Pre-Season 2018/19

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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby hugonaut » August 22nd, 2018, 8:29 am

Peg Leg wrote:
hugonaut wrote:
leinsterforever wrote:Marsh has to be injured, surely? Can't see why they wouldn't call him up if he isn't

Edit: Jimmy O'Brien the best bet at 10 otherwise? - based purely on what I've read online about the two warm-up games


I think I'm in the minority on the board on this issue, but I just don't rate Marsh as a pro. Never have. To be frank, I've no interest in seeing him in Leinster colours again.

He's 26 and neither a proven player at pro level nor a guy who was an outstanding talent as a youngster, but missed out on his shot with Leinster because of injury/maturity/NIQs/sundry issues. He's had six years - three years in the senior squad....

With Frawley injured, I think it should come to either Noel Reid or Jimmy O'Brien at No10. Reider has way more experience of how our systems work....

Not to nit pick (I agree with you), but did you not say something similar RE: Noel Reid last year?


I said that Reider should be pushed to resume place-kicking and to cover out half, because he wasn't providing enough value to the squad solely as a No12. I stand by those remarks. I was happy to see him selected at outhalf in the first friendly against Montauban, as I said in the thread on that match ... happy because I'd been proved right!

Despite the obvious slack points in Reider's game as a pro, I would always be more positive about him than Cathal Marsh. Reider can do certain things on the rugby pitch really, really well.

EDIT: It was after the Connacht game on New Years Day [source: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24964&start=120 - page 7]:

hugonaut wrote:
wixfjord wrote:I think, as someone has said above, we just need to accept Reid for what he is at this stage. A talented 12 who is excellent at certain parts of the game (footwork, running in space and passing) and poor at certain parts of the game (tackling & physicality). He’s very effective at a certain level and in fairness has been very good for 18 months. His tackling has much improved in general.

He’s the type of guy that we need in a squad. Low cost, well capable of playing in Pro14, can step up when needed and is happy to bench for Henshaw.

In all fairness, he is due one poor game, so shouldn’t be written off based on that.

On the other hand, I’d be worried seeing him over next few weeks if Henshaw was injured.


Agree with you on Reider, it's a level-headed assessment. I've really warmed to him over the last three or four years while retaining some completely unshakeable reservations!

I think he's a bit of a board favourite. There's a lot of season ticket holders here and Reider plays a lot of Pro12 rugby – 21 games last season, 16 the season before. We see a lot of him in the RDS and personally I think you build up an appreciation of the guys you see play week in, week out.

I've said it before, but I'd like to see two things from him: place-kicking and acting as a stand-in No10. He was an outstanding place-kicker as a schoolboy player and very handy as an Irish U20. He's done it before. Obviously getting the tee back out would make him a more useful player to us, and it would give him a bigger role in the squad.

The same would apply if he put himself forward as outhalf cover/fourth choice. He played a lot of No10 in his formative years, so it's not like he's never done it before. Given the makeup of our squad and the set-up of Irish rugby, Jonny Sexton is going to play very, very few games for us, so we need two back-ups ... and we have them in the two lads, Carberry and Byrne. But Cathal Marsh is [for me] excess baggage. Having a fourth choice No10 on the books who only plays one position and whom nobody has any faith in is a bad bit of business.

And the same line of thinking should apply to Reider, albeit not the same outcome. He needs a bit of a push to add more value to Leinster, because a guy who only plays one position [No12] and who isn't exerting the slightest pressure on the guy ahead of him [Henshaw] isn't the stuff of which champions are made. I think Reider could – and should – be pushed to do more. His defense has definitely improved, but we need a wider contribution from him ... more positional utility, more authority as a second playmaker, better kicking game from hand and a place-kicking option.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby mildlyinterested » August 23rd, 2018, 8:53 am

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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby OTT » August 23rd, 2018, 9:22 am

mildlyinterested wrote:Newcastle highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAyo0F0p7Qo&t=15s


Thanks for posting.

Looks like Leinster were practicing defending fast ruck ball over multiple phases, nobody hit a ruck once and even the tackler was releasing faster then he had to, it had to be under instruction. Watching 80 minutes of that would be tough viewing.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby wixfjord » August 23rd, 2018, 11:40 am

.
OTT wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:Newcastle highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAyo0F0p7Qo&t=15s


Thanks for posting.

