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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » January 17th, 2019, 10:47 am

That doesn't answer my question though. What would he bring to the table? It's like you're saying that his main attribute will be that he'll be slim, but how does that translate into a positive impact on the pitch? If he slims down then that will potentially just negate his carrying at 12 which is probably the main thing we signed him for.

I'm not saying that we should give up on him, but what I am saying is that he needs to improve and that you can't just have a vague hope that he can improve and expect it to happen. There has to be an actual plan of how to use him and then a plan to get him right for that. For example, step one might be that you get him to stick with one position, and you might have seen that he has a good understanding with someone and get him to play with them.
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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby artaneboy » January 17th, 2019, 1:03 pm

ronk wrote:Based on other players who have taken time to bed in. There were some risk factors with Tomane so we knew he was a risky signing. Montpellier paid to get him off their books and he was heavier than his international days.

Leinster are a hard working team with a premium on agility. We always expected that he would need to slim down a bit within our systems.

He had some good moments for us but looked a bit off the pace in phase play. Even injured, he's still working for us and the different priorities we have relative to Montpellier.

When he comes back he might not continue his same form, hence give the guy a chance. What benefit is there to giving up on him?


Agreed. No one is saying that Joe is the second coming- that as we know is Ringrose. But even a cursory reading of his career will tell us that he has demonstrated some very valuable attributes previously.

If it needs to be stated: speed, power, no little skill in running and adequate handling skills. We can do with those/ and there is no reason to say he cannot produce those skills again, if his attitude, conditioning and skills training is right.

I suggest he has demonstrated his attitude by initially looking to come here- and now by responding well to recovery. And I think that our S&C and skills training is as good and better than most.

We had a similar (not identical- but close) down-grading of Gibson-Park when he came. He worked out all right. I won’t even get into the whinges against Isa in his first months. It’s a familiar trope when an “outsider” doesn’t blow the doors off.

But it’s all beside the point, our management don’t operate to the mercurial or partial standards of fans. He’s our contracted player, if he’s fit and ready to go- he will play. Simples...


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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby Oldschool » January 17th, 2019, 1:56 pm

artaneboy wrote:
ronk wrote:Based on other players who have taken time to bed in. There were some risk factors with Tomane so we knew he was a risky signing. Montpellier paid to get him off their books and he was heavier than his international days.

Leinster are a hard working team with a premium on agility. We always expected that he would need to slim down a bit within our systems.

He had some good moments for us but looked a bit off the pace in phase play. Even injured, he's still working for us and the different priorities we have relative to Montpellier.

When he comes back he might not continue his same form, hence give the guy a chance. What benefit is there to giving up on him?


Agreed. No one is saying that Joe is the second coming- that as we know is Ringrose. But even a cursory reading of his career will tell us that he has demonstrated some very valuable attributes previously.

If it needs to be stated: speed, power, no little skill in running and adequate handling skills. We can do with those/ and there is no reason to say he cannot produce those skills again, if his attitude, conditioning and skills training is right.

I suggest he has demonstrated his attitude by initially looking to come here- and now by responding well to recovery. And I think that our S&C and skills training is as good and better than most.

We had a similar (not identical- but close) down-grading of Gibson-Park when he came. He worked out all right. I won’t even get into the whinges against Isa in his first months. It’s a familiar trope when an “outsider” doesn’t blow the doors off.

But it’s all beside the point, our management don’t operate to the mercurial or partial standards of fans. He’s our contracted player, if he’s fit and ready to go- he will play. Simples...


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Whinges is maybe a bit harsh.
When a new signing arrives there is a trend.
On the one hand there is the ott reaction to something good that he does.
On the other hand there is the one swallow doesn't make a summer reaction where faults may be slightly overstated.
Over time the coaches get there hands on the newbie and improve his assets and minimise his liabilities.
James Lowe is significantly a better player today than he was two seasons ago. The same can be said JGP whose gone from a JPeG to a JCB back to a much improved JGP.
All the fans see this and are duly appreciative.
Joe Schmidt was/is a master at player improvement and Stuart Lancaster is every bit as good in that regard, high praise but we'll deserved.
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Joe Tomane

Postby artaneboy » January 17th, 2019, 3:12 pm

Oldschool wrote:
artaneboy wrote:
ronk wrote:Based on other players who have taken time to bed in. There were some risk factors with Tomane so we knew he was a risky signing. Montpellier paid to get him off their books and he was heavier than his international days.

