Leinster v Connacht Jan 1st 3.15pm

[molloyjh]

The stats have been updated. Apparently Josh didn't actually make 31 tackles. He made 34. Still didn't miss one though....

What the actual fyuck. That's the most I've ever seen from an Irish rugby player in 15 years. Must be the second most in a pro-level rugby match's after Dusautoir's famous 37 against the All Blacks?

Think it was 38 actually, but yeah you don't see those kinds of figures very often.And to not miss any is spectacular.

[artaneboy]

Not buying the Lowe hype just yet but if he becomes first choice then the debate re JGP and McCarthy becomes superfluous.

I'm not sure I'd renew JGPs contract. He's decent, but that's about it. Decent isn't enough to justify a NIQ spot and I think there's good potential coming through with a higher ceiling.

Still rue the day we let Cooney go.

Jesus, now he's getting criticism even after he doesn't play. That's a bit much, and I certainly wasn't one of his defenders. He was far better last week than either of McGrath or McCarthy today.

I am (notoriously) a supporter of JGP- and remain of the view that he's played very well and at a level with Luke McGrath and above Nick McCarthy this season. I also think that has been increasingly evident in both Munster and earlier games.

However, I have to agree with Oldschool, if Lowe continues on this exciting trajectory, the case for playing both Fardy and Lowe on that stupid rule, to the exclusion of Jamison, will be irresistible. That would be really unfortunate for JGP, but it could happen- if both other antipodeans remain injury-free.

Yeah- and Cooney does look like the one that got away that we will regret- more than Felix Jones, and certainly more than Conway or Kelleher.

[CiaranIrl]

I'm not sure I'd renew JGPs contract. He's decent, but that's about it. Decent isn't enough to justify a NIQ spot and I think there's good potential coming through with a higher ceiling.

Still rue the day we let Cooney go.

Jesus, now he's getting criticism even after he doesn't play. That's a bit much, and I certainly wasn't one of his defenders. He was far better last week than either of McGrath or McCarthy today.

I am (notoriously) a supporter of JGP- and remain of the view that he's played very well and at a level with Luke McGrath and above Nick McCarthy this season. I also think that has been increasingly evident in both Munster and earlier games.

However, I have to agree with Oldschool, if Lowe continues on this exciting trajectory, the case for playing both Fardy and Lowe on that stupid rule, to the exclusion of Jamison, will be irresistible. That would be really unfortunate for JGP, but it could happen- if both other antipodeans remain injury-free.

Yeah- and Cooney does look like the one that got away that we will regret- more than Felix Jones, and certainly more than Conway or Kelleher.

That's a totally reasonable argument, bit saying his contract shouldn't be renewed isn't reasonable, in my view.

[hugonaut]

I think, as someone has said above, we just need to accept Reid for what he is at this stage. A talented 12 who is excellent at certain parts of the game (footwork, running in space and passing) and poor at certain parts of the game (tackling & physicality). He’s very effective at a certain level and in fairness has been very good for 18 months. His tackling has much improved in general.

He’s the type of guy that we need in a squad. Low cost, well capable of playing in Pro14, can step up when needed and is happy to bench for Henshaw.

In all fairness, he is due one poor game, so shouldn’t be written off based on that.

On the other hand, I’d be worried seeing him over next few weeks if Henshaw was injured.

Agree with you on Reider, it's a level-headed assessment. I've really warmed to him over the last three or four years while retaining some completely unshakeable reservations!

I think he's a bit of a board favourite. There's a lot of season ticket holders here and Reider plays a lot of Pro12 rugby – 21 games last season, 16 the season before. We see a lot of him in the RDS and personally I think you build up an appreciation of the guys you see play week in, week out.

I've said it before, but I'd like to see two things from him: place-kicking and acting as a stand-in No10. He was an outstanding place-kicker as a schoolboy player and very handy as an Irish U20. He's done it before. Obviously getting the tee back out would make him a more useful player to us, and it would give him a bigger role in the squad.

