Wasps getting excuses in early

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Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Inconspicuous » January 14th, 2019, 11:20 am

"Salary cap stops Premiership competing with star-studded Irish teams"

Dai Young peddling the same old s**t about Irish sides resting players, as well as saying the £7 million salary cap isn't enough for Premiership teams to compete in Europe. :roll:

Here: https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/ot ... ng-2423777
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby riocard911 » January 14th, 2019, 12:25 pm

How the mighty have fallen applies also to the incumbent Wasps coach. Loadsamoney backing him up for the last few years with very little to show for it. I remember well when Marty Moore was departing our shores for the Ricoh and talking up the prospect of learning from Dai Young. So much for that......
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 12:27 pm

riocard911 wrote:How the mighty have fallen applies also to the incumbent Wasps coach. Loadsamoney backing him up for the last few years with very little to show for it. I remember well when Marty Moore was departing our shores for the Ricoh and talking up the prospect of learning from Dai Young. So much for that......


I see this snidely mentioned again and again. What am I missing here?
What's the issue in Marty saying part of the reason he wanted to move was to learn from an excellent scrummager?
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby fourthirtythree » January 14th, 2019, 12:28 pm

He didn't?
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 12:31 pm

If you read what Young has said (and not the bits written around it) I think it's all fair enough by the way.

The salary cap is high fair enough, but it is also a more attritional league and more diluted in terms of player base per club.

The IRFU and Leinster branch have done an incredible job, but we do have some advantages over the English clubs (no relegation, player management, joined up system and a large base to pick from in Leinster's case.)
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 12:31 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:He didn't?


He didn't what?
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby fourthirtythree » January 14th, 2019, 12:41 pm

wixfjord wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:He didn't?


He didn't what?

learn from an excellent scrummager
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 12:45 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:He didn't?


He didn't what?

learn from an excellent scrummager


I'm not sure what he 'learned', and I'm certainly not sure who's fault that was but I don't see any issue with him giving that as a reason before he left.

It keeps getting trotted out as a way to either dig at Young or Moore, and I'm not really sure why?
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby locho » January 14th, 2019, 12:50 pm

wixfjord wrote:If you read what Young has said (and not the bits written around it) I think it's all fair enough by the way.

The salary cap is high fair enough, but it is also a more attritional league and more diluted in terms of player base per club.

The IRFU and Leinster branch have done an incredible job, but we do have some advantages over the English clubs (no relegation, player management, joined up system and a large base to pick from in Leinster's case.)


I don't' think anybody would argue that we don't have advantages over them, but the key point is that is the system we chose. They chose a different system in England, (e.g. privately owned de-centralized clubs), they could've had a centralized system but the clubs didn't want it and the issue is that they don't have the commercial viability to sustain a league of 12 clubs with a squad of 25+ internationals. They are effectively crying about taking the wrong decision 15-20 years ago but are trying to blame us because we made the right decision.

I also think the salary cap isn't an issue, they have £7m per club, if you also consider that the internationals get paid from RFU on top of this it's effectively more. If you consider Leinster and looked at our full squads wage bill, and then took away an IRFU contribution of say 30% per international player (a fair % when you consider about 40-50% of their playing time is for Ireland), i would be highly surprised if it came to more than £7m (or €7.85m)
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 12:54 pm

locho wrote:
wixfjord wrote:If you read what Young has said (and not the bits written around it) I think it's all fair enough by the way.

The salary cap is high fair enough, but it is also a more attritional league and more diluted in terms of player base per club.

The IRFU and Leinster branch have done an incredible job, but we do have some advantages over the English clubs (no relegation, player management, joined up system and a large base to pick from in Leinster's case.)


I don't' think anybody would argue that we don't have advantages over them, but the key point is that is the system we chose, they chose a different system in England (e.g. privately owned de-centralized clubs) they could've had a centralized system but the clubs didn't want it and the issue is that they don't have the commercial viability to sustain 12 clubs with a squad of 25+ internationals. They are effectively crying about taking the wrong decision 15-20 years ago but are trying to blame us because we made the right decision.

I also think the salary cap isn't an issue, they have £7m per club, if you also consider that the internationals get paid from RFU on top of this it's effectively more. If you consider Leinster and looked at our full squads wage bill, and then took away an IRFU contribution of say 30% per international player (a fair % when you consider about 40-50% of their playing time is for Ireland), i would be highly surprised if it came to more than £7m (or €7.85m)


I don't think Dai Young is 'blaming' anyone judging on those quotes, what he has said is factual. But yes it was the wrong approach and they're compounding it now with the CVC stuff.

