neiliog93 wrote:Toulon etc get away with it because it only applies to Argentinians (many of whom are entitled to French, Spanish, Italian or German passports due to family lineage and claim them before moving), Kiwis and Aussies. The same is true to a lesser extent for Kiwis and Aussies themselves of course.
Islanders and Saffers are are fine under the rule, in whatever quantity the clubs want.
I get that but why is this rule in place? If it's to prevent teams being filled with foreign players it certainly isn't working and wouldn't make sense because like you say saffers and PIs aren't included. Also does this rule apply to canadians, Moldovans etc?
If a country has signed an association agreement with the EU, its citizens are included under the Kolpak ruling, and thus their right to live and work in EU member states cannot be challenged legally. Moldova and Georgia both signed association agreements with the EU in 2016, so they don't count. So Dmitri Arhip does not count as a non-Kolpak player for the Ospreys, and neither do the plethora of Georgians in France (so from an Irish rugby perspective, rather annoying that Georgia signed the association agreement in 2016!).
Argentina, Canada, the USA, New Zealand and Australia do not have association agreements with the EU and thus their citizens are not covered under the Kolpak ruling. But there are currently free trade agreements being negotiated between the EU and Japan (expected to be signed soon), the EU and New Zealand, the EU and Australia, and the EU and Canada, while the mooted TTIP free trade deal between the EU and USA is all but dead because of Trump. It's my understanding that as these free trade deals are actually much more substantive versions of association agreements, if signed they would count as association agreements for the purposes of Kolpak eligibility. But then again I am not a scholar of international/European law. Can anyone confirm/deny?
It has also been asked on a number of occasions in other threads whether Scott Fardy is entitled to citizenship (and/or the right to live and work freely in Ireland without a visa or other restriction) because he has a child born in Ireland. His daughter is not automatically entitled to Irish citizenship due to Michael McDowell's 2002 referendum, which removed the automatic right of Irish-born people to citizenship/nationality. However, having had a child in Ireland, he will be entitled to Irish citizenship three years after her birth as this demonstrates a "genuine link" with Ireland if he has been living and working here for that period (in fact, it's 3 of the previous 4 years).
As pointed out by someone else above, the real question is how Leinster got themselves into this situation. Added to the visa mess in September in South Africa, questions should be asked of the team management (Guy Easterby?).
Regarding who should be picked, I agree with other posters that Lowe provides the finishing ability that could turn us into cup winners. He has plenty of creases to be ironed out but he looks like he could be a cut above the rest. It's unfortunate that Gibson-Park would have to be sacrificed in such a situation. As noted by ChrisUppy, a disaster would be if a scrum half got injured soon before a game, requiring changes at second row or the back three to accommodate Gibson-Park.
ChrisUppy wrote:What's frightening to me is the prospect of either McCarthey ór McGrath getting injured in the warm up to a big game and us being forced to make two changes late changes to the squad as a result
or
If McGrath or McCarthey sustain a long term injury then it effectively rules one of Fardy or Lowe out for the equivalent time too
Isa as backup 9 or drop Lowe. Fardy is going nowhere if fit.
Could we be in a situation next year where JGP is eligible to play for Ireland but is still considered a "foreigner" at Leinster and not able to be in a squad with Fardy and Lowe?
Keith wrote:These rules really are ridiculous when you look at teams like Toulon and Montpellier. Does anyone know the real reason why this rule exits?
The rules are the rules. Mont, Toulon, Racing, Clermont etc are smart enough to observe and navigate around them. Sometimes French clubs fall foul of them in a give season and just choose players per game. Toulon & Racing have in the past iirc.
On a similar theme there haven't been too many questions asked about how Leinster managed to get themselves into this position.
Was the rule not known/not investigated or did they just sign Lowe because he was a good available player and they decided to deal with the rule later?
Yeah - I was wondering about this one too. This could have slipped through the cracks - particularly if being looked after by the same person responsible for the Visa Nacewa mess up......
No chance this slipped through the cracks.
Whatever about Leinsters oversights with the Visa problems with the South Africa trip, the IRFU signed off on Fardy and Lowes contracts. They're definitely aware of the various rulings around these players. Nucifora being an Aussie I would presume is acutely aware of it.
Aside from that, Fardy and Lowe became available and were willing to play for Leinster. Thats a 40 capped highly rated Wallaby and the Super Rugby top try scorer (or there abouts)
If you've the option of both of these fellas, you jump at it and work around the consequences that come with it
arsebiscuits1 wrote:
No chance this slipped through the cracks.
Whatever about Leinsters oversights with the Visa problems with the South Africa trip, the IRFU signed off on Fardy and Lowes contracts. They're definitely aware of the various rulings around these players. Nucifora being an Aussie I would presume is acutely aware of it.
