Academy 2018/2019

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leinsterforever
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by leinsterforever »

backrower8 wrote:The level of homegrown (Leinster) players in our squad of 65 has been held up in another post as an amazing fact unlikely to be repeated anywhere else in the world, and I agree. But are we building on sand?

It is an incredible stat backboned by an even more incredible and unsustainable one...that over 1 in 4 of those 65 players come from one medium sized school. Of the 17 St Michael's players contracted, 10 are senior squad & 7 in the academy. The same 1 in 4 stat is borne out in the team for the Munster game tomorrow, 4 starters, 6 in the 23.

But, much and all as I take pride in my alma mater's achievements, I think it is a systemic risk for Leinster to be sourcing so many from one school. They are outperforming in a way that can't last, producing over 3 times what the other big providers are currently producing (Clongowes (6 - all senior) & Blackrock (6 - 2 senior, 4 academy)). It is a time bomb.

The norm for other providers of multiple players is between 2 to 4 (Andrews, Belvo, Mary's, Gonzaga). Nure is an example of how a change in school priorities can radically alter output. In fact, Girvan Dempsey is the only pro player that I can remember making it from Terenure and I am not aware of any coming through the academy (but may have missed some).

So if Michael's go back to producing 4 for the squad at any one time, where will the other 13 of a similar standard come from?

Yes clubs are providing marquee players too, but the schools will continue to provide the significant majority of the squad. Only last year 35 players came from just 5 schools.

That is a lot of pressure on a narrow base that is outside the control of Leinster and Irish rugby. They do influnce their rugby programmes but they depend on Boards of Management and parents keeping faith with the professional approach and investment rugby demands in these schools. That can't be taken for granted indefinitely.
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mildlyinterested
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by mildlyinterested »

backrower8 wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:
backrower8 wrote:The level of homegrown (Leinster) players in our squad of 65 has been held up in another post as an amazing fact unlikely to be repeated anywhere else in the world, and I agree. But are we building on sand?
Nope.

Also what would have them do differently?
Prepare for the normalisation of output from Michael's by looking to broaden the base. Get more schools and clubs to be regular producers of more than one pro player. That requires a high level of collaboration between Branch and individual schools, whose willingness and investment of resources cannot be counted on since their function is not to fuel pro rugby.

I think Leinster are too dependent on schools generally and 3 schools in particular, two of which are totally outperforming their capabilities (Clongowes 6 pros include 2 sets of brothers).

Rugby is a deep-seated tradition in many schools. The emulation of pro-rugby is fashionable in some of those schools. It may not always be so in those schools. It is not fashionable in the majority.

The governance structures of schools and the Leinster Pro rugby team have some serious fault lines.

Do you think we are building on solid foundations?
Who said they aren't trying to broaden the base?

They pick the players they think are the best options, if michael's stop producing players at the same clip, Leinster will survive.
backrower8
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by backrower8 »

OTT wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
backrower8 wrote:The level of homegrown (Leinster) players in our squad of 65 has been held up in another post as an amazing fact unlikely to be repeated anywhere else in the world, and I agree. But are we building on sand?

It is an incredible stat backboned by an even more incredible and unsustainable one...that over 1 in 4 of those 65 players come from one medium sized school. Of the 17 St Michael's players contracted, 10 are senior squad & 7 in the academy. The same 1 in 4 stat is borne out in the team for the Munster game tomorrow, 4 starters, 6 in the 23.

But, much and all as I take pride in my alma mater's achievements, I think it is a systemic risk for Leinster to be sourcing so many from one school. They are outperforming in a way that can't last, producing over 3 times what the other big providers are currently producing (Clongowes (6 - all senior) & Blackrock (6 - 2 senior, 4 academy)). It is a time bomb.

The norm for other providers of multiple players is between 2 to 4 (Andrews, Belvo, Mary's, Gonzaga). Nure is an example of how a change in school priorities can radically alter output. In fact, Girvan Dempsey is the only pro player that I can remember making it from Terenure and I am not aware of any coming through the academy (but may have missed some).

So if Michael's go back to producing 4 for the squad at any one time, where will the other 13 of a similar standard come from?

Yes clubs are providing marquee players too, but the schools will continue to provide the significant majority of the squad. Only last year 35 players came from just 5 schools.

