Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby Logorrhea » January 7th, 2018, 10:54 pm

artaneboy wrote:Obviously if he’s judged to be capable of holding his end up in the final quarter of an important match- the, probably correct, assumption is that he’s a risk worth taking to fill in for an injury to the starting 9 from earlier in a match.


Nahhh sorry I just dont agree with your assumption there. Big difference between throwing a player on when your team is 25 points ahead against Ulster and needing him to play for 60+ mins away to Montpellier when your team needs a result.

I see where you are coming from, in that its a risk that could pay off allowing us to get Lowe on the pitch, but the thought of mcCarthy being expected to play for 60 mins away to Montpellier would terrify me (at the moment).
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby artaneboy » January 7th, 2018, 11:53 pm

Logorrhea wrote:
artaneboy wrote:Obviously if he’s judged to be capable of holding his end up in the final quarter of an important match- the, probably correct, assumption is that he’s a risk worth taking to fill in for an injury to the starting 9 from earlier in a match.


Nahhh sorry I just dont agree with your assumption there. Big difference between throwing a player on when your team is 25 points ahead against Ulster and needing him to play for 60+ mins away to Montpellier when your team needs a result.

I see where you are coming from, in that its a risk that could pay off allowing us to get Lowe on the pitch, but the thought of mcCarthy being expected to play for 60 mins away to Montpellier would terrify me (at the moment).


I’d be nervous too. But if we accept Luke McGrath as the number one- or that Jamison and Luke are very close, then IF we want both Fardy and Lowe in a match squad, we are inevitably driven to consider the gamble on McCarthy in place of Gibson-Park.

I’m one of the minority that rates JGP very highly. I wouldn’t accept that Luke is necessarily or inevitably the first choice. But the choice of Jamison over Luke with them that close- makes no sense with that ‘bloody rule’ being an issue. We’re not going to make a marginal call for one of those scarce non-Kolpack places for him.

So that bring the case, the performances that matter here are, “offensively” in terms of Lowe: is he worthy of a pick as a game-changer- and “as insurance” with Nick, can he hold his end up for 20 minutes and in an emergency for longer.

My view is that there’s a clear gap in performance between Nick and Luke/ Jamison. But not so large that I’m terrified at him being dropped the 9 in a biggie. On the other hand, I think Lowe’s few performances show he has to be in the squad, as does Fardy on a much larger sample, only more so. QED Jamison drops out of the squad. Not happy about it; but it’s the pragmatic choice.

Now- would I be happy at Nick starting if Luke was injured? Absolutely not! It’s a risk and a bet that he won’t be needed.


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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby paddyor » January 8th, 2018, 2:21 am

IMO the coaches have a clear pecking order and it's not just "orders" from the Irish management. He was left on for 74 minutes against Exeter despite having one of his least impressive performances of the season.

You're entitled to your opinion of course but selection seems to indicate a clear hierarchy.

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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby COYBIB » January 8th, 2018, 7:16 am

I'm very pro-McCarthy at 21 shirt.

There seems to be two schools of thought on how JGP has been playing, some saying he's had great games, some saying he's not. But looking at it from a development point of view, JGP is probably getting to the age now where there wont be substantial improvements in his game over the medium term, so are we accepting he is the level we're satisfied with as our number 2 back-up? I think he's functional if not spectacular, but I'd like to think we could aim a little bit higher.

We have two 9's coming behind him with McCarthy (now) and Rock (next season), those are very good development opportunities. If McCarthy had a chance to deputize more, then maybe we wouldn't be so worried about it if he's gotten those minutes on the pitch and proved his worth. I don't think he needs to do anything spectacular to show he can be in or around JGPs level over the next season at least.

I like Luke McGrath quite a bit also, but again I think there's opportunity to give McCarthy and Rock opportunities to see if they could catch r surpass McGrath, and JGP is one instance where I think it's an unhelpful NIQ signing, as he's not first 15 quality and he is blocking development for back-up players. My view on NIQs is they should be contributing a significant amount to the first team whilst we develop players behind them, not have then sitting on the bench taking those 20/30 minute game time slots while we have a better home produced player on the pitch.

