Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby Lar » May 21st, 2018, 2:10 pm

Where can I find the Rules for the seedings?

Is there a chance that if we are beaten next Saturday we would be in Pot 2 even though we are European Champions?

Also is the following not an anomaly (qualification for the Champions Cup as per EPCR website):

EPCR website wrote:In accordance with a decision of the EPCR Board comprising the nine unions, federations and league bodies, the 20th place in the Champions Cup will be determined as follows:

i) Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner


So if Racing 92 had not qualified for the Champions Cup via the Top 14 this season Gloucester would have got in ahead of them as losing Challenge Cup finalist?
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby cormac » May 21st, 2018, 3:27 pm

Lar wrote:Where can I find the Rules for the seedings?

Is there a chance that if we are beaten next Saturday we would be in Pot 2 even though we are European Champions?

Also is the following not an anomaly (qualification for the Champions Cup as per EPCR website):

EPCR website wrote:In accordance with a decision of the EPCR Board comprising the nine unions, federations and league bodies, the 20th place in the Champions Cup will be determined as follows:

i) Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner


So if Racing 92 had not qualified for the Champions Cup via the Top 14 this season Gloucester would have got in ahead of them as losing Challenge Cup finalist?


There are four tiers for the draw seeded as such.

Tier 1: Winners of all three league (that's the winner of the final) + 2 of the 3 runners-up*
Tier 2: 1 of the 3 runners-up, all third ranked teams from each league**, plus 1 of the 3 4th ranked teams from each league***
Tier 3: Other 2 4th ranked teams plus the 3 5th ranked teams from each league
Tier 4: 3 6th ranked teams, Winners of Pro14 play-offs, plus 20th team

* this is done by a separate draw on the same day as main draw - this will be the fifth draw in this new format. French teams have ended up in Tier 2 on three occasions with the Pro14 runners-up getting drawn there once.

** teams beaten in the semi-finals (and quarter-finals in Pro14 and Top14) are separated by final league position. So in the Pro14 Glasgow will be ranked third and Munster fourth as Glasgow had more points at the end of the regular season.

*** Whichever league's runner-up is drawn into Tier 2, their fourth seeded team is also drawn in Tier 2. So, if Leinster are in Tier 2 so will Munster be.


At the moment it's looking as follows;

Tier 1: Winners of all three league (that's the winner of the final) + 2 of the 3 runners-up
Tier 2: 1 of the 3 runners-up, Glasgow, Wasps plus French third seeds, plus 1 of Munster, Newcastle or French 4th seeds
Tier 3: Two of Munster, Newcastle and French 4th seeds, Toulouse, Edinburgh, Leicester
Tier 4: Cardiff, Bath, Toulon, Ulster, Gloucester

Teams remaining to be allocated spots
Pro14: Leinster, Scarlets
Aviva: Exeter, Saracens
Top14: Montpellier, Racing 92, Lyon, Castres

When the draw itself is made, each group must be made up of one team from each league from the first three tiers, plus Leinster can't be drawn with Ulster and Scarlets can't be drawn against Cardiff from Tier 4.
e.g. if Leinster are top seed then we must get an English/French from Tier 2 and whichever one we don't get from Tier 2 we get in Tier 3. Essentially means we can't be drawn against Glasgow/Munster/Edinburgh.
Last edited by cormac on May 22nd, 2018, 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby Lar » May 21st, 2018, 4:27 pm

Thank you. A complicated formula clearly explained. I had seen something like this before but could not find it online recently.

Daft that Leinster might be Tier 2 as Champions (presume that is why Saracens and Clermont were drawn against each other this year?).

I know it does not apply this year but it does also seem crazy that the runners up of the Challenge Cup can qualify ahead of the runners up of the Champions Cup.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby desperado » May 21st, 2018, 10:17 pm

molloyjh wrote:
Dexter wrote:
A16 wrote:The seeding system for the Champions Cup has to be changed. Surely they can come up with a metric that gauges how well a team performs both domestically and in Europe. If that was the case, we wouldn’t have these kind of scenarios.

Exactly. The current system is a bit daft, throws up some strange seedings - taking into account European Cup progress as well.


How do you do that when Toulouse were in the Challenge Cup last season? The leagues are the most consistent way of managing it really. Although maybe final league position makes more sense, ignoring the knock outs.


Well; the old seeding in HC days was iirc based entirely on European performance. In my opinion, seeding in a competition should be based on performance in that competition. How can seedings across 3 different leagues be baselined fairly.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby John23 » May 21st, 2018, 10:58 pm

It's what the Nigels wanted.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby Peg Leg » May 22nd, 2018, 7:00 am

desperado wrote:
molloyjh wrote:
Dexter wrote:[quote="A16"]The seeding system for the Champions Cup has to be changed. Surely they can come up with a metric that gauges how well a team performs both domestically and in Europe. If that was the case, we wouldn’t have these kind of scenarios.

Exactly. The current system is a bit daft, throws up some strange seedings - taking into account European Cup progress as well.


How do you do that when Toulouse were in the Challenge Cup last season? The leagues are the most consistent way of managing it really. Although maybe final league position makes more sense, ignoring the knock outs.


