Leinster v Munster 2018 Pro14 S/F 19th May RDS

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I did think the Kleyn card could easily have been red but it was not so blatantly a red that I would complain about it.

I agree with that but not because I want Kleyn punished, but because I think we should draw attention to how bad the TMO was.

[OTT]

I thought it was probably a red for Kleyn it was absolute headless stuff, it reminded me of Healy for us against Exeter at home. I was annoyed with Healy at the time for his stupidity and it could have been a red card that day for him which probably would have cost us the game and the fairytale could have had a very different ending.

Munster fans should be more annoyed with their own player for probably costing them the match by being reckless in a situation that really did not need anything at all from him other then stepping over the ruck then defending him and creating stupid tit for tat scenarios. Support your team but don't be blind, Kleyn was an absolute eejit.

Seriously tough game, was great to have a Leinster vs Munster game back at the RDS.

[wixfjord]

By the by, Healy gave up and absolutely brainded penalty of his own. Great cameo otherwise but I wish he could totally cut that stuff out of his game.

[molloyjh]

You can bang on about the card all you want but inky one player was stretchered off due to illegal play and he was in red. I'm sure Luke McGrath didn't intend the injury he caused to JOD but there it is, illegally bound in the ruck and a promising young player facing a potentially career ending injury.

What Luke did happens at almost every ruck in every game. Players are always illegally held at the ruck these days. Always. It was a complete freak accident with a few things all combining to make it happen. cr@p as hell for poor JOD, but not something you can pin on any one person.

Kleyn on the other hand did what he did all by himself, with little or no regard for the damage he alone was possibly doing. The two things are leagues apart.

[molloyjh]

No problem with the YC or even a RC and have already wished ye luck in the final. Just pointing out what to me was the most serious incident. The kind of thing I get used to Munster being accused of all the time, cynical play resulting in a serious injury. Whether or not it happens all the time it is illegal and has resulted in a serous injury.

But it didn't by itself result in a serious injury. Nor did the very same thing result in serious injury any other time any other player did it on Saturday. The outcome was certainly the worst outcome, but it wasn't all down to Luke. I don't doubt some of the more rabid fans might use that kind of thing against Munster from time to time, but anyone with an ounce of objectivity wouldn't. There was no way to know what would happen in that case.

[wixfjord]

No problem with the YC or even a RC and have already wished ye luck in the final. Just pointing out what to me was the most serious incident. The kind of thing I get used to Munster being accused of all the time, cynical play resulting in a serious injury. Whether or not it happens all the time it is illegal and has resulted in a serous injury.

Come off it man, there's no comparison between the two incidents. One was a fairly minor piece of cynical ruck play that unfortunately resulted in a bad accidental injury after JOD got his leg caught.
The other was a fairly major piece of dirty/careless (delete as appropriate) ruck play, a non-accidental head on head collision that luckily didn't result in a bad injury.

Your attempt to call one as bad as the other is incredibly blinkered and ignores any shade of nuance. You're essentially saying that because Byrne wasn't seriously injured then it's not as serious!

Just because someone suffered an accidental injury doesn't make them comparable.

[molloyjh]

An accidental injury caused by illegal play

Indirectly caused by illegal play. There's a big, big difference between direct and indirect.

[Dexter]

An accidental injury caused by illegal play

Indirectly caused by illegal play. There's a big, big difference between direct and indirect.

Why do you think its illegal?

Can you give up on the "whataboutery"? Tiresome and pointless.

[molloyjh]

Why do you think its illegal?

Honestly? Because of the conversations I've heard on it (from people I trust) more than anything. I saw the game live and watched it back drunk, so my recollection isn't perfect. As I understand it McGrath held JOD in the ruck which left him in the position he was in when he got injured.

[Fireworks]

I have a question around stopping the clock. Just to be clear I have no issue with this but think it is an interesting anomaly.

