Wasps getting excuses in early

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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby mildlyinterested » January 14th, 2019, 1:48 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
Genuine question - how is the Pro14 far less attritional?


Because there's no relegation the average game doesn't mean as much to all teams and this combined with player management means we don't need to play our big players in almost every game.



tell that to the players playing for a contract.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Peg Leg » January 14th, 2019, 1:55 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:He didn't?


He didn't what?

learn from an excellent scrummager

You're assuming he it was "scrummaging" he wanted to learn about. Could have been crochet, grifting, failing upwards etc.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 1:58 pm

mildlyinterested wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
Genuine question - how is the Pro14 far less attritional?


Because there's no relegation the average game doesn't mean as much to all teams and this combined with player management means we don't need to play our big players in almost every game.



tell that to the players playing for a contract.


Sure, every league has players playing for a contract.

Not every league has relegation.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Laighin Break » January 14th, 2019, 1:59 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
Genuine question - how is the Pro14 far less attritional?


Because there's no relegation the average game doesn't mean as much to all teams and this combined with player management means we don't need to play our big players in almost every game.


Okay, so Pro14 being less attritional and player management are pretty much part of the same 'factor'.
That said, relegation is only a worry for the bottom few clubs usually, not for all teams. Usually it would be a factor for the Challenge Cup teams rather than Champions Cup team.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby artaneboy » January 14th, 2019, 2:02 pm

locho wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
I don't think Dai Young is 'blaming' anyone judging on those quotes, what he has said is factual. But yes it was the wrong approach and they're compounding it now with the CVC stuff.

I'm not saying Leinster are anywhere near the salary cap of an English side, in fact the opposite, but this is somewhat balanced out by other factors I think. We do have in built benefits in that our league is far less attritional, we have player management and I think our leaders take a far smarter and longer term approach to player development than theirs, which is partly a result of the first two things I mentioned.


I suppose the blame element is more with the media than Dai Young per se, however the fact he is personally bemoaning the situation doesn't come across well, as when he and others mention this it's never in the context of "English Rugby made a mistake" but always in the context of "Pro14 have an unfair advantage" which is framed as if they can't do anything about it. When they clearly can, E.g. utilise the vastly superior playing numbers in England to develop a squad of 45 players to rotate throughout a season.

The other alternative is to change the structure of the professional game in England but that is unlikely to happen until at least a few clubs go to the wall, which if Dai gets his way and they increase the cap will become ever more likely!


This "unfair advantage" stuff is so obviously BS! As you note, the English clubs (they rather than the weedily compliant RFU demanded it) made the decision to adopt their commercial/ decentalised contract model. For years they lauded its effectiveness and value. Now that its not working as well for them- its the Irish system (which they sneered at previously) that is 'unfair'.

There are all sorts of analogies to the UK and Brexit that i will not introduce- but it's the same mind set. A built-in sense of superiority/ entitlement, which when reality does not deliver as they believe it should, leads to cries of cheating and demands that the rules be changed to suit their personally tailored reality.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Peg Leg » January 14th, 2019, 2:02 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
Genuine question - how is the Pro14 far less attritional?


Because there's no relegation the average game doesn't mean as much to all teams and this combined with player management means we don't need to play our big players in almost every game.

The same number of players tog out, a similar number of matches are played and I would suspect the injury profile of the leagues are not dissimilar. But perhaps the injuries happen to more Daly's than Vunipola's?
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 2:03 pm

Laighin Break wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
Genuine question - how is the Pro14 far less attritional?


Because there's no relegation the average game doesn't mean as much to all teams and this combined with player management means we don't need to play our big players in almost every game.


Okay, so Pro14 being less attritional and player management are pretty much part of the same 'factor'.
That said, relegation is only a worry for the bottom few clubs usually, not for all teams. Usually it would be a factor for the Challenge Cup teams rather than Champions Cup team.


Well Bath, Northampton, Newcastle, Leicester are all in the bottom half currently and are in the Champions Cup.