The same would apply if he put himself forward as outhalf cover/fourth choice. He played a lot of No10 in his formative years, so it's not like he's never done it before. Given the makeup of our squad and the set-up of Irish rugby, Jonny Sexton is going to play very, very few games for us, so we need two back-ups ... and we have them in the two lads, Carberry and Byrne. But Cathal Marsh is [for me] excess baggage. Having a fourth choice No10 on the books who only plays one position and whom nobody has any faith in is a bad bit of business.

And the same line of thinking should apply to Reider, albeit not the same outcome. He needs a bit of a push to add more value to Leinster, because a guy who only plays one position [No12] and who isn't exerting the slightest pressure on the guy ahead of him [Henshaw] isn't the stuff of which champions are made. I think Reider could – and should – be pushed to do more. His defense has definitely improved, but we need a wider contribution from him ... more positional utility, more authority as a second playmaker, better kicking game from hand and a place-kicking option.

[artaneboy]

Jesus, now he's getting criticism even after he doesn't play. That's a bit much, and I certainly wasn't one of his defenders. He was far better last week than either of McGrath or McCarthy today.

I am (notoriously) a supporter of JGP- and remain of the view that he's played very well and at a level with Luke McGrath and above Nick McCarthy this season. I also think that has been increasingly evident in both Munster and earlier games.

However, I have to agree with Oldschool, if Lowe continues on this exciting trajectory, the case for playing both Fardy and Lowe on that stupid rule, to the exclusion of Jamison, will be irresistible. That would be really unfortunate for JGP, but it could happen- if both other antipodeans remain injury-free.

Yeah- and Cooney does look like the one that got away that we will regret- more than Felix Jones, and certainly more than Conway or Kelleher.

That's a totally reasonable argument, bit saying his contract shouldn't be renewed isn't reasonable, in my view.

Oh- I totally agree with you on that. No sense to it in terms of the investment in time and effort made toward IQ status and the fact that he is clearly improving.

But in the short term, he may lose out on the ECC squad- for a start. But I hope not.


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[johng]

He's on a 3 year contract afaik. 2019. Bit early to be arguing about it now. Also. Even if he never plays for Ireland he will cease to be a problem from a kolpak perspective if he re-signs

[limecat]

Highlights

[ronk]

I think, as someone has said above, we just need to accept Reid for what he is at this stage. A talented 12 who is excellent at certain parts of the game (footwork, running in space and passing) and poor at certain parts of the game (tackling & physicality). He’s very effective at a certain level and in fairness has been very good for 18 months. His tackling has much improved in general.

He’s the type of guy that we need in a squad. Low cost, well capable of playing in Pro14, can step up when needed and is happy to bench for Henshaw.

In all fairness, he is due one poor game, so shouldn’t be written off based on that.

On the other hand, I’d be worried seeing him over next few weeks if Henshaw was injured.

Agree with you on Reider, it's a level-headed assessment. I've really warmed to him over the last three or four years while retaining some completely unshakeable reservations!

I think he's a bit of a board favourite. There's a lot of season ticket holders here and Reider plays a lot of Pro12 rugby – 21 games last season, 16 the season before. We see a lot of him in the RDS and personally I think you build up an appreciation of the guys you see play week in, week out.

I've said it before, but I'd like to see two things from him: place-kicking and acting as a stand-in No10. He was an outstanding place-kicker as a schoolboy player and very handy as an Irish U20. He's done it before. Obviously getting the tee back out would make him a more useful player to us, and it would give him a bigger role in the squad.

The same would apply if he put himself forward as outhalf cover/fourth choice. He played a lot of No10 in his formative years, so it's not like he's never done it before. Given the makeup of our squad and the set-up of Irish rugby, Jonny Sexton is going to play very, very few games for us, so we need two back-ups ... and we have them in the two lads, Carberry and Byrne. But Cathal Marsh is [for me] excess baggage. Having a fourth choice No10 on the books who only plays one position and whom nobody has any faith in is a bad bit of business.