Aside from that, Fardy and Lowe became available and were willing to play for Leinster. Thats a 40 capped highly rated Wallaby and the Super Rugby top try scorer (or there abouts)
If you've the option of both of these fellas, you jump at it and work around the consequences that come with it
+1 Speculate to accumulate.
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Edna Kenny wrote:Could we be in a situation next year where JGP is eligible to play for Ireland but is still considered a "foreigner" at Leinster and not able to be in a squad with Fardy and Lowe?
I don't think so, I think once he's eligible for Irish selection after three years he'll be ok (even if uncapped and still without Irish citizenship). But maybe not. It's a good question because with four good scrum-half options all under 30 in Ireland, JGP might not get a look-in for Irish selection come 2019-20.
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Edna Kenny wrote:Could we be in a situation next year where JGP is eligible to play for Ireland but is still considered a "foreigner" at Leinster and not able to be in a squad with Fardy and Lowe?
I don't think so, I think once he's eligible for Irish selection after three years he'll be ok (even if uncapped and still without Irish citizenship). But maybe not. It's a good question because with four good scrum-half options all under 30 in Ireland, JGP might not get a look-in for Irish selection come 2019-20.
Ah, he’ll certainly be capped for a start. He’s a ‘project player,’ so the IRFU will want to concert that investment into reality. Then depending on his continued development and injuries, who knows. Not many fancied Boss to pick up the number of caps he gathered.
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Looking very far ahead here (no jokes allowed), JGP doesn't qualify in time for the 2019 world cup and might find it hard to get capped in the 2020 Six Nations, new coach or not. With the pre-/mid-6 nations Wolfhounds fixtures all but consigned to history, the earliest chance to tie him to Ireland could be on the June 2020 two-test tour to Argentina, which I think is the last time Northern hemisphere nations will have any sort of Summer tour in a RWC season. That would mean from a Leinster perspective, the issue might not be solved until the 2020-21 season, if Fardy stays around/they bring in another Antipodean.
"This is breathless stuff.....it's on again. Contepomi out to Hickie,D'Arcy,Hickie.......................HICKIE FOR THE CORNER! THAT IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
neiliog93 wrote:Looking very far ahead here (no jokes allowed), JGP doesn't qualify in time for the 2019 world cup and might find it hard to get capped in the 2020 Six Nations, new coach or not. With the pre-/mid-6 nations Wolfhounds fixtures all but consigned to history, the earliest chance to tie him to Ireland could be on the June 2020 two-test tour to Argentina, which I think is the last time Northern hemisphere nations will have any sort of Summer tour in a RWC season. That would mean from a Leinster perspective, the issue might not be solved until the 2020-21 season, if Fardy stays around/they bring in another Antipodean.
I'm fairly sure JGP arrived early enough in 2016 to qualify in time for RWC 2019. He skipped NPC rugby if I recall correctly. But anyway, would he not need to be in the country for five years to be eligible to apply for an Irish passport and stop counting as non-European?
For me, this is a ridiculously easy decision. Step away from 'what if' questions for a moment because they do little other than muddy the waters and get in the way of reasonable thinking....
JGP is the sub scrum half. He's a SH slightly better than average. He's okay.
James Lowe is a gifted winger woth incredible offloading skills, a great step and a real threat in open field. He walks into our team on the wing and instantly makes up a better XV. If he were from pretty much any other major rugby playing nation, he'd be a capped international.
Having JGP on the bench is not going to turn Leinster into champions. Having Lowe on the field might just do that. Get your best players out there. Don't be worrying about what if McGrath gets injured after 5 mins. Without or without JGP, that's a problem. Lowe is absolute quality. He's a game changer. He should not be left out for an okay sub scrummie.
neiliog93 wrote:Looking very far ahead here (no jokes allowed), JGP doesn't qualify in time for the 2019 world cup and might find it hard to get capped in the 2020 Six Nations, new coach or not. With the pre-/mid-6 nations Wolfhounds fixtures all but consigned to history, the earliest chance to tie him to Ireland could be on the June 2020 two-test tour to Argentina, which I think is the last time Northern hemisphere nations will have any sort of Summer tour in a RWC season. That would mean from a Leinster perspective, the issue might not be solved until the 2020-21 season, if Fardy stays around/they bring in another Antipodean.
I'm fairly sure JGP arrived early enough in 2016 to qualify in time for RWC 2019. He skipped NPC rugby if I recall correctly. But anyway, would he not need to be in the country for five years to be eligible to apply for an Irish passport and stop counting as non-European?
If you're capped, it's one of the exceptions, like being from South Africa Is an exception. It's an odd rule really.
Last edited by CiaranIrl on January 4th, 2018, 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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suisse wrote:For me, this is a ridiculously easy decision. Step away from 'what if' questions for a moment because they do little other than muddy the waters and get in the way of reasonable thinking....
