Leinster & a "converyor belt of nines"

[mildlyinterested]

Good old Cummiskey in the times had an article on leinster's conveyor belt of 9's today: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3656257

Which was an odd article, but a good kicking off place for a separate discussion on scrumhalves within the province.

Like the hugely productive prop project initiated a few seasons back, Leinster recently suggested a similar programme to develop specialist scrumhalves. In response former Ireland nine and women’s head coach Tom Tierney was offered by the IRFU. Leinster demurred.

Senior
Jamie Gibson Park(26/New Zealand) - 56 Leinster caps - 24 starts
Luke McGrath(25/St. Michaels/UCD) - 100 Leinster caps - 58 starts
Nick McCarthy(23/St. Michaels/UCD) - 29 Leinster caps - 4 starts

Academy
Hugh O'Sullivan(20/Year 2/Belvedere/Clontarf) - 1 Leinster cap - 0 starts
Patrick Patterson(20/Year 1/Blackrock/UCD)

Sub-Academy
James Kenny(U21/Gonzaga/Lansdowne)
Cormac Foley(U20/St. Gerards/St. Marys)
Shane Murphy(U19/Skerries RFC/UCD)

Schools & Clubs
Adam McEvoy(U19/St. Marys)
Jack Connolly(U19/Gonzaga)
Ben Murphy(U18/Pres Bray)
Rob Gilsenan(U18/St. Michaels)
Will Reilly(U18/Portlaoise)
Cormac Fenton(U18/Wicklow)

Former Leinster underage scrumhalves at other provinces:
John Cooney(Ulster)
James Hart(Munster)
Dave Shanahan(Ulster)

McCarthy is under serious pressure from O'Sullivan and needs to perform when given opportunities this season, he turns 24 later this season and has not progressed well for a former ireland u20 captain etc.

Foley looks likely a strong contender to be starting Ireland u20 scrumhalf this season and therefore a strong contender for an academy place next season.

Kenny is a highly rated player, which was reflected with him being involved with leinster thsi summer past his under-20 season, but he has been unable to stay healthy since leaving school, a very different scrumhalf to what is usually found in leinster in size and style of play.

At underage level, Ben Murphy, son of ex-Leinster coach Richie, looks the brightest prospect followed by Adam McEvoy.

[suisse]

The story of James Lowe in Ireland has become about scrumhalves. Leinster have them, other provinces have not.

I should have stopped reading there. I went on but eventually gave up. Your info is far better anyway MI.

[mildlyinterested]

The story of James Lowe in Ireland has become about scrumhalves. Leinster have them, other provinces have not.

I should have stopped reading there. I went on but eventually gave up. Your info is far better anyway MI.

He is hyping Patterson quite a lot, which is interesting, as Patterson was pretty lucky to make the academy based on last season IMO.

Patterson has scored a few tries for the A team so far this season.

[Flash Gordon]

We may have a lot of them but are they at the required standard? I think JGP has been our standout 9 this year, he's been superb. I think McGrath is a good provincial player but he is not a world class scrum half and a long way behind Murray. We started a lot of a very good scrum half projects over the years and never really done it if I'm honest.

[mildlyinterested]

We may have a lot of them but are they at the required standard? I think JGP has been our standout 9 this year, he's been superb. I think McGrath is a good provincial player but he is not a world class scrum half and a long way behind Murray. We started a lot of a very good scrum half projects over the years and never really done it if I'm honest.

What is the required standard? McGrath was our 1st choice 9 for the double winning campaign, I think he is clearly of the "required standard" even if he will never be world class.

JGP is also of the required standard.

McCarthy, HOS, Patterson.... TBD

[artaneboy]

We may have a lot of them but are they at the required standard? I think JGP has been our standout 9 this year, he's been superb. I think McGrath is a good provincial player but he is not a world class scrum half and a long way behind Murray. We started a lot of a very good scrum half projects over the years and never really done it if I'm honest.

What is the required standard? McGrath was our 1st choice 9 for the double winning campaign, I think he is clearly of the "required standard" even if he will never be world class.

JGP is also of the required standard.