And the same line of thinking should apply to Reider, albeit not the same outcome. He needs a bit of a push to add more value to Leinster, because a guy who only plays one position [No12] and who isn't exerting the slightest pressure on the guy ahead of him [Henshaw] isn't the stuff of which champions are made. I think Reider could – and should – be pushed to do more. His defense has definitely improved, but we need a wider contribution from him ... more positional utility, more authority as a second playmaker, better kicking game from hand and a place-kicking option.

Wait what? Henshaw barely plays in the league and he will tend to want the occasional game at 13. Reid plays lots in a position where we otherwise don’t have depth, we had been playing Isa out of position.

We have a logjam at 10 with other provinces looking for a chance to snipe Carbery. Reid can cover there but will never excel, even when we had just Byrne this time last year for an extended run we didn’t push Reid there much. Isa, Sexton, Carbery, Byrne, Marsh are all ahead of him at 10, but we are hugely reliant (minutes wise) on him at 12.

He made a few mistakes but did some good things too and has often been a good player. He had a bad day at the office, he’ll do better. Maybe he won’t threaten Henshaw’s place but that also makes him more valuable in terms of squad minutes.

We don’t have many experienced guys who play a lot and are around when the internationals are away/rested.

Reid is a versatile player who has benefited from specialising and any deficiencies in his game should be addressed by making him a better 12, which we need. Reid isn’t a natural specialist 12 but he’s settled there and it’s his best position. How long is it since we had one? Henshaw and D’Arcy drifted there. Horgan went away from there. Ferg was filling a gap. The alternative is to shunt someone around.

Goal kicking is a red herring. We have 4 kicking outhalves (who really want to kick) along with Ferg and Isa. We probably have others too (Larmour?).

[CiaranIrl]

Trusted or not, Marsh is underrated. He's a good player. He could well be a Cooney or even Steenson if he leaves.

[OSS]

Trusted or not, Marsh is underrated. He's a good player. He could well be a Cooney or even Steenson if he leaves.

sadly, that's likely what he'll have to do to kick on, but he's going to need minutes in the shop window unless the scouts are punting him based on matches in Templeville Road.

[ronk]

Trusted or not, Marsh is underrated. He's a good player. He could well be a Cooney or even Steenson if he leaves.

He’s not better than our 3rd choice outhalf, which is a much higher bar than it would normally sound. B&I Cup is gone but next season leads into a World Cup and there’s an age gap before the next generation. He has a year or two of pro rugby at home if he wants.

If Ulster aren’t interested in their hour of need (now) then his alternative is probably Championship or milk his time here. Prem sides won’t sign him to start so a better move would be go get playing time and hope to kick on than to sign to another bench and hope for something.

[CiaranIrl]

Trusted or not, Marsh is underrated. He's a good player. He could well be a Cooney or even Steenson if he leaves.

He’s not better than our 3rd choice outhalf, which is a much higher bar than it would normally sound. B&I Cup is gone but next season leads into a World Cup and there’s an age gap before the next generation. He has a year or two of pro rugby at home if he wants.

If Ulster aren’t interested in their hour of need (now) then his alternative is probably Championship or milk his time here. Prem sides won’t sign him to start so a better move would be go get playing time and hope to kick on than to sign to another bench and hope for something.

I'm aware of how arrogant this might sound to a non Leinster fan, but our 4th choice outhalf would be good enough to start for 30% to 40% of the clubs in the top 3 leagues in Europe. We're lucky to have two exceptional players behind Sexton, who is the best in Europe.

He should leave though. Ross's younger brother Harry is an exceptional talent too. Come 2019, he'll be starting to push through.

[artaneboy]

I know it’s been mentioned before, but the logic is damn near irresistible. Cathal needs game time at a high level if he is either to realise his potential for us- or (he sighs ruefully) with another club. Could we loan Marsh to Ulster until the end of the season? On face value it could be a useful symbiotic relationship: we get a good player valuable game time; they get a short term replacement of some quality to plug their Jackson-shaped hole.

Is it administratively possible mid-season? Even if it is allowed- it obviously may be a bit tricky what with us both in the one conference and the Nordies still (as we speak) are a potential opponent in the ECC.


