Academy 2018/2019

[riocard911]

backrower8: "Belvedere are beginning to produce more players, but they still only have one senior player in the ranks and he is in his 30s."

Hold on there a second - the Belvo production line has recently kicked in again - see Hugh O'Sullivan and David Hawkshaw.

[mildlyinterested]

backrower8: "Belvedere are beginning to produce more players, but they still only have one senior player in the ranks and he is in his 30s."

Hold on there a second - the Belvo production line has recently kicked in again - see Hugh O'Sullivan and David Hawkshaw.

two academy players given recent cup successes isn't great, but it's an improvement..

hopefully they can push on producing more academy players alongside continued success in the cup.

[riocard911]

backrower8: "Belvedere are beginning to produce more players, but they still only have one senior player in the ranks and he is in his 30s."

Hold on there a second - the Belvo production line has recently kicked in again - see Hugh O'Sullivan and David Hawkshaw.

two academy players given recent cup successes isn't great, but it's an improvement..

hopefully they can push on producing more academy players alongside continued success in the cup.

Éist! Éist!!!

[limecat]

Potential St. Michaels SCT team:

1. Jack Boyle(Leinster schools)
2. Lee Barron(Ireland & Leinster schools)
3. Fionn Finlay(Leinster u19) - ireland schools last season
4. Luke Dunne
5. Jonathan Fish(Leinster schools)
6. Jack Guinane(Leinster schools)
7. Mark Hernan
8. Will Hickey(Ireland & Leinster schools)
9. Rob Gilsenan(Leinster schools)
10. Niall Carroll(Leinster schools)
11. Mark O'Brien(Leinster u19) - Ireland u18 7's
12. Simon O'Kelly(Ireland & Leinster schools)
13. Chris Cosgrave(Ireland & Leinster schools) - Ireland schools last season
14. Andrew Smith(Leinster u19) - Ireland u18 7's last season & Ireland schools
15. Ed Kelly(Leinster schools)

Is Luke Dunne related to Jack Dunne?

[mildlyinterested]

Potential St. Michaels SCT team:

1. Jack Boyle(Leinster schools)
2. Lee Barron(Ireland & Leinster schools)
3. Fionn Finlay(Leinster u19) - ireland schools last season
4. Luke Dunne
5. Jonathan Fish(Leinster schools)
6. Jack Guinane(Leinster schools)
7. Mark Hernan
8. Will Hickey(Ireland & Leinster schools)
9. Rob Gilsenan(Leinster schools)
10. Niall Carroll(Leinster schools)
11. Mark O'Brien(Leinster u19) - Ireland u18 7's
12. Simon O'Kelly(Ireland & Leinster schools)
13. Chris Cosgrave(Ireland & Leinster schools) - Ireland schools last season
14. Andrew Smith(Leinster u19) - Ireland u18 7's last season & Ireland schools
15. Ed Kelly(Leinster schools)

Is Luke Dunne related to Jack Dunne?

certainly tall enough to be but not sure.

Ed Kelly is jack Kelly's younger brother.

[paddyor]

I am talking about risk management and, outside of a professional environement, that comes with "ifs", "mights" and "maybes".

The Leinster model of success is more dependent on schools (over which they have no direct control) than probably any other pro-rugby team. Further again, they are overly dependent on just 3 schools to consistently produce multiple pro players.

They need to manage that risk by focussing on three things:

(1) Firstly, though much is being done they must go much, much further in terms of making safety the number one priority across the sport in the province. It needs to be a key driver in the culture of rugby at all levels. This will help with the parents.

(2) Secondly, widen the number of schools and clubs that consistently produce pro players. Michael's, Clongowes & Rock are provider of over half and Michael's currently produce 1 in 4. Belvedere are beginning to produce more players, but they still only have one senior player in the ranks and he is in his 30s. There could be a harvest from Terenure (currently zero senior players and very few in the academy, if any?). Mary's (one third the size of Rock & Belvo) have produced more Lions players than any other school - currently they have 2 players aged 33 & 29. If those schools are added to the other 3 that are performing then we are reducing the risk.