Leinster are a hard working team with a premium on agility. We always expected that he would need to slim down a bit within our systems.

He had some good moments for us but looked a bit off the pace in phase play. Even injured, he's still working for us and the different priorities we have relative to Montpellier.

When he comes back he might not continue his same form, hence give the guy a chance. What benefit is there to giving up on him?


Agreed. No one is saying that Joe is the second coming- that as we know is Ringrose. But even a cursory reading of his career will tell us that he has demonstrated some very valuable attributes previously.

If it needs to be stated: speed, power, no little skill in running and adequate handling skills. We can do with those/ and there is no reason to say he cannot produce those skills again, if his attitude, conditioning and skills training is right.

I suggest he has demonstrated his attitude by initially looking to come here- and now by responding well to recovery. And I think that our S&C and skills training is as good and better than most.

We had a similar (not identical- but close) down-grading of Gibson-Park when he came. He worked out all right. I won’t even get into the whinges against Isa in his first months. It’s a familiar trope when an “outsider” doesn’t blow the doors off.

But it’s all beside the point, our management don’t operate to the mercurial or partial standards of fans. He’s our contracted player, if he’s fit and ready to go- he will play. Simples...


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Whinges is maybe a bit harsh.
When a new signing arrives there is a trend.
On the one hand there is the ott reaction to something good that he does.
On the other hand there is the one swallow doesn't make a summer reaction where faults may be slightly overstated.
Over time the coaches get there hands on the newbie and improve his assets and minimise his liabilities.
James Lowe is significantly a better player today than he was two seasons ago. The same can be said JGP whose gone from a JPeG to a JCB back to a much improved JGP.
All the fans see this and are duly appreciative.
Joe Schmidt was/is a master at player improvement and Stuart Lancaster is every bit as good in that regard, high praise but we'll deserved.


“Whinging” was reserved for Isa’s early days- not every complaint.

While much of what we discuss or argue here is superfluous- that’s the pleasure really; opinions/ hopes that we are not going to optimise our playing assets fully seems particularly... eh- not based on reality?


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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby ronk » January 17th, 2019, 3:16 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:That doesn't answer my question though. What would he bring to the table? It's like you're saying that his main attribute will be that he'll be slim, but how does that translate into a positive impact on the pitch? If he slims down then that will potentially just negate his carrying at 12 which is probably the main thing we signed him for.

I'm not saying that we should give up on him, but what I am saying is that he needs to improve and that you can't just have a vague hope that he can improve and expect it to happen. There has to be an actual plan of how to use him and then a plan to get him right for that. For example, step one might be that you get him to stick with one position, and you might have seen that he has a good understanding with someone and get him to play with them.


Why would it negate his carrying? Leinster doesnt have much experience with players like him in the pro era. Horgan was more rangey, Tuquiri was done already. We're used to wingers who are steppers or jumpers. Express train islanders are not common in our setup.

Tomane was always likely to take a bit of time within the system. We'll know soon if he's been able to adjust. He can't show improvement until after he gets back so you and others are absolutely writing him off.

We're not used to the way he plays at his best, he's not used to the way we play. He also (and obviously) needed to work on his conditioning for how we would plan to use him. Comparable signings have usually taken time to adjust. He was barely playing for us before he got hurt and he had some good moments and a few off days.

I'll be glad to have him back.
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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby Oldschool » January 17th, 2019, 5:45 pm

artaneboy wrote:
“Whinging” was reserved for Isa’s early days- not every complaint.

While much of what we discuss or argue here is superfluous- that’s the pleasure really; opinions/ hopes that we are not going to optimise our playing assets fully seems particularly... eh- not based on reality?


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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby artaneboy » January 17th, 2019, 5:57 pm

Oldschool wrote:
artaneboy wrote:
“Whinging” was reserved for Isa’s early days- not every complaint.

While much of what we discuss or argue here is superfluous- that’s the pleasure really; opinions/ hopes that we are not going to optimise our playing assets fully seems particularly... eh- not based on reality?