JGP is the sub scrum half. He's a SH slightly better than average. He's okay.
James Lowe is a gifted winger woth incredible offloading skills, a great step and a real threat in open field. He walks into our team on the wing and instantly makes up a better XV. If he were from pretty much any other major rugby playing nation, he'd be a capped international.
Having JGP on the bench is not going to turn Leinster into champions. Having Lowe on the field might just do that. Get your best players out there. Don't be worrying about what if McGrath gets injured after 5 mins. Without or without JGP, that's a problem. Lowe is absolute quality. He's a game changer. He should not be left out for an okay sub scrummie.
The problem really is that the alternative number 21 in our team is not getting any gametime whatsoever. Nick McCarthy has had a sum total of 137 minutes of rugby with the senior team this season. It's all well and good to say that we don't need JGP on the bench, but the alternative needs to be doing a tad better than 0 starts. If they were willing to give McCarthy (who is nearly 23 now) some time on the pitch, I'd be more than happy to see him as the backup.
“As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.”
I don't think this is as clear cut as saying drop JGP. It's a horses for courses decision for me.
Glasgow at home? Lowe as we'll have more ball and will be more comfortable in attack. Mont away? JGP as we'll likely go for a side closer to the Exeter games with more solidity.
JGP, for his faults, brings a lot of good, different things, particularly if we need to chase a game. Montpellier away last season is a good example. It's easy to say 'drop the sub 9' but it's not as simple as that imo.
Also, the one issue with McCarthy is that he seems very similar to McGrath in playing style and is less likely than JGP to turn a game for us from what I've seen of him.
I was all for him getting more gametime, but it hasn't happened unfortunately and both McGrath and JGP have picked up for over last month or so.
He was a wee bit ropey coming on the other night perhaps because of lack of game time, so not sure you'd throw him into an away game in France for eg.
Also, he looks incredibly wiry and small. Him and Marsh look like guys who've never seen the inside of a gym! (Am sure they have, but it's a hindrance at top level rugby to be that small imo).
suisse wrote:For me, this is a ridiculously easy decision. Step away from 'what if' questions for a moment because they do little other than muddy the waters and get in the way of reasonable thinking....
JGP is the sub scrum half. He's a SH slightly better than average. He's okay.
James Lowe is a gifted winger woth incredible offloading skills, a great step and a real threat in open field. He walks into our team on the wing and instantly makes up a better XV. If he were from pretty much any other major rugby playing nation, he'd be a capped international.
Having JGP on the bench is not going to turn Leinster into champions. Having Lowe on the field might just do that. Get your best players out there. Don't be worrying about what if McGrath gets injured after 5 mins. Without or without JGP, that's a problem. Lowe is absolute quality. He's a game changer. He should not be left out for an okay sub scrummie.
I agree with you completely. Lowe is a better attacker than anything we have on the wings and not a step down defensively (except perhaps in being quite up to speed with systems here).
Our management team however appear not to agree, if they did they would have been giving McCarthy significant time in the early part of the season to prepare him for the task and they have not. It was notable before and it looks like a glaring omission now.
suisse wrote:For me, this is a ridiculously easy decision. Step away from 'what if' questions for a moment because they do little other than muddy the waters and get in the way of reasonable thinking....
JGP is the sub scrum half. He's a SH slightly better than average. He's okay.
James Lowe is a gifted winger woth incredible offloading skills, a great step and a real threat in open field. He walks into our team on the wing and instantly makes up a better XV. If he were from pretty much any other major rugby playing nation, he'd be a capped international.
Having JGP on the bench is not going to turn Leinster into champions. Having Lowe on the field might just do that. Get your best players out there. Don't be worrying about what if McGrath gets injured after 5 mins. Without or without JGP, that's a problem. Lowe is absolute quality. He's a game changer. He should not be left out for an okay sub scrummie.
I agree with you completely. Lowe is a better attacker than anything we have on the wings and not a step down defensively (except perhaps in being quite up to speed with systems here).
Our management team however appear not to agree, if they did they would have been giving McCarthy significant time in the early part of the season to prepare him for the task and they have not. It was notable before and it looks like a glaring omission now.
Unless they f%~ked up again.
Hmmm, not so sure about that. On the evidence of his first three games you can't say that certainly. Isa and Ferg, while they're nowhere as near as sharp going forward, are excellent, solid defensive wingers.
Lowe's game is a bit looser, which we will definitely need for some games, but maybe might choose to play it differently for others.
I don't think they f%~ked up. What I think happened was that the best non-AB winger in Super Rugby was available, he fit the qualification profile of a project player and the IRFU/Leinster Rugby decided to move quickly for him knowing that whilst there might be player-limit issues down the line, they were more than off-set by getting an elite standard player into the Irish system under the then soon to end 3 year qualification period . Lowe presented too good an opportunity to miss.