Given the health of their rugby programmes, schools like Gonzaga (currently 3 pro players but one for Leinster), Newbridge (1 player), Gerard's (1 player), Castlenock (1 Leinster player) should all be targeted to consistently producing multiple pro players - if they aren't already. If they did the we would be up to 10 schools. I am not knowledgeable enough on the club scene to say what provincial clubs might have potential to be part of that.

How you do so, I don't know but perhaps grants towards 4G pitches and stronger coaching alliances are part of it.

The potential for schools to scale down their rugby programmes is considerable. Terenure, Belvedere and Mary's have done so in the recent past. Some of these are said to be scaling back up again - Belvedere obviously switched back to investing in rugby around the time, 15 years ago, when Terenure reduced their rugby focus. Other rugby schools have long ago decided to opt out of being seriously competitive for a range or reasons are CBC Monkstown, Pres Bray, Wesley, De La Salle, Kings Hospital, High School. That said the likes of Gerard's, Gonzaga and St Fintans have all invested and become stronger.

Safety is the main issue concerning parentsand school boards, but the time it takes out of the leaving cert cycle is another thing. Last week my son had to be in school at 8:30 on a Saturday for video analysis before a 10:30 match kick-off...and this is the SCT Seconds team in a non-superpower Dublin school. That is in addition to the twice-weekly 7am gym sessions to go with the regular practive and game time. I know that the SCT squad in Michael's perform very highly and have seen some pupils get higher scores than would have been expected because the coaches impress upon them that SCT rugby cannot be an excuse for Leaving Cert results and the pupils actually get used to performig to very high standards both academically as well as in rugby terms. Maybe other schools can foster a co-ordinated work-hard play harddynamic because it seems to be working for Michael's.

In addition to safety and time, there are also internal battles in terms of resources and many schools' belief that they must ensure a balanced curriculum where everyone's pastime is equally regarded and appropriately resourced.

All-in-all schools have a balancing act to perform and their is no guarantee that strong feeder schools won't dilute their rugby focus owing to negative events or just a change in leadership.

(3) Finally, Leinster Rugby should actively protect the egg-laying hens they have already. If they aren't already, Leinster Rugby should make sure there are regular one-to-ones between them and senior management (not just the DoRs) at the key feeder schools to make sure any issues are nipped in the bud early. This is easier said than done.


The sky is not falling on our heads, but we have a number of significant fault lines in our deservedly much-vaunted model that need to be actively (risk) managed.

On the safety issue, I agree but there is only so much they can do before they arrive at the conclusion the game as is, is basically too dangerous. At that point you're looking to the IRFU rather than the branch.


Systemic risk is risk you have no direct control over. I think Leinster throwing money at the wealthiest schools in the country(who are already in receipt of a capitation grant) is folly because ultimately they'd have no control over the schools and how they scale up/dfown their rugby program. It'd be a PR disaster with clubs too IMO. Pretty sure there's no connection between 4G pitches and professional advancement either.

There is literally nothing you can do about this.

In addition to safety and time, there are also internal battles in terms of resources and many schools' belief that they must ensure a balanced curriculum where everyone's pastime is equally regarded and appropriately resourced.

Nothing. Well unless you instigate coups of the school boards but then how do you marshall your Byzantine generals?This is what I mean when I say a loss aversion strategy leads to irrational decisions. Like you've made some really strong arguments why they should be cautious about investing too much in the schools.

[mildlyinterested]

Interesting to see Liam Turner named as a starter on the wing for DUFC this weekend, Michael Silvester at fullback, Dan Sheehan at hooker.

Harry Byrne starting at 10 for Lansdowne also.

[mildlyinterested]

Saw Scott Penny was listed at 1.82cm = 5'11 and 100kg.

I wonder if his size will limit him.. hopefully not.

[ChrisUppy]

Identical stats to Michael Hooper already at only 19.

In an era where players appear to be shedding a few kg for mobility, the game seems to be moving in a direction that would suit him. Certainly don't believe size alone will stop him and he has plenty of time to find his fighting weight

[mildlyinterested]

Identical stats to Michael Hooper already at only 19.

In an era where players appear to be shedding a few kg for mobility, the game seems to be moving in a direction that would suit him. Certainly don't believe size alone will stop him and he has plenty of time to find his fighting weight

Yeah maybe, I wonder if they have him practicing his lineout throwing.

