Pro14 Final Leinster v Scarlets Sat 6PM Aviva Stadium

[domhnallj]

Scarlets are complaining about burns - this study is muscle recovery.

My experience with muscle soreness is that it is related to pitch hardness. I play touch rugby (no tag in Belgium) in the summer months, and your muscles would be more sore after playing on a non-watered grass pitch than a good quality artificial surface.

I've had burns on both. Got a pretty serious one on an artificial pitch last year. The difference is that - while you might not want to slide on the burned area, and there is an infection risk - it has no real impact on your ability to play.

Scarlets are complaining that they can't train due to playing on artificial turf - there is an obvious impact.

[leinsterforever]

I'd be quite concerned about Larmour's defence up against the Scarlets' left edge attack. He came rushing in on Scannell the phase before Earls's try and if the ball had gone it was a walk-in for Munster. Maybe I'm being unfair because maybe he knows Scannell's tells and was able to sense that he probably wasn't going to pass but the pass was still open and if Scannell had opted for it I think Larmour's rush in would have looked like a major blooper. He's also not quite doing it in attack from the wing. I think the space from fullback suits him a lot better. It would be a big ask if Barry Daly was dropped into the team for the Final, but I wonder if he'd be a better option.

[curates_egg]

Scarlets are complaining about burns - this study is muscle recovery.

My experience with muscle soreness is that it is related to pitch hardness. I play touch rugby (no tag in Belgium) in the summer months, and your muscles would be more sore after playing on a non-watered grass pitch than a good quality artificial surface.

I've had burns on both. Got a pretty serious one on an artificial pitch last year. The difference is that - while you might not want to slide on the burned area, and there is an infection risk - it has no real impact on your ability to play.

Scarlets are complaining that they can't train due to playing on artificial turf - there is an obvious impact.

There are also studies showing higher incidences of joint injuries from artificial pitches, which you could have referenced. But they also would have been largely irrelevant.

Scarlets players are suffering from burns: not muscle soreness, dislocations or torn ligaments.
The difference between burns, and all the others, is that they don't impact on playing ability in terms of recovery (you can play with a bad burn, as mentioned). Scarlets are opting to let them not train but their fitness will not be impacted on Saturday.
That is the point I am trying to make.

There is a very interesting wider discussion about all the negative consequences of artificial pitches, but I don't think it is that relevant for this weekend.

[wixfjord]

I don't we'll see him dropped, but I agree on both fronts, defensively and offensively. He strikes me as the anti Adam Byrne, in that Byrne seems to be often tentative to get involved and make decisions or take the ball on himself, while Larmour always backs himself and tries to make the big play constantly and do it all himself. I think he needs to tone that down a bit, but in fairness he's still ridiculously young. Him and Steff Evans will be an interesting match up.

[wixfjord]

Scarlets are complaining about burns - this study is muscle recovery.

My experience with muscle soreness is that it is related to pitch hardness. I play touch rugby (no tag in Belgium) in the summer months, and your muscles would be more sore after playing on a non-watered grass pitch than a good quality artificial surface.

I've had burns on both. Got a pretty serious one on an artificial pitch last year. The difference is that - while you might not want to slide on the burned area, and there is an infection risk - it has no real impact on your ability to play.

Scarlets are complaining that they can't train due to playing on artificial turf - there is an obvious impact.

There are also studies showing higher incidences of joint injuries from artificial pitches, which you could have referenced. But they also would have been largely irrelevant.

Scarlets players are suffering from burns: not muscle soreness, dislocations or torn ligaments.
The difference between burns, and all the others, is that they don't impact on playing ability in terms of recovery (you can play with a bad burn, as mentioned). Scarlets are opting to let them not train but their fitness will not be impacted on Saturday.
That is the point I am trying to make.

There is a very interesting wider discussion about all the negative consequences of artificial pitches, but I don't think it is that relevant for this weekend.

I think John Barclay's injury on Friday wouldn't have happened on a grass pitch.

[neiliog93]

I've played on artificial pitches (also in Belgium) and the burns can be horrific if you're unlucky. I'm definitely more tired after a game but I think that's more because the hard pitch increases the speed of the game (with players' feet not sinking into the mud, everyone moves faster). But this would also apply to a hard grass pitch. My joints are also definitely sorer after playing on artificial pitches and I have developed a proclivity for ankle sprains that I never had previously (I know correlation is not causation, but still).

With regard to this game, I agree with people's comments re.Larmour (and Lowe). They need to stay on their wing in defence a bit more. Lowe got away with rushing up a couple of times last weekend and sometimes it's the right call, but the Scarlets are so snappy and accurate in their passing and lines of running you'd feel they could cut us asunder with that type of carry-on.

[kermischocolate]

Strange every other team has managed fine pitch wise this year.

Scarlets seem to be getting their excuses in early.
Please stuff them on Saturday.

Why would Barclay's injury not have happened on a grass pitch?

[wixfjord]

Strange every other team has managed fine pitch wise this year.

Scarlets seem to be getting their excuses in early.
Please stuff them on Saturday.

Why would Barclay's injury not have happened on a grass pitch?

Leg gets stuck and twists with literally nobody around him. The lack of give in the pitch must've been a major factor.

As Neil has said above, ankle and achilles seem a particular problem on these pitches.

[curates_egg]

Strange every other team has managed fine pitch wise this year.

