Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

[curates_egg]

There was a lot of 'Bath are poor' 'I expect us to win'. Below are two referring to us getting a try BP (one from another thread).

Bath are a poor side, aim should be 5 points.

I think a win should be very doable and realistically we should be targeting all 5 points this weekend.

It was the same with Toulouse.
People seem to forget that away fixtures in European rugby are always difficult.
This 'expecting a win' thing really gets on my nerves: Because of where I live, I go to more away games than home ones and I never expect anything.

Bath is a proud club, with good players and good coaches. The pitch and conditions were always going to be poor. We were always going to get sucked into a dogfight. You should never expect to win a dogfight.
Given how lacking in oompf our pack was, you get the impression they may have swallowed the same stuff.

[wixfjord]

There was a lot of 'Bath are poor' 'I expect us to win'. Below are two referring to us getting a try BP (one from another thread).

Bath are a poor side, aim should be 5 points.

I think a win should be very doable and realistically we should be targeting all 5 points this weekend.

It was the same with Toulouse.
People seem to forget that away fixtures in European rugby are always difficult.
This 'expecting a win' thing really gets on my nerves: Because of where I live, I go to more away games than home ones and I never expect anything.

Bath is a proud club, with good players and good coaches. The pitch and conditions were always going to be poor. We were always going to get sucked into a dogfight. You should never expect to win a dogfight.
Given how lacking in oompf our pack was, you get the impression they may have swallowed the same stuff.

So people saying we should be aiming for 5 points? Is that all?!

The rain was a leveller but to listen to some of ye lads you'd think we were lighting our cigars on Wednesday and proclaiming we'd walk away with a 50 pointer!

Bath are a objectively a mid table side who were missing Priestland, Faletau, Burns, Mercer, Joseph, Watson, Obano and others.

Again, I think our performance needs to be put in context a bit. We didn't play well, but got a solid result given the conditions.

[Oldschool]

There was a lot of 'Bath are poor' 'I expect us to win'. Below are two referring to us getting a try BP (one from another thread).

Bath are a poor side, aim should be 5 points.

I think a win should be very doable and realistically we should be targeting all 5 points this weekend.

It was the same with Toulouse.
People seem to forget that away fixtures in European rugby are always difficult.
This 'expecting a win' thing really gets on my nerves: Because of where I live, I go to more away games than home ones and I never expect anything.

Bath is a proud club, with good players and good coaches. The pitch and conditions were always going to be poor. We were always going to get sucked into a dogfight. You should never expect to win a dogfight.
Given how lacking in oompf our pack was, you get the impression they may have swallowed the same stuff.

It was reasonable to expect an away win against Bath based simply on their form this season.
Expecting a BP as well was optimistic especially given the conditions.
Having said that Leinster created enough chances, against Bath, to get a BP which is encouraging.
The Wasps v Toulouse game backs up your point too.
Toulouse got the win but no BP and struggled at times against Wasps, we may well experience similar difficulties when it's our turn.

[TerenureJim]

Honest question when is the last time a team walked away from that Rec pitch with four tries in the bag in the bleak midwinter, it looks like you're playing in tar anytime I see a team rock up there.

[paddyor]

[artaneboy]

There was a lot of 'Bath are poor' 'I expect us to win'. Below are two referring to us getting a try BP (one from another thread).

Bath are a poor side, aim should be 5 points.

I think a win should be very doable and realistically we should be targeting all 5 points this weekend.

It was the same with Toulouse.
People seem to forget that away fixtures in European rugby are always difficult.
This 'expecting a win' thing really gets on my nerves: Because of where I live, I go to more away games than home ones and I never expect anything.

Bath is a proud club, with good players and good coaches. The pitch and conditions were always going to be poor. We were always going to get sucked into a dogfight. You should never expect to win a dogfight.
Given how lacking in oompf our pack was, you get the impression they may have swallowed the same stuff.

So people saying we should be aiming for 5 points? Is that all?!

The rain was a leveller but to listen to some of ye lads you'd think we were lighting our cigars on Wednesday and proclaiming we'd walk away with a 50 pointer!

Bath are a objectively a mid table side who were missing Priestland, Faletau, Burns, Mercer, Joseph, Watson, Obano and others.

Again, I think our performance needs to be put in context a bit. We didn't play well, but got a solid result given the conditions.

“Is that all...”. Ah c’mon. I’m not going to harvest quotes for you, Curates gave you a couple and there are plenty more if you chose to look for them. There were some who definitely claimed we should or would win handily and should/ would get 5 points. It’s rubbish to say that’s not complacency and smacking of arrogance.

And what’s this stuff about what we should be aiming at? We all accept we want to play to the highest standard, but to ignore factors such as the opposition, weather, etc. in judging a specific match and what’s reasonable in context, is a different kettle of fish altogether.