[backrower8]

On the safety issue, I agree but there is only so much they can do before they arrive at the conclusion the game as is, is basically too dangerous. At that point you're looking to the IRFU rather than the branch.

Systemic risk is risk you have no direct control over. I think Leinster throwing money at the wealthiest schools in the country(who are already in receipt of a capitation grant) is folly because ultimately they'd have no control over the schools and how they scale up/dfown their rugby program. It'd be a PR disaster with clubs too IMO. Pretty sure there's no connection between 4G pitches and professional advancement either.

There is literally nothing you can do about this.

In addition to safety and time, there are also internal battles in terms of resources and many schools' belief that they must ensure a balanced curriculum where everyone's pastime is equally regarded and appropriately resourced.

Nothing. Well unless you instigate coups of the school boards but then how do you marshall your Byzantine generals?This is what I mean when I say a loss aversion strategy leads to irrational decisions. Like you've made some really strong arguments why they should be cautious about investing too much in the schools.

They HAVE to continue to invest and harvest from rugby schools as their main provider of talent by far. But they need to be less dependent on the top 3 schools. It doesn't mean that they don't invest elsewhere as well...but if a club or school has the propensity to deliver 2 or more academy players a year, then you find out how best to support them and make no apologies for doings so while telling others how they can qualify for similar treatment.

In my opinion there is much more upside to making safety #1 than downside. Packaging it as a preventative measure is innately positive anyway.

4G pitches more than likely increase participation rates and certainly increase attacking rugby and skill levels generally.

My point about how schools boards are required to provide more than just rugby and to have some proportionality in how school resources are dispersed was made to highlight the fact there are tensions within schools about how much rugby sucks up a school's energy and that we cannot take them for granted - they can be steered in a different direction, e.g. Terenure in the last 15 years. Who predicted that?

[backrower8]

Potential St. Michaels SCT team:

1. Jack Boyle(Leinster schools)
2. Lee Barron(Ireland & Leinster schools)
3. Fionn Finlay(Leinster u19) - ireland schools last season
4. Luke Dunne
5. Jonathan Fish(Leinster schools)
6. Jack Guinane(Leinster schools)
7. Mark Hernan
8. Will Hickey(Ireland & Leinster schools)
9. Rob Gilsenan(Leinster schools)
10. Niall Carroll(Leinster schools)
11. Mark O'Brien(Leinster u19) - Ireland u18 7's
12. Simon O'Kelly(Ireland & Leinster schools)
13. Chris Cosgrave(Ireland & Leinster schools) - Ireland schools last season as a u17
14. Andrew Smith(Leinster u19) - Ireland u18 7's last season & Ireland schools
15. Ed Kelly(Leinster schools)

At least 8 of these are 5th years. 4 fwds & 4 backs (1, 2, 6, 8,10,12, 13 & 15). 5 of whom played in last year's SCT as 4th years.

[paddyor]

They HAVE to continue to invest and harvest from rugby schools as their main provider of talent by far. But they need to be less dependent on the top 3 schools. It doesn't mean that they don't invest elsewhere as well...but if a club or school has the propensity to deliver 2 or more academy players a year, then you find out how best to support them and make no apologies for doings so while telling others how they can qualify for similar treatment.

In my opinion there is much more upside to making safety #1 than downside. Packaging it as a preventative measure is innately positive anyway.

4G pitches more than likely increase participation rates and certainly increase attacking rugby and skill levels generally.

My point about how schools boards are required to provide more than just rugby and to have some proportionality in how school resources are dispersed was made to highlight the fact there are tensions within schools about how much rugby sucks up a school's energy and that we cannot take them for granted - they can be steered in a different direction, e.g. Terenure in the last 15 years. Who predicted that?

You have this wrong. The facilities are there to support athletes not to entice them to take up the sport. Sports of all types are littered with stories of athletes who took up a sport because of their love of it and despite the facilites etc., succeeded because of their competitive nature. State of the art dressing rooms rarely get a shout out from the podium or bios. If you need a 4G pitch to play rugby, you're not a good fit for Leinster.