Scarlets seem to be getting their excuses in early.
Please stuff them on Saturday.

Why would Barclay's injury not have happened on a grass pitch?

Leg gets stuck and twists with literally nobody around him. The lack of give in the pitch must've been a major factor.

As Neil has said above, ankle and achilles seem a particular problem on these pitches.

I think there is now an emerging body of research to support the anecdotal evidence about injuries: dislocations, joints, muscle recovery.

As for Barclay's injury, I'm not sure. I've seen plenty of those injuries from people getting studs planted in turf. Jordi Murphy in Soldier Field being the obvious one.

As for Scarlets now complaining about astroturf burns (they don't seem to be complaining about Barclay's injury), it does seem a bit odd to be raising this now. How many times have they played there before? How many other teams have played there this season.
There is already a post on the fan forum claiming it was deliberate by Glasgow not watering the pitch...which is the most preposterous nonsense I have seen. How could they have ensured only Scarlets players got burns.

[wixfjord]

Strange every other team has managed fine pitch wise this year.

Scarlets seem to be getting their excuses in early.
Please stuff them on Saturday.

Why would Barclay's injury not have happened on a grass pitch?

Leg gets stuck and twists with literally nobody around him. The lack of give in the pitch must've been a major factor.

As Neil has said above, ankle and achilles seem a particular problem on these pitches.

I think there is now an emerging body of research to support the anecdotal evidence about injuries: dislocations, joints, muscle recovery.

As for Barclay's injury, I'm not sure. I've seen plenty of those injuries from people getting studs planted in turf. Jordi Murphy in Soldier Field being the obvious one.

As for Scarlets now complaining about astroturf burns (they don't seem to be complaining about Barclay's injury), it does seem a bit odd to be raising this now. How many times have they played there before? How many other teams have played there this season.
There is already a post on the fan forum claiming it was deliberate by Glasgow not watering the pitch...which is the most preposterous nonsense I have seen. How could they have ensured only Scarlets players got burns.

Yep, another hard field with no give, surely that supports the point? Fair enough, it's probably wrong to say these injuries don't happen on grass pitches, but they do seem more prevalent on the 4G.

[riocard911]

On a number of occasion's while guesting on the joe.ie podcast The Hard Yards RO'G made it extremely clear, that he hates artificial pitches, as he thinks playing on them causes too much wear and tear to player's joints.

[curates_egg]

Yep, another hard field with no give, surely that supports the point? Fair enough, it's probably wrong to say these injuries don't happen on grass pitches, but they do seem more prevalent on the 4G.

Soldier's Field is (or certainly used to be until last season) criticised for being a sloppy mess with more "give" than any other pitch in NFL...but we are on way too much of a tangent.
You certainly wouldn't get as many burns on Soldier's Field as other NFL stadiums.

[neiliog93]

The other thing about artificial pitches is that the ball bounces much faster than on turf pitches. If you've ever played as a soccer goalkeeper on an artificial pitch, you'll know how much harder this makes it to save low, hard shots for example (they just fly along). I think in 20 years as the body of research grows we'll be looking back shaking our heads at the silliness of the artificial pitch era. It even makes the impact of hitting the ground after a tackle much worse.

[Ruckedtobits]

Not impressed with selection of Stuart Berry. Very poor performance last weekend in Lein v Mun.

[Oldschool]

Scarlets as big as 4/1. Handicap around 11 points.
Huge odds, which defy our recent league form.
If we can summon up our European form, then they make more sense.

I hope McGrath is fully fit, because we are going to need Lowe to help us score tries...and that means PGJ missing out.

I've recently been wondering how did we manage to score tries before we signed Lowe it's a real mystery.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Scarlets as big as 4/1. Handicap around 11 points.
Huge odds, which defy our recent league form.
If we can summon up our European form, then they make more sense.

I hope McGrath is fully fit, because we are going to need Lowe to help us score tries...and that means PGJ missing out.

I've recently been wondering how did we manage to score tries before we signed Lowe it's a real mystery.

A lot of the time by bludgeoning over after sustained forward pressure in opposing 22

[Oldschool]

Scarlets as big as 4/1. Handicap around 11 points.
Huge odds, which defy our recent league form.
If we can summon up our European form, then they make more sense.

I hope McGrath is fully fit, because we are going to need Lowe to help us score tries...and that means PGJ missing out.

I've recently been wondering how did we manage to score tries before we signed Lowe it's a real mystery.

A lot of the time by bludgeoning over after sustained forward pressure in opposing 22

So we have other options, which is very important.

[the spoofer]

I've seen three concussions this year from players suffering whiplash injuries on artificial pitches that wouldn't have happened on grass.

[The Doc]

Scarlets players are suffering from burns: not muscle soreness, dislocations or torn ligaments.
The difference between burns, and all the others, is that they don't impact on playing ability in terms of recovery (you can play with a bad burn, as mentioned). Scarlets are opting to let them not train but their fitness will not be impacted on Saturday.
That is the point I am trying to make.

I heard an interview with one of them - they were also complaining of numb feet two days after - that was stopping them training rather than the burns. But - as was said, not sure why it is suddenly an issue and not mentioned during the season

[olaf the fat]

Its a bit of a smoke screen. Last game of a long season, they played last weekend and have prepped to play us only a few weeks ago, I'd say training is not that critical this week compared to recovery and review.