Looks like Leinster were practicing defending fast ruck ball over multiple phases, nobody hit a ruck once and even the tackler was releasing faster then he had to, it had to be under instruction. Watching 80 minutes of that would be tough viewing.


I noticed that too! Very strange. We seemed content to let them come at us in waves with no ball slowed, which is suicide against a team like Newcastle! Might have something to do with Connors going off early too
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby arsebiscuits1 » August 23rd, 2018, 12:09 pm

wixfjord wrote:.
OTT wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:Newcastle highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAyo0F0p7Qo&t=15s


Thanks for posting.

Looks like Leinster were practicing defending fast ruck ball over multiple phases, nobody hit a ruck once and even the tackler was releasing faster then he had to, it had to be under instruction. Watching 80 minutes of that would be tough viewing.


I noticed that too! Very strange. We seemed content to let them come at us in waves with no ball slowed, which is suicide against a team like Newcastle! Might have something to do with Connors going off early too


Yeah, pack either got dominated or deliberately let them off the hook. Quick ball absolutely murdered us for their tries.

Very good maul defence and close quarter tackling in there though.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby wixfjord » August 23rd, 2018, 1:26 pm

Some pretty shocking defensive reads in there. ROL/Tomane & Keenan got caught badly for two tries.

I hope Tomane's injury was slowing him down because he turned like a lorry for their last try.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby cormac » August 23rd, 2018, 8:37 pm

cormac wrote:
Yeah, I know. I'm saying that the squad for the first game of the season will be based on players who've featured in these two games plus Byrne and McFadden. The rest of the senior squad to be filtered back in before the end of September, depending on injuries.


Looking back at the playing time of the international squad in Australia, I wonder if Andrew Porter might be made available for the opening games. He only featured in the second test and for less than ten minutes.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby Ruckedtobits » August 23rd, 2018, 11:25 pm

cormac wrote:
cormac wrote:
Yeah, I know. I'm saying that the squad for the first game of the season will be based on players who've featured in these two games plus Byrne and McFadden. The rest of the senior squad to be filtered back in before the end of September, depending on injuries.


Looking back at the playing time of the international squad in Australia, I wonder if Andrew Porter might be made available for the opening games. He only featured in the second test and for less than ten minutes.


If we get Porter, we should also get Ross Byrne. Crazy to think that an elongated training tour should rule him out of helping his Club through a serious injury crisis at Season start, thus putting pressure on entire Squad for the Season.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby riocard911 » August 23rd, 2018, 11:58 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
cormac wrote:
cormac wrote:
Yeah, I know. I'm saying that the squad for the first game of the season will be based on players who've featured in these two games plus Byrne and McFadden. The rest of the senior squad to be filtered back in before the end of September, depending on injuries.


Looking back at the playing time of the international squad in Australia, I wonder if Andrew Porter might be made available for the opening games. He only featured in the second test and for less than ten minutes.


If we get Porter, we should also get Ross Byrne. Crazy to think that an elongated training tour should rule him out of helping his Club through a serious injury crisis at Season start, thus putting pressure on entire Squad for the Season.


Absolutely. I'm always one for putting the green jersey first, but seeing as how us taking a hit for the national cause has got us in this situation in the first place, it's the least to expect that Joe and the decision makers in the IRFU give us a dig out in return. We want Ross!!! We want Ross!!!! We want Ross!!! We want Ross!!!
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby leinsterforever » August 24th, 2018, 1:07 am

But it's not just based on gametime down in Oz. Porter and RB would have done all the same training as the guys who saw more action. Plus they want them to be in peak condition in one year's time. Everything will be done with the World Cup in mind, so they'll be on the same return timeframe as the other internationals
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby fourthirtythree » August 24th, 2018, 9:02 am

Yeah, but Ross Byrne was out there to prove a point/put pressure on someone else to leave Leinster rather than actually play.

It was pretty cynical.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby wixfjord » August 24th, 2018, 9:53 am

fourthirtythree wrote:Yeah, but Ross Byrne was out there to prove a point/put pressure on someone else to leave Leinster rather than actually play.

It was pretty cynical.


Or the slightly less cynical way of looking at it- he was the third choice ten because of good performances at the end of last season and there to get experience in camp.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby johng » August 24th, 2018, 11:25 am

I tend to view schmidtfora's attitude as ..... Team Ireland are kings and even a small advantage for Ireland that might hurt a province is fine. It's a pro game no pissing about.