[backrower8]

You have this wrong. The facilities are there to support athletes not to entice them to take up the sport. Sports of all types are littered with stories of athletes who took up a sport because of their love of it and despite the facilites etc., succeeded because of their competitive nature. State of the art dressing rooms rarely get a shout out from the podium or bios. If you need a 4G pitch to play rugby, you're not a good fit for Leinster.

Seriously?! What a (deliberately?) narrow interpretation of what I said about 4G pitches.

4G pitches are not just about the kids who might play for Leinster. They facilitate higher participation rates and pitch time through the winter and if more are encouraged to keep playing they can help develop competition for places and nurture a supportive culture towards rugby right across a school. 4G also helps people who aren't destined to play for Leinster, to nurture an appreciation/ love of the sport. Some will become supporters, sponsors, coaches, administrators, etc. 4G helps all that.

Any which way you look at it, 4G is considered a very good thing for schools rugby for many reasons, which is why they are going into more and more schools that I am aware of. They are fast becomig a standard requirement and maybe some money to some schools with strong rugby programmes but not enough money to build a pitch will help all boats to rise and yield more academy players too.

I said nothing about dressing rooms but seeing as you bring it up, Leinster have said a huge amount publicly about their journey from Old Belvedere car park to Riverview to UCD campus over the years in order to have the right level of facilities. Mick Dawson was even on the Irish Times Business Podcast this week reference their UCD base as one of two major steps in their off-field development since he joined 15+ years ago.

[riocard911]

Re 4G - do the kids not have injury problems with such pitches similar to those being reported about in the professional sphere? Maybe due to their lesser body weight the impact on the joints is not as severe......

[paddyor]

You have this wrong. The facilities are there to support athletes not to entice them to take up the sport. Sports of all types are littered with stories of athletes who took up a sport because of their love of it and despite the facilites etc., succeeded because of their competitive nature. State of the art dressing rooms rarely get a shout out from the podium or bios. If you need a 4G pitch to play rugby, you're not a good fit for Leinster.

Seriously?! What a (deliberately?) narrow interpretation of what I said about 4G pitches.

4G pitches are not just about the kids who might play for Leinster. They facilitate higher participation rates and pitch time through the winter and if more are encouraged to keep playing they can help develop competition for places and nurture a supportive culture towards rugby right across a school. 4G also helps people who aren't destined to play for Leinster, to nurture an appreciation/ love of the sport. Some will become supporters, sponsors, coaches, administrators, etc. 4G helps all that.

Any which way you look at it, 4G is considered a very good thing for schools rugby for many reasons, which is why they are going into more and more schools that I am aware of. They are fast becomig a standard requirement and maybe some money to some schools with strong rugby programmes but not enough money to build a pitch will help all boats to rise and yield more academy players too.

I said nothing about dressing rooms but seeing as you bring it up, Leinster have said a huge amount publicly about their journey from Old Belvedere car park to Riverview to UCD campus over the years in order to have the right level of facilities. Mick Dawson was even on the Irish Times Business Podcast this week reference their UCD base as one of two major steps in their off-field development since he joined 15+ years ago.

Have you any evidence to support this? In your previous post you said probably. I don't think it's probable at all. The primary benefit of astro turf is that they're hard wearing and lots of games can be played there irrespective of the weather. I don't think you can justify that expense for a school on a cost benefit analysis. 2 rugby teams for how much of the year? Basically unused between April and September.

Also if the schools are building them themselves why should Leinster step in now? Better to just let it happen shirly? Seems a daft investment tbh and maybe a reason schools are scaling down their rugby programs. Blowback like?

It's funny you mention that, because it's what I was think ing of . The UCD training facilites didn't make Leinster.

[neiliog93]

4G pitches are horrible to play on. I've only played on them as an adult but if more pitches had been 4G when I was in school, I would've enjoyed playing significantly less.

[hugonaut]

I'd like to see Tommy O'Brien tried at fullback on his return to fitness. He seems to have become a forgotten man because he featured in a tragic U20s team and missed the recent Celtic Cup following shoulder surgery, but there's so much to like about him as a rugby player: intelligence, competitiveness, technique, leadership, pace, tackling ... he's such a rounded talent as an outside back in athletic and technical terms.