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Not based on reality, well yes if you have in mind.
Exhibit A - MOC


Okay- touche! :evil:
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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » January 17th, 2019, 7:07 pm

ronk wrote:Why would it negate his carrying? Leinster doesnt have much experience with players like him in the pro era. Horgan was more rangey, Tuquiri was done already. We're used to wingers who are steppers or jumpers. Express train islanders are not common in our setup.

Tomane was always likely to take a bit of time within the system. We'll know soon if he's been able to adjust. He can't show improvement until after he gets back so you and others are absolutely writing him off.

We're not used to the way he plays at his best, he's not used to the way we play. He also (and obviously) needed to work on his conditioning for how we would plan to use him. Comparable signings have usually taken time to adjust. He was barely playing for us before he got hurt and he had some good moments and a few off days.

I'll be glad to have him back.


Not really sure what our history has to do with it.

I'm asking for what he offers on the pitch and you haven't been able to give one single example yet are confident he'll come good.

And no I'm not writing him off and have actually given an example of what he could do to carve out a role for himself. I thought he was useful in that he covered a few positions, but the emergence/re-emergence of others has negated that somewhat, and given that he hasn't performed in any position yet I think our expectations of what he can provide/the role he has should change.
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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby curates_egg » January 17th, 2019, 9:02 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I'm asking for what he offers on the pitch.


He's an excellent carrier, always sucks in defenders. I don't think we have any other player who does that quite as well.
He is strong in contact in attack and defence. Good on the deck.
I seem to remember him being one of their only players to show up against us, so he is clearly also motivated.
He can play everywhere from 11-14, and has even placed kicked.
Here is his promo clip from last season https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ekz5LwQW_Y - in case you really are interested.

Now you could argue that he is the wrong fit for our backline - he'd probably fit in very well in the backrow.
Like the glass half full bunch on this thread, I think he hasn't had a whole lot of time to adapt to totally different defensive and attacking systems, and he could well come good.
I don't know when he is due back, but he would be very useful to have fit in February and March.

Edit: I also think he is a better player than Ben Te'o, who is the most similar player we signed (if you have successfully blocked Tuqiri out). He doesn't seem to be big on offloading though...but neither do we at the moment.
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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby hugonaut » January 17th, 2019, 10:02 pm

curates_egg wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I'm asking for what he offers on the pitch.


He's an excellent carrier, always sucks in defenders. I don't think we have any other player who does that quite as well.
He is strong in contact in attack and defence. Good on the deck.
I seem to remember him being one of their only players to show up against us, so he is clearly also motivated.
He can play everywhere from 11-14, and has even placed kicked.
Here is his promo clip from last season https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ekz5LwQW_Y - in case you really are interested.

Now you could argue that he is the wrong fit for our backline - he'd probably fit in very well in the backrow.
Like the glass half full bunch on this thread, I think he hasn't had a whole lot of time to adapt to totally different defensive and attacking systems, and he could well come good.
I don't know when he is due back, but he would be very useful to have fit in February and March.

Edit: I also think he is a better player than Ben Te'o, who is the most similar player we signed (if you have successfully blocked Tuqiri out). He doesn't seem to be big on offloading though...but neither do we at the moment.


I was a fan of bringing Tomane in. He had played well against us for Montpellier in a couple of games [they were in our group in 2016-17 and 2017-18] and looked a real handful in both games in the RDS ... loads of offloads. Didn't look the same player when he arrived here. Lost the ball a lot in contact and way too upright and handsy in defense at all times.

I reckon that some of that was due to coming into a well-organised shop and having loads of stuff thrown at him, but it wasn't a good look. He played in nine of our first ten games [missing Munster] so it wasn't like he only had a couple of outings before getting injured. He just seemed to struggle.

Hopefully he has been able to settle a little bit outside of rugby since his injury and comes back focused and with a point to prove. He has been a good player in the recent past. If we were to let him go, we'd have to pay him anyway ... much better idea to integrate him and have him as a useful squad member, especially given we'll be down players at the start of next season.
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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby wixfjord » January 17th, 2019, 10:05 pm

As a 12, he isn't a patch on Te'o.

