**** LEINSTER Champions Of Europe 2009/2011/2012/2018 ****
Compare the Lowe incident to the North incident above. The exact same situation the only difference being North ends up knocked out.
If Lowe had fallen due to Conway’s hit Conway would have been sent walking too. Protecting yourself with the knees is absolutely the correct thing to do in that situation.
Actually the defender is under the ball and North jumps over him, there was no way to avoid North at that point
Compare the Lowe incident to the North incident above. The exact same situation the only difference being North ends up knocked out.
If Lowe had fallen due to Conway’s hit Conway would have been sent walking too. Protecting yourself with the knees is absolutely the correct thing to do in that situation.
And what if it had been the other way around and Conway had been knocked out from a knee that would have been really hard to avoid? How did the knee protect North there?
High balls are a totally different kettle of fish, not only does the knee protect you but you need to raise it to jump anyway and in most cases the defender can expect the player to jump. When it's a bouncing ball in close proximity like this then I think you're asking for trouble. Like I said, I can see why Lowe did it but have no issue with him getting a warning and do think it's a grey area that needs to be looked at. If I was Conway and was sprinting forward to make a tackle and then someone jumped at the last second which meant I couldn't avoid a knee to the shoulder/chest then I'd be fairly pissed off tbh.
Experimental wrote:I think Nidge had a good game, but to the letter of the law, I believe the Conway Lowe incident should have been a penalty against Lowe for leading with the knee and a reverse of that and yellow for Conway for tackling in the air.
Lee Byrne for Wales was a specialist in jumping with a high knee. He would do it when he could catch the ball standing. His technique was almost exaggerated. My memory tells me that he was also one of the first of players to wear coloured boots, so it was even more obvious. Commentators would purr about it as great technique to protect himself from sneaky hits. There was occasional mutter from opposition fans that "someone is gonna get hurt".
Genuine question - is there something in the laws about not leading with the knee? I thought it was standard technique for FBs.
I remember Byrne leading with the studs more than with his knee
Compare the Lowe incident to the North incident above. The exact same situation the only difference being North ends up knocked out.
If Lowe had fallen due to Conway’s hit Conway would have been sent walking too. Protecting yourself with the knees is absolutely the correct thing to do in that situation.
And what if it had been the other way around and Conway had been knocked out from a knee that would have been really hard to avoid? How did the knee protect North there?
High balls are a totally different kettle of fish, not only does the knee protect you but you need to raise it to jump anyway and in most cases the defender can expect the player to jump. When it's a bouncing ball in close proximity like this then I think you're asking for trouble. Like I said, I can see why Lowe did it but have no issue with him getting a warning and do think it's a grey area that needs to be looked at. If I was Conway and was sprinting forward to make a tackle and then someone jumped at the last second which meant I couldn't avoid a knee to the shoulder/chest then I'd be fairly pissed off tbh.
If Conway had been knocked out by the knee, it wouldn't automatically put him in the right. He got knocked out trying to tackle Telusa Veainu. Does that mean Veainu was in the wrong? Conway has to be responsible for the positions he puts himself in