My understanding is that he's studying to be an actuary, which points towards a serious degree of intelligence and dedication, and he was unanimously voted by his team-mates on the U20s to captain the side [according to this article: https://www.the42.ie/tommy-obrien-irela ... 7-Jan2018/ ]. All in all, a blue chip prospect.

He played across the entire three-quarterline for the Irish U20s over three tournaments:
- 7 appearances as No13 [3 in JWC18, 3 in 6N18, 1 in 6N17];
- 3 appearances as No14 [1 in 6N18, 2 in 6N17]
- 2 appearances as No11 [both in JWC18]
- 1 appearance as No12 [6N18]

When you look at Leinster's depth chart though, it seems like we're very close to a position where we have no real need at either centre position. Henshaw and Ringrose have built an outstanding partnership, with Rory O'Loughlin closing in on 50 caps and 20 tries [47 appearances, 17 tries] before Christmas of his third senior season.

Obviously Conor O'Brien isn't the finished article yet, but he's been earmarked from a long time back as a big talent and is an outstanding fit as a No12 - a former Irish U18s outhalf with a great left footed kicking game and prototypical size [191cm and 103kg - exactly the same as Henshaw]. A couple of pieces have fallen into place for him this year: Tomane hasn't done well at No12 and Carberry moving to Munster has meant Reider has been pushed to cover the No10 shirt instead of being seen as an out-and-out No12. Tom Daly has been very unfortunate with injury and has essentially missed his chance: he's only made 2 starts in his Leinster career at 25 years old. It doesn't mean he's a bad player, but professional sport can be unfair.

What does that mean for Tommy O'Brien? Well, it's very, very difficult to progress if there's no room for him to progress into. It's the reason behind Nick McCarthy's move, for example. I don't see where the games are going to come for TOB if he stays in the centres [and this neglects the presence of Jimmy O'Brien and Gavin Mullen as competition for starts]. Henshaw is 25, O'Loughlin is 24, Ringrose is 23 and O'Brien is 22. Even if Tommy is more talented than Locko, the latter has a 50 game headstart on him, and it's a lot of ground to make up. I think Conor O'Brien is a better fit than Tommy as a No12, albeit there's not a huge body of evidence to back that assertion up.

In contrast to the situation at centre, we've stumbled over the last five years in converting underage talent to senior ability at fullback: Dardis [b.1995] spent four years in the Academy and never got a minute in the Pro12, Kelleher [b. 1994] decided to ship out to Connacht, and Conor Nash [b.1998] opted for AFL over rugby.

Jack Kelly hasn't yet lived up to the reputation pinned on him as a result of his schoolboy career, and while he has been reasonably good for the 'A' side over the last couple of months [captaining them to an unbeaten Celtic Cup title, to give him due credit], there's been nothing in particular to get excited about. That doesn't mean that he's not up to it, it's more that if he's not doing eye-catching things in attack, he has to be doing the basic job of a fullback - positioning, catching, kicking, tackling – at a very high level. To be frank, he's not doing that yet; he's not Mr. Reliable. Michael Sylvester is a good broken field runner but looks more attuned to a career in sevens than as a professional fullback.

We've been incredibly well served by three fullbacks over the last twenty years - 172 games from Girv, 185 games from Isa, 202 [and counting] from Rob – and having that level of quality, reliability, intelligence and character in the spine of the team is such a positive. I see those sort of characteristics in O'Brien. While it's a position change, the fact that he has spent a good bit of time on the wing means that he's not wholly unfamiliar with back three roles. He's a player that I want to see involved with Leinster in the long term, and I think that the role would be a good fit for him personally and for the province.

[curates_egg]

backrower8: "Belvedere are beginning to produce more players, but they still only have one senior player in the ranks and he is in his 30s."

Hold on there a second - the Belvo production line has recently kicked in again - see Hugh O'Sullivan and David Hawkshaw.

two academy players given recent cup successes isn't great, but it's an improvement..

hopefully they can push on producing more academy players alongside continued success in the cup.

McKinley and O'Malley would arguably be in the Leinster XXIII now with better luck.