I think people forget how effective Te'o was for us, and how much of a freak of an athlete he is.

He was almost unplayable in the Pro14 against the smaller sides at times.

Tomane isn't that at the moment, and it's unlikely he will be, although I do think he'll improve a lot and was showing signs of being a useful player for us.
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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby ronk » January 17th, 2019, 10:15 pm

wixfjord wrote:As a 12, he isn't a patch on Te'o.

I think people forget how effective Te'o was for us, and how much of a freak of an athlete he is.

He was almost unplayable in the Pro14 against the smaller sides at times.

Tomane isn't that at the moment, and it's unlikely he will be, although I do think he'll improve a lot and was showing signs of being a useful player for us.


Te'o was a lot better in his 2nd season too.
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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby curates_egg » January 17th, 2019, 10:27 pm

ronk wrote:
wixfjord wrote:As a 12, he isn't a patch on Te'o.

I think people forget how effective Te'o was for us, and how much of a freak of an athlete he is.

He was almost unplayable in the Pro14 against the smaller sides at times.

Tomane isn't that at the moment, and it's unlikely he will be, although I do think he'll improve a lot and was showing signs of being a useful player for us.


Te'o was a lot better in his 2nd season too.


And after he came back from the injury in his first season....
He looked all over the shop at times in his first season.
I was never fully convinced he understood what was going on around him, but he was a phenomenal athlete. And, I daresay, in better physical shape than since he left us.
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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby Oldschool » January 17th, 2019, 11:10 pm

hugonaut wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I'm asking for what he offers on the pitch.


He's an excellent carrier, always sucks in defenders. I don't think we have any other player who does that quite as well.
He is strong in contact in attack and defence. Good on the deck.
I seem to remember him being one of their only players to show up against us, so he is clearly also motivated.
He can play everywhere from 11-14, and has even placed kicked.
Here is his promo clip from last season https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ekz5LwQW_Y - in case you really are interested.

Now you could argue that he is the wrong fit for our backline - he'd probably fit in very well in the backrow.
Like the glass half full bunch on this thread, I think he hasn't had a whole lot of time to adapt to totally different defensive and attacking systems, and he could well come good.
I don't know when he is due back, but he would be very useful to have fit in February and March.

Edit: I also think he is a better player than Ben Te'o, who is the most similar player we signed (if you have successfully blocked Tuqiri out). He doesn't seem to be big on offloading though...but neither do we at the moment.


I was a fan of bringing Tomane in. He had played well against us for Montpellier in a couple of games [they were in our group in 2016-17 and 2017-18] and looked a real handful in both games in the RDS ... loads of offloads. Didn't look the same player when he arrived here. Lost the ball a lot in contact and way too upright and handsy in defense at all times.

I reckon that some of that was due to coming into a well-organised shop and having loads of stuff thrown at him, but it wasn't a good look. He played in nine of our first ten games [missing Munster] so it wasn't like he only had a couple of outings before getting injured. He just seemed to struggle.

Hopefully he has been able to settle a little bit outside of rugby since his injury and comes back focused and with a point to prove. He has been a good player in the recent past. If we were to let him go, we'd have to pay him anyway ... much better idea to integrate him and have him as a useful squad member, especially given we'll be down players at the start of next season.

Me too and still he has a lot to offer.
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Re: Joe Tomane

Postby Oldschool » January 17th, 2019, 11:13 pm

curates_egg wrote:
ronk wrote:
wixfjord wrote:As a 12, he isn't a patch on Te'o.

I think people forget how effective Te'o was for us, and how much of a freak of an athlete he is.

He was almost unplayable in the Pro14 against the smaller sides at times.

Tomane isn't that at the moment, and it's unlikely he will be, although I do think he'll improve a lot and was showing signs of being a useful player for us.


Te'o was a lot better in his 2nd season too.


And after he came back from the injury in his first season....
He looked all over the shop at times in his first season.
I was never fully convinced he understood what was going on around him, but he was a phenomenal athlete. And, I daresay, in better physical shape than since he left us.

Always thought Te'o was overrated and he hasn't done much since to change my mind tbh.
He's a bit of a one trick pony, once you can match him physically that's it.
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