That is a lot of pressure on a narrow base that is outside the control of Leinster and Irish rugby. They do influnce their rugby programmes but they depend on Boards of Management and parents keeping faith with the professional approach and investment rugby demands in these schools. That can't be taken for granted indefinitely.
Your from Michaels? Jaysus you never said!
:lol:

Terenure have had three pro's in one family, there have been a good few other guys who have had a pro career, what is the criteria? Full Irish honours?

I think Leinster will get more gains from the underage club and youths in the coming years. Other schools are also contributing now more frequently like Andrews, Gonzage and Gerards to name a few. We might not neccessarily ever have the quality we have now James Ryan for example is a once in a generation player but we seem well able to keep the 'conveyor belt' going for the forseeable.
My apologies to the Blaneys. It's been a while. So Nure are a reliable production line and the system will pick up the slack? I hope you are right but still think its a risk to be managed by adding to the number of clubs/schools that regularly produce 2+ players. Gerard's and Gonzaga are both currently at 1 each and as for Terenure?
backrower8
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by backrower8 »

mildlyinterested wrote: Who said they aren't trying to broaden the base?

They pick the players they think are the best options, if michael's stop producing players at the same clip, Leinster will survive.
So there isn't a dangerous bubble in the system then?

Of course they will 'survive'. But I don't think they would be as successful when Michael's normalise to circa 3-4 players.

The over-reliance on a couple of schools suggests it is either not a top priority or they cannot make it happen. I think the latter is the main reason. The number of pro players produced by Belvedere, Terenure, Mary's in recent (5) years has been disappointing but they have other priorities and responsibilities

I hope they are trying to broaden the base but do you accept that they can't actually make that happen in schools? Too much luck and circumstance involved.

It takes a very particular set of circumstances for a school to consistently turn out 3+ pro-players, let alone 6+ or 17, and those circumstances can change.

The governance and ethics of pro rugby does not sit well with schools on which Leinster rugby is built. Other than broadening the base, not a lot can be done about this.
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by mildlyinterested »

backrower8 wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote: Who said they aren't trying to broaden the base?

They pick the players they think are the best options, if michael's stop producing players at the same clip, Leinster will survive.
So there isn't a dangerous bubble in the system then?
No.
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riocard911
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by riocard911 »

backrower8 wrote:

"The governance and ethics of pro rugby does not sit well with schools on which Leinster rugby is built."

I don't understand this sentence. What problem could they have with the "governance and ethics of pro rugby" as practiced by the reigning Pro 14 and ERCC champions?
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by mildlyinterested »

Also Michaels look nowhere near slowing down given the strength of both their JCT and SCT teams.
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hugonaut
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by hugonaut »

backrower8 wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote: Who said they aren't trying to broaden the base?

They pick the players they think are the best options, if michael's stop producing players at the same clip, Leinster will survive.
So there isn't a dangerous bubble in the system then?

Of course they will 'survive'. But I don't think they would be as successful when Michael's normalise to circa 3-4 players.

The over-reliance on a couple of schools suggests it is either not a top priority or they cannot make it happen. I think the latter is the main reason. The number of pro players produced by Belvedere, Terenure, Mary's in recent (5) years has been disappointing but they have other priorities and responsibilities

I hope they are trying to broaden the base but do you accept that they can't actually make that happen in schools? Too much luck and circumstance involved.

It takes a very particular set of circumstances for a school to consistently turn out 3+ pro-players, let alone 6+ or 17, and those circumstances can change.

The governance and ethics of pro rugby does not sit well with schools on which Leinster rugby is built. Other than broadening the base, not a lot can be done about this.
I think it's a reasonable point to start with [and I'm not from Michael's], but I don't necessarily agree with the extrapolation, i.e. "a dangerous bubble" or "the ethics of pro rugby ... not sit[ting] well with schools on which Leinster rugby is built."

What's the danger? That we don't win the European Cup every year? That's not a danger, that's a given. That's why it's worth enjoying the wins. Even great sides falter and fall away: Toulouse, Northern Transvaal, Auckland, Chicago Bulls in basketball, Liverpool in soccer ... until this year! It's the nature of sport.
backrower8
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by backrower8 »

I think failing a la the Bulls, Toulouse, Transvaal is not something to be comfortable with.

I am describing a medium term risk, not one for the next few years, but a significant one nonetheless. We are building on too narrow a base.