McCarthy, HOS, Patterson.... TBD

The reality is that Jamie and Luke were neck and neck all of last season. The knock-on effects of the Kolpak '2 from 3' conundrum meant that the native boy got more of the nods. This year, JGP has definitely improved- while McGrath has had a slower less eye-catching start. But as you say, we have at least two of the "required standard" but the rest have yet to prove their capacity to perform consistently at this level.

[Flash Gordon]

We may have a lot of them but are they at the required standard? I think JGP has been our standout 9 this year, he's been superb. I think McGrath is a good provincial player but he is not a world class scrum half and a long way behind Murray. We started a lot of a very good scrum half projects over the years and never really done it if I'm honest.

What is the required standard? McGrath was our 1st choice 9 for the double winning campaign, I think he is clearly of the "required standard" even if he will never be world class.

JGP is also of the required standard.

McCarthy, HOS, Patterson.... TBD

The reality is that Jamie and Luke were neck and neck all of last season. The knock-on effects of the Kolpak '2 from 3' conundrum meant that the native boy got more of the nods. This year, JGP has definitely improved- while McGrath has had a slower less eye-catching start. But as you say, we have at least two of the "required standard" but the rest have yet to prove their capacity to perform consistently at this level.

We are the best supported and most successful club in Europe so the required standard for me is international class. Joe doesn't pick McGrath. In Joe's mind, he's behind Murray who's world class, Marmion who is pretty average in my opinion and possibly behind Cooney who's game has come on leaps and bounds. I think he's too slow off the base personally and needs to inject more pace into his game. JGP has done that this year and it makes us very hard to defend against given the game plan we're using.

[wixfjord]

Just because a guy isn't starting on an international team doesn't mean he's not international class. Murray is one of the two best 9s in the world. McGrath is part of a pack of three behind that depending on form and fitness rotates. He's certainly international class, he's more than good enough for top of Euro standard and he's certainly good enough to be our #9.

Both he and JGP have their pros and cons, but they've both been a key part of our most successful season.

[blockhead]

When comparing our two to Marmion and Cooney it must be remembered that JCB and Luke play behind dominant packs for practically every game in blue. I wonder how they would do right now up in Ulster for example.

[locho]

We are the best supported and most successful club in Europe so the required standard for me is international class. Joe doesn't pick McGrath. In Joe's mind, he's behind Murray who's world class, Marmion who is pretty average in my opinion and possibly behind Cooney who's game has come on leaps and bounds. I think he's too slow off the base personally and needs to inject more pace into his game. JGP has done that this year and it makes us very hard to defend against given the game plan we're using.

Luke McGrath has a number of international caps therefore is international class, he may be 2nd/3rd choice but as others have pointed out that's behind arguably the no.1 SH in the world. Remember we did quite well with Eoin Reddan/Isaac Boss for a 3-4 year period 2010-2013 and neither of them were regular 1st choice starters for Ireland. So i agree with Mildly here both JGP and Luke are of the required standard for Leinster.

[paddyor]

I much prefer our options at 9 than any of the other provinces foreign player rule or no. Murray is clearly head and shoulders above the rest but the back-ups just aren't their....until they sign Mathewson for the year.

[neiliog93]

We are the best supported and most successful club in Europe so the required standard for me is international class. Joe doesn't pick McGrath. In Joe's mind, he's behind Murray who's world class, Marmion who is pretty average in my opinion and possibly behind Cooney who's game has come on leaps and bounds. I think he's too slow off the base personally and needs to inject more pace into his game. JGP has done that this year and it makes us very hard to defend against given the game plan we're using.

Luke McGrath has a number of international caps therefore is international class, he may be 2nd/3rd choice but as others have pointed out that's behind arguably the no.1 SH in the world. Remember we did quite well with Eoin Reddan/Isaac Boss for a 3-4 year period 2010-2013 and neither of them were regular 1st choice starters for Ireland. So i agree with Mildly here both JGP and Luke are of the required standard for Leinster.

Mike Prendergast and Guy Easterby had quite a few caps, never made them international class. I also agree that JGP has probably been our best 9 this season, poor showing against Munster aside.

[OTT]

I think Guy Easterby was a good international player. Don’t think Prendergast ever got within a whiff of a cap though??

[mildlyinterested]

leinster won't get a "international class" actions of unless they develop one..

is that Luke or JGP? maybe.. but given Murray neither are likely to get much chance at proving it any time soon.