I'm not saying Leinster are anywhere near the salary cap of an English side, in fact the opposite, but this is somewhat balanced out by other factors I think. We do have in built benefits in that our league is far less attritional, we have player management and I think our leaders take a far smarter and longer term approach to player development than theirs, which is partly a result of the first two things I mentioned.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby riocard911 » January 14th, 2019, 12:58 pm

wixfjord wrote:
riocard911 wrote:How the mighty have fallen applies also to the incumbent Wasps coach. Loadsamoney backing him up for the last few years with very little to show for it. I remember well when Marty Moore was departing our shores for the Ricoh and talking up the prospect of learning from Dai Young. So much for that......


I see this snidely mentioned again and again. What am I missing here?
What's the issue in Marty saying part of the reason he wanted to move was to learn from an excellent scrummager?


The impression created by Marty Moore by his own words was, that he was moving on to better and brighter things i.e. leaving a sinking ship and advancing his career under the tutelage of a proven coach at a well-resourced club. I'm merely pointing out that the prospects failed to match up with the reality - in Leinster or at Wasps.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Oldschool » January 14th, 2019, 1:01 pm

riocard911 wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
riocard911 wrote:How the mighty have fallen applies also to the incumbent Wasps coach. Loadsamoney backing him up for the last few years with very little to show for it. I remember well when Marty Moore was departing our shores for the Ricoh and talking up the prospect of learning from Dai Young. So much for that......


I see this snidely mentioned again and again. What am I missing here?
What's the issue in Marty saying part of the reason he wanted to move was to learn from an excellent scrummager?


The impression created by Marty Moore by his own words was, that he was moving on to better and brighter things i.e. leaving a sinking ship and advancing his career under the tutelage of a proven coach at a well-resourced club. I'm merely pointing out that the prospects failed to match up with the reality - in Leinster or at Wasps.

Always bear in mind the punchline of an old joke.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 1:05 pm

riocard911 wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
riocard911 wrote:How the mighty have fallen applies also to the incumbent Wasps coach. Loadsamoney backing him up for the last few years with very little to show for it. I remember well when Marty Moore was departing our shores for the Ricoh and talking up the prospect of learning from Dai Young. So much for that......


I see this snidely mentioned again and again. What am I missing here?
What's the issue in Marty saying part of the reason he wanted to move was to learn from an excellent scrummager?


The impression created by Marty Moore by his own words was, that he was moving on to better and brighter things i.e. leaving a sinking ship and advancing his career under the tutelage of a proven coach at a well-resourced club. I'm merely pointing out that the prospects failed to match up with the reality - in Leinster or at Wasps.


Was it really, or was that just the impression you took from one quote about his new coach?

I mean he could just have been sincerely saying he wanted to learn from a Lions test prop and of course wanted to say nice things about Wasps. Did he mention anything that remotely painted Leinster as a 'sinking ship'?

Unfortunately for Marty (and Irish rugby) the move didn't work out.

But I find this schadenfreude stuff a bit ridiculous.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » January 14th, 2019, 1:06 pm

wixfjord wrote:
It keeps getting trotted out as a way to either dig at Young or Moore, and I'm not really sure why?


I scoffed at it because I didn't (and still don't) think it made sense. Marty probably never saw Dai Young play, I'm a few years older than Marty and I barely remember him. Not saying he wasn't a good player, but don't think Marty would have been dying to play for him, it's not like the Wasps scrum had a fearsome reputation did it?
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 1:11 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
It keeps getting trotted out as a way to either dig at Young or Moore, and I'm not really sure why?


I scoffed at it because I didn't (and still don't) think it made sense. Marty probably never saw Dai Young play, I'm a few years older than Marty and I barely remember him. Not saying he wasn't a good player, but don't think Marty would have been dying to play for him, it's not like the Wasps scrum had a fearsome reputation did it?


I don't know, I'm sure he's aware of Young's reputation and playing career.

But my main point is even if Marty didn't know him, why is this one line of a player praising his new coach is taken with such spikiness by Leinster fans and as a slight on us? Even 3-4 years later it still pops up regularly, and people like riocard clearly have a grudge based on it!

Almost every player who leaves will trot out some quote about how they're looking forward to their new team blah blah, but this one seems to have been taken to heart and interpreted as if he was digging at a 'sinking ship'!
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby locho » January 14th, 2019, 1:20 pm

wixfjord wrote:
I don't think Dai Young is 'blaming' anyone judging on those quotes, what he has said is factual. But yes it was the wrong approach and they're compounding it now with the CVC stuff.