Well; the old seeding in HC days was iirc based entirely on European performance. In my opinion, seeding in a competition should be based on performance in that competition. How can seedings across 3 different leagues be baselined fairly.[/quote]Works well for the champions league
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby Lar » May 22nd, 2018, 8:40 am

No it doesn’t work like that for the Champions League.
The seeding for Pot 1 in the CL is determined by which side won the league in the top countries around Europe but Pots 2-4 are based entirely on how well a team has performed in Europe over the last five seasons, with participation in the Europa League only slightly less favorably weighted than that in the main competition.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby neill_m » May 24th, 2018, 9:34 am

Top 14 Barrage Semi Finals this week (Dates/KO Time/TV Coverage in the Top 14 thread)

Montpellier (1) v Lyon (5)

Racing 92 (2) v Castres (6)

In terms of the 18/19 draw, as they finished top of the tree in the regular season - Montpellier will be the best SF loser worst case and can be no lower than T14 No3 in Pot 2. The other sides depending on the results and the mini draw before the main draw can be T14 Nos 1-4 and in Pot 1, Pot 2 or Pot 3.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby D4surfer » May 27th, 2018, 12:11 pm

neill_m wrote:Top 14 Barrage Semi Finals this week (Dates/KO Time/TV Coverage in the Top 14 thread)

Montpellier (1) v Lyon (5)

Racing 92 (2) v Castres (6)

In terms of the 18/19 draw, as they finished top of the tree in the regular season - Montpellier will be the best SF loser worst case and can be no lower than T14 No3 in Pot 2. The other sides depending on the results and the mini draw before the main draw can be T14 Nos 1-4 and in Pot 1, Pot 2 or Pot 3.


Montpellier v Castres in the Final. What chance we get Racing in our pool?
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby neill_m » May 27th, 2018, 12:23 pm

D4surfer wrote:
neill_m wrote:Top 14 Barrage Semi Finals this week (Dates/KO Time/TV Coverage in the Top 14 thread)

Montpellier (1) v Lyon (5)

Racing 92 (2) v Castres (6)

In terms of the 18/19 draw, as they finished top of the tree in the regular season - Montpellier will be the best SF loser worst case and can be no lower than T14 No3 in Pot 2. The other sides depending on the results and the mini draw before the main draw can be T14 Nos 1-4 and in Pot 1, Pot 2 or Pot 3.


Montpellier v Castres in the Final. What chance we get Racing in our pool?


So Leinster are in Pot 1, Racing Pot 2. Have to get a T14 or Prem side from Pot 2. Very possible to draw Racing and their disco stadium.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby Xanthippe » May 27th, 2018, 5:20 pm

Image
Last edited by Xanthippe on May 28th, 2018, 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby neill_m » May 27th, 2018, 10:13 pm

Xanthippe wrote:Image


Very useful. Thanks.

Toulouse are Pot 3 and Toulon Pot 4 I think.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby Xanthippe » May 28th, 2018, 12:16 am

neill_m wrote:
Very useful. Thanks.

Toulouse are Pot 3 and Toulon Pot 4 I think.

Shouldn’t be - Toulon finished 4th and Toulouse 5th in regular season
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby neill_m » May 28th, 2018, 12:34 am

Xanthippe wrote:
neill_m wrote:
Very useful. Thanks.

Toulouse are Pot 3 and Toulon Pot 4 I think.

Shouldn’t be - Toulon finished 4th and Toulouse 5th in regular season


Toulouse finished 3rd. Lost to 6th placed Castres in the T14 playoffs. Lyon finished 5th.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby Xanthippe » May 28th, 2018, 1:04 am

neill_m wrote:
Xanthippe wrote:
neill_m wrote:
Very useful. Thanks.

Toulouse are Pot 3 and Toulon Pot 4 I think.

Shouldn’t be - Toulon finished 4th and Toulouse 5th in regular season


Toulouse finished 3rd. Lost to 6th placed Castres in the T14 playoffs. Lyon finished 5th.


See what I get for using Ultimate Rugby instead of my own stats!!!

Fixed now

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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby D4surfer » May 28th, 2018, 9:53 am

So we can't draw Glasgow or Edinburgh. The only Pro 14 team we can get is Cardiff.

Lyon, Newcastle and Cardiff would be good. Racing, Leicester and Toulon not so good. However, after this year nobody will want to be drawn with us. Bring it on.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby footrush » May 28th, 2018, 10:09 am

If Castres, Newcastle, Cardiff is possible I’d like that draw thanks !.
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby Cianostays » May 28th, 2018, 10:25 am

D4surfer wrote:So we can't draw Glasgow or Edinburgh. The only Pro 14 team we can get is Cardiff.

Lyon, Newcastle and Cardiff would be good. Racing, Leicester and Toulon not so good. However, after this year nobody will want to be drawn with us. Bring it on.
I'd say nobody wants us alright. Genuinely excited with who we could get. Last year we got an awful draw and look what happened.

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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby rdsblue » May 28th, 2018, 9:25 pm

Edinburgh and Gloucester appear to be missing from the pools as set out above is there a reason for this?
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Re: Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

Postby Grumpy Old Man » May 28th, 2018, 9:31 pm

rdsblue wrote:Edinburgh and Gloucester appear to be missing from the pools as set out above is there a reason for this?

I think there’s a column missing - should be 5 pools.
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