However in cases where there is no benefit/harm to team Ireland the provinces are free to do whatever they like.

Others seem to think that there is a small minded "keep the provinces down just for the sake of it" aspect in there.

I find that laughable in a pro setup. That's a mindset that lives in an amateur era blazer driven world.

I would also think that Connacht and Ulster fans would find the notion that the IRFU are "working against Leinster" so focking laughable that they could actually sh1t themselves.

We are the goose that lays the golden eggs at the moment after all. Why would any sane person want to mess with that.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » August 24th, 2018, 11:29 am

I dunno...didn't Munster sign a backrow a couple of years ago (Doyle?) and the rumour was that he wasn't allowed play because they wanted more more realistic international contenders to play despite there being an injury crisis. Sounds like tinfoil hat stuff but it made no sense that he wasn't playing for Munster.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby wixfjord » August 24th, 2018, 11:33 am

johng wrote:I tend to view schmidtfora's attitude as ..... Team Ireland are kings and even a small advantage for Ireland that might hurt a province is fine. It's a pro game no pissing about.

However in cases where there is no benefit/harm to team Ireland the provinces are free to do whatever they like.

Others seem to think that there is a small minded "keep the provinces down just for the sake of it" aspect in there.

I find that laughable in a pro setup. That's a mindset that lives in an amateur era blazer driven world.

I would also think that Connacht and Ulster fans would find the notion that the IRFU are "working against Leinster" so focking laughable that they could actually sh1t themselves.

We are the goose that lays the golden eggs at the moment after all. Why would any sane person want to mess with that.


Bang on, I always think there's a bang of 'what have the Romans done for us' off some of the IRFU bashing that goes on. As Leinster fans we'd do well to remember that the national side will always, and should come first.

(Although the funniest example of this came from Ulster, where some were calling for separation of the province from the IRFU. Best of luck with that one lads.)
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby BlueBlue » August 24th, 2018, 12:04 pm

And yet there is the expression …….. Don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

I think the expression is based on the fear of common human traits coming into play with unintentional negative results, such as thinking something will last forever, taking things for granted and not remembering what it was actually like before the good times.

I think Joe Schmidt is what he is, a ruthless competitor who will do MOST things to win. Its why he's successful, its why although sometimes as Leinster fans we feel hard done by, but also love Irelands success. Its not thin foil hat stuff, Joe will take what he needs when he needs it, he may even take a bit or a lot just in case.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby molloyjh » August 24th, 2018, 1:04 pm

Ross Byrne will be managed through his pre-season like every other player. When he's in a position to return he will. My understanding of what pre-season is in the pro game is something a lot more complex and scientific to a J5 team. Bringing a guy back too early can do things like increase the risk of injury etc. There's no conspiracy theory here. We've just become victims of our own success (and other provinces failures).
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby Ruckedtobits » August 24th, 2018, 6:07 pm

molloyjh wrote:Ross Byrne will be managed through his pre-season like every other player. When he's in a position to return he will. My understanding of what pre-season is in the pro game is something a lot more complex and scientific to a J5 team. Bringing a guy back too early can do things like increase the risk of injury etc. There's no conspiracy theory here. We've just become victims of our own success (and other provinces failures).


I get that and have some understanding of the complexity of the modern S&C / Nutrition Loading / Pylometrics mix in pre-season programme. But Leinster were able to give IRFU a full two weeks heads-up on Frawleys injury and its impact. An adjustment in pre-season loading on one player, who is possibly 4th in Irish depth chart, is certainly not an impossible ask, or a major disruption to a season-long plan.

Will IRFU season plan be less secure if 19 Leinster players are selected for Irish Autumn Squad coming out of a Province who started badly in Pro14 and didn't recover as they were targeted by every opponent?

Bringing Harry Byrne through to debut for Senior team away to Cardiff may look like tough love, but to me it smacks of unnecessary intransigence.
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Re: Pre-Season 2018/19

Postby riocard911 » August 24th, 2018, 7:26 pm

"Bringing Harry Byrne through to debut for Senior team away to Cardiff may look like tough love, but to me it smacks of unnecessary intransigence."

Well said, Ruckedtobits!!!
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