In that game Munster got their late try with just over a minute to go. The ref stopped the clock to go to the TMO. When he awarded the try and started the clock again Keatley was set up for the conversion and took it immediately which allowed for a restart. Had the try been scored in the corner with no need to go to the TMO the clock would not have been stopped and it may have taken more that the remaining time to collected the ball and take the kick.

Should a team be allowed to benefit from the TMO stopped clock.

The opposite of that is should a team be punished because the ref has to go to the TMO?

I would imagine that had the try been scored in the corner as you suggest with time as it was, they would have either gone for a quick drop or declined the conversion and play would have had to restart (once the conversion is attempted before time elapses there must be a restart - so if they took a quick drop and the kicker strikes the ball before 80:00:00 then the game restarts)

Would agree. I do not think it is an issue. More a point of interest, for me anyway.

I don't think the clock stopping for the TMO or any other reason should either benefit or punish you. It might be something to consider allowing the ref some latitude on if it ever became an issue.

[Fireworks]

I did think the Kleyn card could easily have been red but it was not so blatantly a red that I would complain about it.

I agree with that but not because I want Kleyn punished, but because I think we should draw attention to how bad the TMO was.

On the positive front Kleyn's season is over with no silverware and we are in our second final with on cup in the bag.

[molloyjh]

Sorry I meant that my assumption is that binding people in is illegal specifically because it increases the risk of injury.

Anyway, thanks for the interaction, I'll leave it there. Good luck again

Ah sorry, read that wrong. I don't think it has anything to do with injury. I think it's more to do with attacking teams looking to take an extra defender out of the line to create space in and around the ruck. Same way teams go beyond the ruck a lot these days, trying to create a hole for a pick and go.

Anyway, thanks. Good luck for next season.

[locho]

I have a question around stopping the clock. Just to be clear I have no issue with this but think it is an interesting anomaly.

In that game Munster got their late try with just over a minute to go. The ref stopped the clock to go to the TMO. When he awarded the try and started the clock again Keatley was set up for the conversion and took it immediately which allowed for a restart. Had the try been scored in the corner with no need to go to the TMO the clock would not have been stopped and it may have taken more that the remaining time to collected the ball and take the kick.

Should a team be allowed to benefit from the TMO stopped clock.

The opposite of that is should a team be punished because the ref has to go to the TMO?

I would imagine that had the try been scored in the corner as you suggest with time as it was, they would have either gone for a quick drop or declined the conversion and play would have had to restart (once the conversion is attempted before time elapses there must be a restart - so if they took a quick drop and the kicker strikes the ball before 80:00:00 then the game restarts)

Would agree. I do not think it is an issue. More a point of interest, for me anyway.

I don't think the clock stopping for the TMO or any other reason should either benefit or punish you. It might be something to consider allowing the ref some latitude on if it ever became an issue.

I noticed this on the terrace and couldn't understand it, I get that the clock stops for the TMO decision (no issue there) however as soon as the ref indicated the try the clock surely should restart. That wasn't the case on Saturday it was at least another 45 seconds just as we kicked off that it did. Usually this is not an issue however when the clocked is stopped at 78:56 then 45 seconds can be quite the difference. I still think a restart would have been required but effectively Munster we're given almost an extra minute to play with.

Why didn't the clock restart, i get that usually this is indicated by a ref, but when it's on a try decision surely the indication of the try is the trigger?

[Lar]

Isn't it all a bit irrelevant? As long as there was a few seconds on the clock when the conversion was attempted/scored then the referee re-starts the game. Munster then re-took possession and retained it until Max Deegan's intervention. If that had been three or four minutes after the clock went red (BTW - not a fan of the siren on 80 minutes) it would not have made any difference. Even if Munster had won a penalty play would have continued.

[Fireworks]

Isn't it all a bit irrelevant? As long as there was a few seconds on the clock when the conversion was attempted/scored then the referee re-starts the game. Munster then re-took possession and retained it until Max Deegan's intervention. If that had been three or four minutes after the clock went red (BTW - not a fan of the siren on 80 minutes) it would not have made any difference. Even if Munster had won a penalty play would have continued.