[desperado]

Just because a guy isn't starting on an international team doesn't mean he's not international class. Murray is one of the two best 9s in the world. McGrath is part of a pack of three behind that depending on form and fitness rotates. He's certainly international class, he's more than good enough for top of Euro standard and he's certainly good enough to be our #9.

Both he and JGP have their pros and cons, but they've both been a key part of our most successful season.

I think that's a good summary and I'd agree. I don't get this narrative that JGP is suddenly well ahead of Luke. He nearly had a mare last Sat. Did he not knock on or drop his first 3 possessions? LMCG was key to our end of season success last year. Remember the concern around his injury (was it knee?). I think a reason he was left out of the Oz trip was that he finished the season playing on an injury.

[artaneboy]

Just because a guy isn't starting on an international team doesn't mean he's not international class. Murray is one of the two best 9s in the world. McGrath is part of a pack of three behind that depending on form and fitness rotates. He's certainly international class, he's more than good enough for top of Euro standard and he's certainly good enough to be our #9.

Both he and JGP have their pros and cons, but they've both been a key part of our most successful season.

I think that's a good summary and I'd agree. I don't get this narrative that JGP is suddenly well ahead of Luke. He nearly had a mare last Sat. Did he not knock on or drop his first 3 possessions? LMCG was key to our end of season success last year. Remember the concern around his injury (was it knee?). I think a reason he was left out of the Oz trip was that he finished the season playing on an injury.

Jeez- this zero sum shtick again. Jamie had nothing like a mare last Saturday. The most eye-catching “mistake” was when early on he dealt well with a wickedly bouncing ball. Otherwise he gave huge speed and accuracy from the base as is normal, was a real threat on his own snipping and kicked really well too.

Luke was okay- one great tackle on Carbery- but couple of ropey box kicks as well and the service is still a bit too slow. Nothing terrible. Just not in the same form as Jamie at the moment.

I would pick JGP for Friday- but if the weather is bad, I could see a horses for courses selection too- and that may suit McGrath.


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[Degz]

The two positions in which Leinster are deficient are hooker and scrum-half. Nowhere else.

Luke hasn't ever really sorted his passing issue, it's just not snappy enough and his long pass accuracy is poor, regularly stunting moves by causing the receiver to readjust. JGP on the other hand has serious issues with his box kicking, which is probably understandable as it is such an important part of the NH game as opposed to where he learned his rugby. Both are fairly inconsistent also.

At this moment in time I'd probably pick Park, but with the weather and a potential game plan looking to keep Wasps honest for 60 minutes, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Luke start.

[TrapperChamonix]

The two positions in which Leinster are deficient are hooker and scrum-half. Nowhere else.

Luke hasn't ever really sorted his passing issue, it's just not snappy enough and his long pass accuracy is poor, regularly stunting moves by causing the receiver to readjust. JGP on the other hand has serious issues with his box kicking, which is probably understandable as it is such an important part of the NH game as opposed to where he learned his rugby. Both are fairly inconsistent also.

At this moment in time I'd probably pick Park, but with the weather and a potential game plan looking to keep Wasps honest for 60 minutes, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Luke start.

Do you not think in the last 12 months both SH have significantly improved the deficiencies you cite?

[curates_egg]

We are the best supported and most successful club in Europe so the required standard for me is international class. Joe doesn't pick McGrath. In Joe's mind, he's behind Murray who's world class, Marmion who is pretty average in my opinion and possibly behind Cooney who's game has come on leaps and bounds. I think he's too slow off the base personally and needs to inject more pace into his game. JGP has done that this year and it makes us very hard to defend against given the game plan we're using.

I think Cooney always had what it took. He got screwed over by MOC, but who didn't? The move to Connacht was a mistake. For me, it was a matter of time before he made a 'breakthrough'. I've a feeling Schmidt doesn't like him though.
I totally agree on Marmion; have never understood the hype. He's done very well on the wing for Ireland, mind

[curates_egg]

Remember we did quite well with Eoin Reddan/Isaac Boss for a 3-4 year period 2010-2013 and neither of them were regular 1st choice starters for Ireland.

Ah here: the only reason they weren't starting for Ireland for much of that period was Deccie. Reddan and Boss were both playing better than Murray until 2012/13 IMO.