The objective reality was that opposition WAS highly motivated and playing at home, the weather WAS terrible, the pitch IS tight and heavy. Those aren’t excuses they are factors that should have led people to temper their expectations. That is not “all”- the presumption was wrong.

Yesterday was a very good result- I’m not going to indulge in Dunphyesque definitions of “great” versus “good”. But that performance- if not great, was not bad. We didn’t play to our optimum, but still got four points. That’s probably the definition of not bad!


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[wixfjord]

“Is that all...”. Ah c’mon. I’m not going to harvest quotes for you, Curates gave you a couple and there are plenty more if you chose to look for them. There were some who definitely claimed we should or would win handily and should/ would get 5 points. It’s rubbish to say that’s not complacency and smacking of arrogance.

And what’s this stuff about what we should be aiming at? We all accept we want to play to the highest standard, but to ignore factors such as the opposition, weather, etc. in judging a specific match and what’s reasonable in context, is a different kettle of fish altogether.

The objective reality was that opposition WAS highly motivated and playing at home, the weather WAS terrible, the pitch IS tight and heavy. Those aren’t excuses they are factors that should have led people to temper their expectations. That is not “all”- the presumption was wrong.

Yesterday was a very good result- I’m not going to indulge in Dunphyesque definitions of “great” versus “good”. But that performance- if not great, was not bad. We didn’t play to our optimum, but still got four points. That’s probably the definition of not bad!


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He actually offered two quotes from a different thread that said we should be aiming for a bonus point.

For me it's rubbish to say that's 'arrogance'. But each to their own.

I've literally mentioned the weather and the other mitigating factors in every post. You seem to have ignored that.

You're also conflating the performance (which our coach and MOTM have rightly pointed out wasn't good) with the result.

There were some who definitely claimed we should or would win handily and should/ would get 5 points.

Were there? Any examples?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I agree with most of Wixfjord has been saying. I think people are talking up Bath too much and ignoring things that were in our control. The conditions were absolutely awful so that obviously did have a huge impact and I don't think anyone should have expected us to romp home when they were so bad, but they don't apply to everything.

They did impact on kicking, restarts, handling and Bath's ability to rush up in midfield knowing we couldn't pass/run easily, but we didn't help ourselves at times.

- I don't think Leavy at 8 can be blamed on the conditions. They made it harder for him, but it was clearly an error to pick him there. His fumble at the first scrum led to a turnover (Louw didn't actually release Luke but our support play was still poor) and the turnover at the second led to their try.

- At the start of the game we played on the back foot too much. Remember when we got knocked back in midfield and then pulled the ball back to Lowe off the next phase and he got tackled in the 22? Should never have happened. Neither of the Bath wingers are good kickers and it was a tough day to run the ball back, we should have played for territory more often.

- In the first 25 mins or so we set up way too wide off the ruck and were static. That was compounded by Luke picking the wrong option a few times because the ball carrier was where Bath were strongest. We changed things a little bit and were using pop passes more and it worked immediately with Lowe putting a lovely pass up for Johnny to run through and then Ringrose picked and ran through the gap. That was the blueprint on how to play with ball in hand but it took too long to realise it.

- We didn't resource rucks properly when that's probably the most important thing to do on days like that.

- BOD mentioned that Larmour had lads of space on Cokanisiga. The one time we really targeted him was when Noel kicked in behind and he couldn't cope with it, we won a penalty and got over for a try...did we ever get in behind him again?

- I do have sympathy for the restarts because I think the wind made them really tough to take cleanly and we saw that from all the kicks from general play that ended up a couple of metres from the catcher, but we were still a mess. Pods were going backwards or having to run across the pitch, we didn't block the Bath chasers, and nobody hung back in case the ball did bounce. At one stage Ringrose (coming back) and Leavy (coming forward) sandwiched VDF who fell over, and the ball just bounced clear. No Leinster player was behind the ball and Furlong tidied it up brilliantly on the retreat. That just shouldn't happen.

- Lowe is one of our strongest carriers close in but don't think we used him like that once despite our forwards losing the collisions and needing go forward.

I don't think any of those criticisms are unfair and it's not unreasonable to expect better. I can't imagine the players will be ignoring them in the video session because conditions were tough and we got the win. Those criticisms also don't mean that we were terrible, thought we were better in the second half and there was a lot to admire about how we toughed it out. We're the European champions so expectations should be high. If we didn't talk about performances but just commented on if a result was good or bad then there'd be no real point in this place.

[artaneboy]

“Is that all...”. Ah c’mon. I’m not going to harvest quotes for you, Curates gave you a couple and there are plenty more if you chose to look for them. There were some who definitely claimed we should or would win handily and should/ would get 5 points. It’s rubbish to say that’s not complacency and smacking of arrogance.