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[ronk]

He’s not cup tied.

The most likely barriers are our needs for an outhalf due to our considerable international commitments (at least 2), and their interest in bigger names.

He hasn’t demonstrated that he’s at that level of walking onto one of 10-15 pro teams and displacing the incumbent. Connacht wouldn’t swap him for Carty, Munster wouldn’t give him a chance ahead of JJ, Keatley or Tyler.

[wixfjord]

I'm aware of how arrogant this might sound to a non Leinster fan, but our 4th choice outhalf would be good enough to start for 30% to 40% of the clubs in the top 3 leagues in Europe.

Hmmm I rate Marsh, but that's a little far I reckon!!

Who would Marsh start for in the Aviva? Let's say the four worst sides are Worcester (Heathcote), Northampton (Francis, Mallinder and Meyler), LI (Marshall) and Newcastle (Flood). He would possibly start for Worcester there.

He would probably start for Kings in Pro14. Maybe Dragons, albeit Henson is there, unlikely Zebre (Canna) or Treviso (Banks/Allan/McKinley).

In France let's say worst are Oyonnax (Botica), Brive (Bezy), Agen (Mieres) and Pau (Slade). He would probably start for Agen.

[riocard911]

Thought Nick McCarthy had a good game, when he came on. Passing, decision making - all top notch in what was a pressure situation, particularly the last couple of minutes.

[ronk]

The stats have been updated. Apparently Josh didn't actually make 31 tackles. He made 34. Still didn't miss one though....

What the actual fyuck. That's the most I've ever seen from an Irish rugby player in 15 years. Must be the second most in a pro-level rugby match's after Dusautoir's famous 37 against the All Blacks?

Massive pat on the back for Molony (27), Deegan (26) and Fardy/Ed Byrne who had 16 each as subs.

[CiaranIrl]

I'm aware of how arrogant this might sound to a non Leinster fan, but our 4th choice outhalf would be good enough to start for 30% to 40% of the clubs in the top 3 leagues in Europe.

Hmmm I rate Marsh, but that's a little far I reckon!!

Who would Marsh start for in the Aviva? Let's say the four worst sides are Worcester (Heathcote), Northampton (Francis, Mallinder and Meyler), LI (Marshall) and Newcastle (Flood). He would possibly start for Worcester there.

He would probably start for Kings in Pro14. Maybe Dragons, albeit Henson is there, unlikely Zebre (Canna) or Treviso (Banks/Allan/McKinley).

In France let's say worst are Oyonnax (Botica), Brive (Bezy), Agen (Mieres) and Pau (Slade). He would probably start for Agen.

He's better than you might think. If a half decent club signs him, he'll have a good career. I used not think so, but I've turned around my thinking. There's a lot made of the 40 odd players we cap each year, but the coaches have made a very conscious decision to invest in a smaller number.

Ulster won't sign him on general principle, and I get it, but it's a shame. He's miles better than what they have.

[paddyor]

Trusted or not, Marsh is underrated. He's a good player. He could well be a Cooney or even Steenson if he leaves.

He could be, he could be a Keatley too. Right now he's not better than the 3 guys in front of him and he's not going to get many chances to prove it here. I think Hugos right, he's surplus to requirements. I'm intrigued by the idea of Reid as a stand in 10, some of his passing last season as a 2nd 5/8th was brilliant last season. Would probably need to work on his kicking from hand. Thought he looked better defensively with Kirchner at 13 last season which suggests his defensive issues are somewhat fixable.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Trusted or not, Marsh is underrated. He's a good player. He could well be a Cooney or even Steenson if he leaves.

100% agree about him being underrated. I think there's an argument for him moving to Ulster until the end of the season because they're in a desperate state, but from a Leinster POV I think we're blessed to have him. I would be shocked if any other club in Europe could have a ten as good as him if they were down to their 4th choice (possibly even 5th if Isa counts). I'm not worried about him kicking on or taking up a squad place/wages, I just think it's great that he's available for us if we're ever in dire straits.