Think of the risk in terms of a new Board of Management or a new Principal deciding to dial down rugby in one of the key feeder schools. It could be triggered by an injury event (probably) or a push-back from parents who want school resources to be distributed more evenly instead of rugby sucking up a huge percentage.

College American Football is being hit by parents pulling their kids away from the game for instance.

It's really significant and simple stuff. Pro Rugby and School boards are not aligned. Leinster Pro Rugby needs the schools to survive, the opposite does not apply. If anyone doesn’t get that then don’t bother replying.
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TrapperChamonix
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by TrapperChamonix »

backrower8 wrote:...... If anyone doesn’t get that then don’t bother replying.
What the hell are you talking about? You're on the wrong forum if all you want to hear is everyone agreeing with you. I'm sure you can find an echo chamber with your friends if you don't want to hear counter points.
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CiaranIrl
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by CiaranIrl »

backrower8 wrote:I think failing a la the Bulls, Toulouse, Transvaal is not something to be comfortable with.

I am describing a medium term risk, not one for the next few years, but a significant one nonetheless. We are building on too narrow a base.

Think of the risk in terms of a new Board of Management or a new Principal deciding to dial down rugby in one of the key feeder schools. It could be triggered by an injury event (probably) or a push-back from parents who want school resources to be distributed more evenly instead of rugby sucking up a huge percentage.

College American Football is being hit by parents pulling their kids away from the game for instance.

It's really significant and simple stuff. Pro Rugby and School boards are not aligned. Leinster Pro Rugby needs the schools to survive, the opposite does not apply. If anyone doesn’t get that then don’t bother replying.
I think you're over cooking the point you're making a bit, but I do agree that we need to broaden the base as much as we can. Invest in all the 12 key schools, and invest beyond Dublin even more than before to find the O'Briens and Furlong's.
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Jonny tight lips
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by Jonny tight lips »

backrower8 wrote:I think failing a la the Bulls, Toulouse, Transvaal is not something to be comfortable with.

I am describing a medium term risk, not one for the next few years, but a significant one nonetheless. We are building on too narrow a base.

Think of the risk in terms of a new Board of Management or a new Principal deciding to dial down rugby in one of the key feeder schools. It could be triggered by an injury event (probably) or a push-back from parents who want school resources to be distributed more evenly instead of rugby sucking up a huge percentage.

College American Football is being hit by parents pulling their kids away from the game for instance.

It's really significant and simple stuff. Pro Rugby and School boards are not aligned. Leinster Pro Rugby needs the schools to survive, the opposite does not apply. If anyone doesn’t get that then don’t bother replying.
I ain’t saying nothing
Ruckedtobits
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Having previously suffered last minute defeats to Gonzaga and Roscrea, Terenure SCT got the job done and beat Rock 26-21 this weekend.
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by mildlyinterested »

once again Michael's are favourites for the cup.. at both act and jct.. rock being their biggest competition.

sam dardis starting on the wing for terenure seniors, only 18.
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by mildlyinterested »

Other 20's named in AIL action

U20's named in AIL action:

Harry Noonan(Prop/Old Wesley) - u19
John McKee(Hooker/Old Belvedere)
Declan Adamson(Hooker/Clontarf)
Richie Bergin(Hooker/UCD)
Cormac Foley(Scrumhalf/St. Marys)
Rob Russell(Fullback/DUFC)
Sam Dardis(Wing/Terenure) - u19
Hugo Conway(Wing/St. Marys)
Ruairi Shields(Wing/St. Marys)
Last edited by mildlyinterested on October 8th, 2018, 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
backrower8
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by backrower8 »

mildlyinterested wrote:
backrower8 wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote: Who said they aren't trying to broaden the base?

They pick the players they think are the best options, if michael's stop producing players at the same clip, Leinster will survive.
So there isn't a dangerous bubble in the system then?
No.
"Leinster are unsinkable!" You probably wouldn't recognise an iceberg if you saw one then.

17 or one quarter of your raw materials from one source is an iceberg. So too is 50%+ from three sources, as is the case.
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by mildlyinterested »

mildlyinterested wrote:Other 20's named in AIL action

U20's named in AIL action:

Harry Noonan(Prop/Old Wesley) - u19
John McKee(Hooker/Old Belvedere)
Declan Adamson(Hooker/Clontarf)
Richie Bergin(Hooker/UCD)
Rob Russell(Fullback/DUFC)
Sam Dardis(Wing/Terenure) - u19
Cormac Foley(Scrumhalf) and Ruairi Shields(Back Three) on the bench for St. Marys, Foley scored a try.