It is not really an issue and definitely was not in this case but it could be. The point is that there might not have been a few seconds left after the conversion attempt if the TMO had not stopped the clock which allows the kick to be lined up without eating into the time left.

I think I will leave this one here as it is not something to get too worked up about. Just an observation.

[Dave Cahill]

Yeah, its not an issue but it was an interesting question.

[Lar]

Yeah, its not an issue but it was an interesting question.

True and I did notice (as did many others in the RDS) that the clock did not re-start until after the ball was kicked off, which I felt was wrong at the time.

[paddyor]

Who knows whether it was intentionally dirty or what was going through his head, but, tbf to Kleyn, players are put in a very difficult situation being asked to clear out when defenders are in the sort of position that Byrne was in. Like, on the one hand your job is to remove the turnover threat and conversely there's often a head directly in your path.

He needs to be more careful though. Could easily have been red. Probably should have been

From my vantage point it was a red card all day long. In the next ruck immediately after this he had another cheap shot, can't recall on who it was. He also tends to leave the forearm in the face of the player he's just cleaned out.

You can bang on about the card all you want but inky one player was stretchered off due to illegal play and he was in red. I'm sure Luke McGrath didn't intend the injury he caused to JOD but there it is, illegally bound in the ruck and a promising young player facing a potentially career ending injury.

[artaneboy]

The long kicking from McGrath was a baffling strategy. Put us under a lot of pressure. That and a load of other errors and turnovers.
We should have won a lot more easily. Officials were poor, but we made life difficult for ourselves.
But we won.

Lowe was by far the best attacking player on the pitch. But he also missed at least 2 tackles and is down for 3 turnovers. Made a couple of poor reads but they did target him.
So I think both sides of the argument here protest too much.
Our back three performed just as we expected in fact.

Delighted to win. That performance would see us lose against Scarlets though.

Agree with all of this. Compare our box kicking to Murray's in terms of quality and it was world's apart. Murray gave them a chance to contest/win possession every time. We just booted the ball long and got set for the counter. We looked extremely leggy on Saturday, we should have won more comfortably but thankfully got over the line in the end.

Our lineout was poor, Munster made hay all day either by stealing, disrupting or turning over our lineout maul on their own line.

The positive is obviously the result, but the performance will need to be much better if we're to have a chance of beating Scarlets. In our last 5 matches (Benneton, Scarlets, Connacht, Racing, Munster) the only great performance was against Scarlets in the European semi final, perhaps a long season post Lions tour and Grand Slam exertions are finally taking their toll.

On a completely different note, I thought the self proclaimed Best Fans in The World (TM) were supposed to be somewhat knowledgeable? I had 2 utter morons sitting behind me. They complained about every decision that went our way. I finally called them on their bullshit when Larmour tried to intercept a pass on their penalty advantage and they called for a yellow card. Then they started on about Leinster having a sense of entitlement. They thought Kleyn was hard done by (should have been red) but he was only sin binned because the crowd booed and the ref was a disgrace. They wanted Ross Byrne red carded for tackling Earls as he scored. It really was painful listening to them. They didn't even stay until the end, as soon as Carbery scored the decisive penalty the f**ked off. They really can't cope that we're a better, more successful team than them. It's great!

Kicking long could have been a tactic.

If it was- it was a very poor one!

It is a bit puzzling- because some of us had big issues with his passing- but his kicking (like in fairness, the rest of his game) was usually a strength. Maybe he is injured- in which case this performance indicates he’s not playing well with this particular hinderance, and Jamie should be picked for the final.


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[curates_egg]

Looked totally like it was intentional.
Maybe they determined their wings are better under the high ball, so no joy could be had. It seemed an odd alternative, reminiscent of MOCball.
Thankfully, we were good enough elsewhere; and Munster knocked on almost as much as we did, which was odd for such a nice day.