And what’s this stuff about what we should be aiming at? We all accept we want to play to the highest standard, but to ignore factors such as the opposition, weather, etc. in judging a specific match and what’s reasonable in context, is a different kettle of fish altogether.

The objective reality was that opposition WAS highly motivated and playing at home, the weather WAS terrible, the pitch IS tight and heavy. Those aren’t excuses they are factors that should have led people to temper their expectations. That is not “all”- the presumption was wrong.

Yesterday was a very good result- I’m not going to indulge in Dunphyesque definitions of “great” versus “good”. But that performance- if not great, was not bad. We didn’t play to our optimum, but still got four points. That’s probably the definition of not bad!


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He actually offered two quotes from a different thread that said we should be aiming for a bonus point.

For me it's rubbish to say that's 'arrogance'. But each to their own.

I've literally mentioned the weather and the other mitigating factors in every post. You seem to have ignored that.

You're also conflating the performance (which our coach and MOTM have rightly pointed out wasn't good) with the result.

There were some who definitely claimed we should or would win handily and should/ would get 5 points.

Were there? Any examples?

What are you- a teacher?! Stop giving homework- and do your own quote harvesting, if you actually need more. The point was clearly made already that the comments were not only in this thread but also in others during the week.

I didn’t ignore that you mentioned the weather- although my comments are not particularly focused on you. But that’s sort of the point- you mention the weather, etc. but still think looking for 5 points is reasonable- or even somehow admirable, in being... what- aspirational? Aren’t you all the purists!

And what’s this on quoting the coach on the performance as a source of all wisdom : setting aside that he was practicing the usual post match cliches- since when have we given any credence to what a coach says in the middle of a back-to-back series? He’s sending messages for next week there- not providing an objective critique of the proceedings.


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[artaneboy]

“Is that all...”. Ah c’mon. I’m not going to harvest quotes for you, Curates gave you a couple and there are plenty more if you chose to look for them. There were some who definitely claimed we should or would win handily and should/ would get 5 points. It’s rubbish to say that’s not complacency and smacking of arrogance.

And what’s this stuff about what we should be aiming at? We all accept we want to play to the highest standard, but to ignore factors such as the opposition, weather, etc. in judging a specific match and what’s reasonable in context, is a different kettle of fish altogether.

The objective reality was that opposition WAS highly motivated and playing at home, the weather WAS terrible, the pitch IS tight and heavy. Those aren’t excuses they are factors that should have led people to temper their expectations. That is not “all”- the presumption was wrong.

Yesterday was a very good result- I’m not going to indulge in Dunphyesque definitions of “great” versus “good”. But that performance- if not great, was not bad. We didn’t play to our optimum, but still got four points. That’s probably the definition of not bad!


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He actually offered two quotes from a different thread that said we should be aiming for a bonus point.

For me it's rubbish to say that's 'arrogance'. But each to their own.

I've literally mentioned the weather and the other mitigating factors in every post. You seem to have ignored that.

You're also conflating the performance (which our coach and MOTM have rightly pointed out wasn't good) with the result.

There were some who definitely claimed we should or would win handily and should/ would get 5 points.

Were there? Any examples?

What are you- a teacher?! Stop giving homework- and do your own quote harvesting, if you actually need more. The point was clearly made already that the comments were not only in this thread but also in others during the week.

I didn’t ignore that you mentioned the weather- although my comments are not particularly focused on you. But that’s sort of the point- you mention the weather, etc. but still think looking for 5 points is reasonable- or even somehow admirable, in being... what- aspirational? Aren’t you all the purists!

And what’s this on quoting the coach on the performance as a source of all wisdom : setting aside that he was practicing the usual post match cliches- since when have we given any credence to what a coach says in the middle of a back-to-back series? He’s sending messages for next week there- not providing an objective critique of the proceedings.


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Actually I’m wrong in saying you thought 5 points was reasonable. Your point was rather that we played poorly, even given the circumstances. A fine but definite distinction- I’ll admit that. Apologies.

But the rest of my point stands.


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[wixfjord]

What are you- a teacher?! Stop giving homework- and do your own quote harvesting, if you actually need more. The point was clearly made already that the comments were not only in this thread but also in others during the week.

I didn’t ignore that you mentioned the weather- although my comments are not particularly focused on you. But that’s sort of the point- you mention the weather, etc. but still think looking for 5 points is reasonable- or even somehow admirable, in being... what- aspirational? Aren’t you all the purists!

And what’s this on quoting the coach on the performance as a source of all wisdom : setting aside that he was practicing the usual post match cliches- since when have we given any credence to what a coach says in the middle of a back-to-back series? He’s sending messages for next week there- not providing an objective critique of the proceedings.


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No, I said that I am happy enough with the win given the circumstances, but that our performance was below par overall.