I'm not saying Leinster are anywhere near the salary cap of an English side, in fact the opposite, but this is somewhat balanced out by other factors I think. We do have in built benefits in that our league is far less attritional, we have player management and I think our leaders take a far smarter and longer term approach to player development than theirs, which is partly a result of the first two things I mentioned.


I suppose the blame element is more with the media than Dai Young per se, however the fact he is personally bemoaning the situation doesn't come across well, as when he and others mention this it's never in the context of "English Rugby made a mistake" but always in the context of "Pro14 have an unfair advantage" which is framed as if they can't do anything about it. When they clearly can, E.g. utilise the vastly superior playing numbers in England to develop a squad of 45 players to rotate throughout a season.

The other alternative is to change the structure of the professional game in England but that is unlikely to happen until at least a few clubs go to the wall, which if Dai gets his way and they increase the cap will become ever more likely!
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby fourthirtythree » January 14th, 2019, 1:29 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
It keeps getting trotted out as a way to either dig at Young or Moore, and I'm not really sure why?


I scoffed at it because I didn't (and still don't) think it made sense. Marty probably never saw Dai Young play, I'm a few years older than Marty and I barely remember him. Not saying he wasn't a good player, but don't think Marty would have been dying to play for him, it's not like the Wasps scrum had a fearsome reputation did it?


Or Cardiff, where he would have encountered him and a team coached by him more often.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » January 14th, 2019, 1:30 pm

wixfjord wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
It keeps getting trotted out as a way to either dig at Young or Moore, and I'm not really sure why?


I scoffed at it because I didn't (and still don't) think it made sense. Marty probably never saw Dai Young play, I'm a few years older than Marty and I barely remember him. Not saying he wasn't a good player, but don't think Marty would have been dying to play for him, it's not like the Wasps scrum had a fearsome reputation did it?


I don't know, I'm sure he's aware of Young's reputation and playing career.

But my main point is even if Marty didn't know him, why is this one line of a player praising his new coach is taken with such spikiness by Leinster fans and as a slight on us? Even 3-4 years later it still pops up regularly, and people like riocard clearly have a grudge based on it!

Almost every player who leaves will trot out some quote about how they're looking forward to their new team blah blah, but this one seems to have been taken to heart and interpreted as if he was digging at a 'sinking ship'!


I'm sure he became aware of it, but was it such a draw that he had to give up his Ireland career? Did it outweigh training against Healy and McGrath? Was his reputation that much better than Feek? I don't believe so. The story at the time was that he signed a contract and didn't realise it was binding, thought he'd still be able to stay and tried to make it happen, which also feeds into it not being true. Also worth mentioning that Marty did Law in college...so avoid him if you ever need advice.

Agree about him not having a dig at us though.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Laighin Break » January 14th, 2019, 1:35 pm

wixfjord wrote:
locho wrote:
wixfjord wrote:If you read what Young has said (and not the bits written around it) I think it's all fair enough by the way.

The salary cap is high fair enough, but it is also a more attritional league and more diluted in terms of player base per club.

The IRFU and Leinster branch have done an incredible job, but we do have some advantages over the English clubs (no relegation, player management, joined up system and a large base to pick from in Leinster's case.)


I don't' think anybody would argue that we don't have advantages over them, but the key point is that is the system we chose, they chose a different system in England (e.g. privately owned de-centralized clubs) they could've had a centralized system but the clubs didn't want it and the issue is that they don't have the commercial viability to sustain 12 clubs with a squad of 25+ internationals. They are effectively crying about taking the wrong decision 15-20 years ago but are trying to blame us because we made the right decision.

I also think the salary cap isn't an issue, they have £7m per club, if you also consider that the internationals get paid from RFU on top of this it's effectively more. If you consider Leinster and looked at our full squads wage bill, and then took away an IRFU contribution of say 30% per international player (a fair % when you consider about 40-50% of their playing time is for Ireland), i would be highly surprised if it came to more than £7m (or €7.85m)


I don't think Dai Young is 'blaming' anyone judging on those quotes, what he has said is factual. But yes it was the wrong approach and they're compounding it now with the CVC stuff.

I'm not saying Leinster are anywhere near the salary cap of an English side, in fact the opposite, but this is somewhat balanced out by other factors I think. We do have in built benefits in that our league is far less attritional, we have player management and I think our leaders take a far smarter and longer term approach to player development than theirs, which is partly a result of the first two things I mentioned.


Genuine question - how is the Pro14 far less attritional?
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 1:39 pm

Laighin Break wrote:
Genuine question - how is the Pro14 far less attritional?


Because there's no relegation the average game doesn't mean as much to all teams and this combined with player management means we don't need to play our big players in almost every game.
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