[Ruckedtobits]

I'd like to see Tommy O'Brien tried at fullback on his return to fitness. He seems to have become a forgotten man because he featured in a tragic U20s team and missed the recent Celtic Cup following shoulder surgery, but there's so much to like about him as a rugby player: intelligence, competitiveness, technique, leadership, pace, tackling ... he's such a rounded talent as an outside back in athletic and technical terms.

My understanding is that he's studying to be an actuary, which points towards a serious degree of intelligence and dedication, and he was unanimously voted by his team-mates on the U20s to captain the side [according to this article: https://www.the42.ie/tommy-obrien-irela ... 7-Jan2018/ ]. All in all, a blue chip prospect.

He played across the entire three-quarterline for the Irish U20s over three tournaments:
- 7 appearances as No13 [3 in JWC18, 3 in 6N18, 1 in 6N17];
- 3 appearances as No14 [1 in 6N18, 2 in 6N17]
- 2 appearances as No11 [both in JWC18]
- 1 appearance as No12 [6N18]

When you look at Leinster's depth chart though, it seems like we're very close to a position where we have no real need at either centre position. Henshaw and Ringrose have built an outstanding partnership, with Rory O'Loughlin closing in on 50 caps and 20 tries [47 appearances, 17 tries] before Christmas of his third senior season.

Obviously Conor O'Brien isn't the finished article yet, but he's been earmarked from a long time back as a big talent and is an outstanding fit as a No12 - a former Irish U18s outhalf with a great left footed kicking game and prototypical size [191cm and 103kg - exactly the same as Henshaw]. A couple of pieces have fallen into place for him this year: Tomane hasn't done well at No12 and Carberry moving to Munster has meant Reider has been pushed to cover the No10 shirt instead of being seen as an out-and-out No12. Tom Daly has been very unfortunate with injury and has essentially missed his chance: he's only made 2 starts in his Leinster career at 25 years old. It doesn't mean he's a bad player, but professional sport can be unfair.

What does that mean for Tommy O'Brien? Well, it's very, very difficult to progress if there's no room for him to progress into. It's the reason behind Nick McCarthy's move, for example. I don't see where the games are going to come for TOB if he stays in the centres [and this neglects the presence of Jimmy O'Brien and Gavin Mullen as competition for starts]. Henshaw is 25, O'Loughlin is 24, Ringrose is 23 and O'Brien is 22. Even if Tommy is more talented than Locko, the latter has a 50 game headstart on him, and it's a lot of ground to make up. I think Conor O'Brien is a better fit than Tommy as a No12, albeit there's not a huge body of evidence to back that assertion up.

In contrast to the situation at centre, we've stumbled over the last five years in converting underage talent to senior ability at fullback: Dardis [b.1995] spent four years in the Academy and never got a minute in the Pro12, Kelleher [b. 1994] decided to ship out to Connacht, and Conor Nash [b.1998] opted for AFL over rugby.

Jack Kelly hasn't yet lived up to the reputation pinned on him as a result of his schoolboy career, and while he has been reasonably good for the 'A' side over the last couple of months [captaining them to an unbeaten Celtic Cup title, to give him due credit], there's been nothing in particular to get excited about. That doesn't mean that he's not up to it, it's more that if he's not doing eye-catching things in attack, he has to be doing the basic job of a fullback - positioning, catching, kicking, tackling – at a very high level. To be frank, he's not doing that yet; he's not Mr. Reliable. Michael Sylvester is a good broken field runner but looks more attuned to a career in sevens than as a professional fullback.

We've been incredibly well served by three fullbacks over the last twenty years - 172 games from Girv, 185 games from Isa, 202 [and counting] from Rob – and having that level of quality, reliability, intelligence and character in the spine of the team is such a positive. I see those sort of characteristics in O'Brien. While it's a position change, the fact that he has spent a good bit of time on the wing means that he's not wholly unfamiliar with back three roles. He's a player that I want to see involved with Leinster in the long term, and I think that the role would be a good fit for him personally and for the province.

If this piece had appeared in The42.ie, I'd automatically assume it was by Murray Kinsella, in depth research allied to an innovative view.

Having re-read the piece I'd concur with @hugonaut. TO'B is a highly talented and intelligent rugby player and Leinster should try to optimise his talents. Full-back looks like a position which he has the skills for, particularly his defensive reading and execution.(tackles well on both shoulders).

Go for it.