The point was more the complaining from yourself and others about the seeming hordes of posters arrogantly talking about a bonus point that don't seem to exist! If it was so prevalent, I certainly missed it.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[artaneboy]

What are you- a teacher?! Stop giving homework- and do your own quote harvesting, if you actually need more. The point was clearly made already that the comments were not only in this thread but also in others during the week.

I didn’t ignore that you mentioned the weather- although my comments are not particularly focused on you. But that’s sort of the point- you mention the weather, etc. but still think looking for 5 points is reasonable- or even somehow admirable, in being... what- aspirational? Aren’t you all the purists!

And what’s this on quoting the coach on the performance as a source of all wisdom : setting aside that he was practicing the usual post match cliches- since when have we given any credence to what a coach says in the middle of a back-to-back series? He’s sending messages for next week there- not providing an objective critique of the proceedings.


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No, I said that I am happy enough with the win given the circumstances, but that our performance was below par overall.

The point was more the complaining from yourself and others about the seeming hordes of posters arrogantly talking about a bonus point that don't seem to exist! If it was so prevalent, I certainly missed it.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Okay- fair enough. The comments were there- but let’s focus on what we need to do.


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[wixfjord]

What are you- a teacher?! Stop giving homework- and do your own quote harvesting, if you actually need more. The point was clearly made already that the comments were not only in this thread but also in others during the week.

I didn’t ignore that you mentioned the weather- although my comments are not particularly focused on you. But that’s sort of the point- you mention the weather, etc. but still think looking for 5 points is reasonable- or even somehow admirable, in being... what- aspirational? Aren’t you all the purists!

And what’s this on quoting the coach on the performance as a source of all wisdom : setting aside that he was practicing the usual post match cliches- since when have we given any credence to what a coach says in the middle of a back-to-back series? He’s sending messages for next week there- not providing an objective critique of the proceedings.


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No, I said that I am happy enough with the win given the circumstances, but that our performance was below par overall.

The point was more the complaining from yourself and others about the seeming hordes of posters arrogantly talking about a bonus point that don't seem to exist! If it was so prevalent, I certainly missed it.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Okay- fair enough. The comments were there- but let’s focus on what we need to do.


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As I said dude, if they were there they should be easy enough to find wha?

[artaneboy]

No, I said that I am happy enough with the win given the circumstances, but that our performance was below par overall.

The point was more the complaining from yourself and others about the seeming hordes of posters arrogantly talking about a bonus point that don't seem to exist! If it was so prevalent, I certainly missed it.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Okay- fair enough. The comments were there- but let’s focus on what we need to do.


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As I said dude, if they were there they should be easy enough to find wha?

They’re easy but find: less easy to re-post!!
You got two from this thread- and that wasn’t enough. I’m not going to go harvesting (on a phone and with my pathetic technical ability), but I think we all know really, there plenty of evidence of presumption.

More importantly- can we agree that some balance of expectations with context is desirable.


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[riocard911]

artaneboy wrote: "... can we agree that some balance of expectations with context is desirable"?

I'm all for that!!!!

[LeRouxIsPHat]

artaneboy wrote: "... can we agree that some balance of expectations with context is desirable"?

I'm all for that!!!!

But that implies that Wixfjord didn't provide that, which isn't the case.

[Gearzbox2]

If people thought we put in a rusty performance last night, after watching Munster game ours looked like the BaBas v New Zealand 1973 game!!!!

[LeinsterLeader]

If people thought we put in a rusty performance last night, after watching Munster game ours looked like the BaBas v New Zealand 1973 game!!!!

Fair point GB2. In the debate over whether you should rest players before these games or have them playing continuously, I expected Munster to notch a '1-0' for continuous rugby today. But I thought they did look tired at times to day where we definitely looked rusty at times yesterday. I suppose it's all about getting the balance right.

[artaneboy]

artaneboy wrote: "... can we agree that some balance of expectations with context is desirable"?

I'm all for that!!!!

But that implies that Wixfjord didn't provide that, which isn't the case.

No, it doesn’t imply that at all.

It “agrees to disagree” on the point of contention and simply suggests that the statement is an area of more important agreement.


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[Gearzbox2]

If people thought we put in a rusty performance last night, after watching Munster game ours looked like the BaBas v New Zealand 1973 game!!!!

Fair point GB2. In the debate over whether you should rest players before these games or have them playing continuously, I expected Munster to notch a '1-0' for continuous rugby today. But I thought they did look tired at times to day where we definitely looked rusty at times yesterday. I suppose it's all about getting the balance right.

Defo think a few of our players should’ve played last week to get sharp...cronin, JVDF, Furlong, Rhys and Rob maybe could’ve done with 20/25 off the bench to be ready to go yesterday potentially