Glasgow have nothing to play for in the CC, they're now out and will want to focus 100% on winning their conference in the league and it's a home game. A perfect opportunity to bring Nick McCarthy onto the bench and give Lowe a taste of Champions Cup rugby. If we're going well, give McCarthy 20/25 minutes, see how he goes and if he's performing, then I wouldn't mind bringing him through to the Montpellier game if he's getting his basics right and executing at the standard expected.
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Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby artaneboy » January 8th, 2018, 8:37 am

paddyor wrote:IMO the coaches have a clear pecking order and it's not just "orders" from the Irish management. He was left on for 74 minutes against Exeter despite having one of his least impressive performances of the season.

You're entitled to your opinion of course but selection seems to indicate a clear hierarchy.

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I’ve accepted that in the circumstances of the non-Kolpack rule and their near parity in performance, in reality the management will pick McGrath.

I’m focusing on whether McCarthy replaces JGP n the squad.


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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby mildlyinterested » January 8th, 2018, 9:18 am

McGrath is the better player thats why the management will pick him.

they dont seem to trust mccarthy so doubt jgp will be dropped.
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby artaneboy » January 8th, 2018, 9:26 am

mildlyinterested wrote:McGrath is the better player thats why the management will pick him.

they dont seem to trust mccarthy so doubt jgp will be dropped.


Thanks for that authoritative pronouncement.

Now that you’ve settled it, there’s no point in discussing this any further.


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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby mildlyinterested » January 8th, 2018, 9:43 am

artaneboy wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:McGrath is the better player thats why the management will pick him.

they dont seem to trust mccarthy so doubt jgp will be dropped.


Thanks for that authoritative pronouncement.

Now that you’ve settled it, there’s no point in discussing this any further.


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the coaches and player settled it last season when he won the player of year award and started every big game at 9.
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby molloyjh » January 8th, 2018, 10:00 am

I think we need to be realistic here. Leinster are there to win games first and foremost. You select guys who can do that for you. You develop guys secondary to that. As it stands McCarthy got his first cap a little over 2 years ago and has only been given 1 start since then. Now he's had a good deal more game time this season than last season (he's set to double his minutes played) so clearly the coaches are managing him up. But he's still very clearly 3rd choice and is still very much behind JGP in games the coaches feel we need to win, as has been evidenced in the last few weeks. We probably need to win the next 2 games. So I think all the evidence thus far points quite strongly towards JGP retaining his place in the 23 for the remaining pool games.
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby mildlyinterested » January 8th, 2018, 10:09 am

molloyjh wrote:I think we need to be realistic here. Leinster are there to win games first and foremost. You select guys who can do that for you. You develop guys secondary to that. As it stands McCarthy got his first cap a little over 2 years ago and has only been given 1 start since then. Now he's had a good deal more game time this season than last season (he's set to double his minutes played) so clearly the coaches are managing him up. But he's still very clearly 3rd choice and is still very much behind JGP in games the coaches feel we need to win, as has been evidenced in the last few weeks. We probably need to win the next 2 games. So I think all the evidence thus far points quite strongly towards JGP retaining his place in the 23 for the remaining pool games.


I believe in that 1 start he won man of the match..
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby Leinster Lout » January 8th, 2018, 11:18 am

I'm not sure anybody else has dared suggest this and I take no joy in saying it, but should Isa be the one to drop out of the Euro squad?

I don't think it's too ridiculous to suggest given JGP's performance and my view that Lowe has to start..

I'd possibly still favour McCarthy on the bench but to be honest Lowe, Larmour and Ferg is my preferred back 3 right now and Rob or ROL are good bench options.

I think Jack Mc looks to be back to top form now so could take over the captaincy.
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby CiaranIrl » January 8th, 2018, 11:22 am

Leinster Lout wrote:I'm not sure anybody else has dared suggest this and I take no joy in saying it, but should Isa be the one to drop out of the Euro squad?

I don't think it's too ridiculous to suggest given JGP's performance and my view that Lowe has to start..

I'd possibly still favour McCarthy on the bench but to be honest Lowe, Larmour and Ferg is my preferred back 3 right now and Rob or ROL are good bench options.