Russell for DUFC also scored a try on AIL debut.
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by mildlyinterested »

Academy Update

Prop

Jack Aungier(Year 2/Suttonians RFC/Terenure) - started at 3 for Leinster A
Michael Milne(Year 1/CC Roscrea-Birr RFC/UCD) - started at 1 for Leinster A

Giuseepe Coyne(U20/Blackrock/DUFC) - bench for Leinster A.
Thomas Clarkson(U19/Blackrock/DUFC) - didn't play this weekend.
Harry Noonan(U19/Greystones RFC/Old Wesley) - started at 1 for Old Wesley

Hooker
Ronan Kelleher(Year 2/St. Michaels/Lansdowne) - started at 2 for Leinster A
Dan Sheehan(Year 1/Clongowes/DUFC) - bench for Leinster A.

Declan Adamson(U20/Clontarf/Clontarf) - started at 2 for Clontarf.
Richie Bergin(U20/St. Marys/UCD) - bench for UCD.
John McKee(U19/Campbell/Old Belvo) - started at 2 for Old Belvedere)

Lock
Jack Dunne(Year 1/St. Michaels/DUFC) - named to start for Leinster A, but pulled out late.
Ryan Baird(Year 1/St. Michaels/DUFC) - started at 5 for Leinster A.

Charlie Ryan(U20/Blackrock/UCD) - started at 4 for Leinster A.

Backrow
Oisin Dowling(Year 2/St. Michaels/Lansdowne) - injured.
Scott Penny(Year 1/St. Michaels/UCD) - started at 7 for Leinster A, 2 tries.

Ronan Foley(U21/St. Marys/UCD) - started at 8 for UCD, 1 try.
Ronan Watters(U20/St. Marys/St. Marys) - bench for Leinster A.
Martin Moloney(U20/Athy RFC/Lansdowne) - bench for Leinster A.

Scrumhalf
Hugh O'Sullivan(Year 2/Belvedere/Clontarf) - cover for senior team.
Patrick Patterson(Year 1/Blackrock/UCD) - bench for Leinster A.

Cormac Foley(U20/St. Gerards/St. Marys) - bench for St. Marys, 1 try.

Outhalf
Ciaran Frawley(Year 2/Skerries RFC/UCD) - started at 10 for Leinster A,
Harry Byrne(Year 1/St. Michaels/Lansdowne) - injured.

David Hawkshaw(U20/Belvedere/Clontarf) - bench for Leinster A.

Centre
Conor O'Brien(Year 3/Mullingar RFC/Clontarf) - started at 12 for Leinster A.
Jimmy O'Brien(Year 3/Newbridge/UCD) - started at 13 for Leinster A.
Gavin Mullin(Year 2/Blackrock/UCD) - injured.
Tommy O'Brien(Year 2/Blackrock/UCD) - injured.

Liam Turner(U20/Blackrock/DUFC) - bench for Leinster A.

Back Three
Hugo Keenan(Year 3/Blackrock/UCD) - injured.
Jack Kelly(Year 3/St. Michaels/DUFC) - started at 15 for Leinster A.
Michaels Silvester(Year 1/Clongowes/DUFC) - started at 11 for Leinster A.
Aaron O'Sullivan(Year 1/Exile/UCD) - injured.

Peter Maher(U21/Belvedere/Old Belvedere) - injured.
Rob Russell(U20/St. Michaels/DUFC) - started at 15 for DUFC, 1 try.
Ruairi Shields(U20/St. Marys/St. Marys) - bench for St. Marys.
Hugo Conway(U20/St. Marys/St. Marys) - bench for St. Marys.
Sam Dardis(U19/Terenure/Terenure) - started at 11 for Terenure.
mildlyinterested
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by mildlyinterested »

Re-fixed Shane Horgan Cup Round 1 Fixture Monday 15th Oct in mullingar rfc

U16s: @Midlands_Rugby v @NELBIRFU KO 6.45pm

U18s: @Midlands_Rugby v @NELBIRFU KO 8pm
mildlyinterested
Leo Cullen
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Re: Academy 2018/2019

Post by mildlyinterested »

Leinster u19 second row Brian Deeny played with the Ireland 7's side last weekend in Chester, where they took part in a 7's tournament..
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