I think Jack Mc looks to be back to top form now so could take over the captaincy.


Isa doesn't count towards the two. Saffers and Islanders are exceptions. We get two from Fardy, Lowe & JGP
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby mildlyinterested » January 8th, 2018, 11:28 am

Leinster Lout wrote:I'm not sure anybody else has dared suggest this and I take no joy in saying it, but should Isa be the one to drop out of the Euro squad?

I don't think it's too ridiculous to suggest given JGP's performance and my view that Lowe has to start..

I'd possibly still favour McCarthy on the bench but to be honest Lowe, Larmour and Ferg is my preferred back 3 right now and Rob or ROL are good bench options.

I think Jack Mc looks to be back to top form now so could take over the captaincy.


Given Ringrose's injury, i'd say we will be seeing Nacewa at 12.
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby johng » January 8th, 2018, 11:29 am

Dropping him won't get Lowe into the team either
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby mildlyinterested » January 8th, 2018, 11:41 am

It's Lowe or JGP.

This weekend I'd go with Lowe, next weekend i'd go with JGP.
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby The Doc » January 8th, 2018, 11:44 am

mildlyinterested wrote:It's Lowe or JGP.

This weekend I'd go with Lowe, next weekend i'd go with JGP.


It's an option to give Fardy a rest this weekend and have both
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby mildlyinterested » January 8th, 2018, 11:48 am

The Doc wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:It's Lowe or JGP.

This weekend I'd go with Lowe, next weekend i'd go with JGP.


It's an option to give Fardy a rest this weekend and have both


Not an option I'd consider, given Ryan is absent.
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby Leinster Lout » January 8th, 2018, 12:36 pm

Ah right, sorry, for some reason I thought it was 3 from Lowe, Isa, JGP and Fardy.
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby rooster » January 8th, 2018, 12:56 pm

Oldschool wrote:In simplistic terms and agreeing with a lot of what has been said.
1. The Jackson/Olding affair must be impacting on the Ulster squad.
2. Possession - Ulster cough up possession too easily and don't work hard enough at the breakdown to either protect their own possession or turnover the opposition's possession.
3. Kiss needs to get continuity of selection sorted notwithstanding the need for rotation.
Kiss therefore needs to simplify the way his team plays.
Leinster are at a different level at the moment so forget about competing with us or Scarlets for the moment (unless at home)
We have a coach who is clearly deluded

“I don’t think they’re that much better than us,” Les Kiss, the embattled Ulster director of rugby, protested despite Saturday’s 38-7 scoreline at the RDS telling no lies. “It’s a [downward] spiral. It’s not ideal and it’s hurting us to be that inconsistent, it’s not ideal that’s for sure. That’s the nature of what we’re looking at the minute. That inconsistency, we don’t have a constant dependable style of rugby that we can rely on. We have a chance next week to respond.”
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Re: Leinster vs Ulster, 06/01/18, 17.35pm (Sky, BBC & TG4)

Postby molloyjh » January 8th, 2018, 1:09 pm

rooster wrote:
Oldschool wrote:In simplistic terms and agreeing with a lot of what has been said.
1. The Jackson/Olding affair must be impacting on the Ulster squad.
2. Possession - Ulster cough up possession too easily and don't work hard enough at the breakdown to either protect their own possession or turnover the opposition's possession.
3. Kiss needs to get continuity of selection sorted notwithstanding the need for rotation.
Kiss therefore needs to simplify the way his team plays.
Leinster are at a different level at the moment so forget about competing with us or Scarlets for the moment (unless at home)
We have a coach who is clearly deluded

I don’t think they’re that much better than us,” Les Kiss, the embattled Ulster director of rugby, protested despite Saturday’s 38-7 scoreline at the RDS telling no lies. “It’s a [downward] spiral. It’s not ideal and it’s hurting us to be that inconsistent, it’s not ideal that’s for sure. That’s the nature of what we’re looking at the minute. That inconsistency, we don’t have a constant dependable style of rugby that we can rely on. We have a chance next week to respond.”


It depends on the emphasis within that sentence. If he means that he doesn't think Leinster are 31 points better than Ulster then he's probably right.
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