But the relegation threatened clubs don't just play against each other!
So I'd imagine they bring a level of intensity and aggression against top sides that Zebre, Dragons etc don't.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 2:04 pm

Peg Leg wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
Genuine question - how is the Pro14 far less attritional?


Because there's no relegation the average game doesn't mean as much to all teams and this combined with player management means we don't need to play our big players in almost every game.

The same number of players tog out, a similar number of matches are played and I would suspect the injury profile of the leagues are not dissimilar. But perhaps the injuries happen to more Daly's than Vunipola's?


They do, but individually matches probably mean more to the clubs involved, particularly coming towards the end of the season where teams in the bottom of the Pro14 have little to play for.
Last edited by wixfjord on January 14th, 2019, 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Ruckedtobits » January 14th, 2019, 2:05 pm

Our League is less attritional by choice of playing style and by exposure of Academy players in development. Premiership rugby is played in a style the coaches choose.
Their Coaches, generally, choose their best players every week and do not appear to want to develop young players.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 2:05 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:Our League is less attritional by choice of playing style and by exposure of Academy players in development. Premiership rugby is played in a style the coaches choose.
Their Coaches, generally, choose their best players every week and do not appear to want to develop young players.


And why do you think that is?
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby fourthirtythree » January 14th, 2019, 2:06 pm

Relegation only exists for the English because they can't close the league off (London irish are part owners), otherwise they would have. Leinster and the other Irish teams don't just "rest" players: player management protocols preclude their being played. This forces us to play younger players and develop them to the betterment of the squad, the national side, and the league. See Toby Faletau playing Ulster's kiddies and espoirs while Irish lions were on the beach.

The English need to sort their own house out, rather than throw stones. They have all the money, the player numbers, "The best league in the world". Just not the success that they should have with those advantages. But sure, that's someone elses' fault.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » January 14th, 2019, 2:07 pm

Don't forget that Bruce Craig wants replays as well :lol:
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby fourthirtythree » January 14th, 2019, 2:07 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:Our League is less attritional by choice of playing style and by exposure of Academy players in development. Premiership rugby is played in a style the coaches choose.
Their Coaches, generally, choose their best players every week and do not appear to want to develop young players.


And why do you think that is?

Because they are allowed to. Were the Irish allowed to chances are they would do a MOC on it.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » January 14th, 2019, 2:09 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:Relegation only exists for the English because they can't close the league off (London irish are part owners), otherwise they would have. Leinster and the other Irish teams don't just "rest" players: player management protocols preclude their being played. This forces us to play younger players and develop them to the betterment of the squad, the national side, and the league. See Toby Faletau playing Ulster's kiddies and espoirs while Irish lions were on the beach.

The English need to sort their own house out, rather than throw stones. They have all the money, the player numbers, "The best league in the world". Just not the success that they should have with those advantages. But sure, that's someone elses' fault.


Remember Faletau played in a friendly in Donnybrook after the Lions tour?
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 2:12 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:Our League is less attritional by choice of playing style and by exposure of Academy players in development. Premiership rugby is played in a style the coaches choose.
Their Coaches, generally, choose their best players every week and do not appear to want to develop young players.


And why do you think that is?

Because they are allowed to. Were the Irish allowed to chances are they would do a MOC on it.


Partly for sure.

And partly because they need to, because there's a threat of going down and every game means slightly more to both clubs involved because of this.

DOC has spoke quite a bit about his time at Worcester and why their predicament meant they played dour, attritional, cup rugby. There isn't any incentive to play young players or try a different style if it's even an iota more likely that you'll lose.

Because the Pro14 is mostly sorted out with a few months to go, there's no fear of being demoted and because of player management, the same elements don't apply to Pro14, or certainly not as much.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby fourthirtythree » January 14th, 2019, 2:25 pm

wixfjord wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:
wixfjord wrote:And why do you think that is?

Because they are allowed to. Were the Irish allowed to chances are they would do a MOC on it.


Partly for sure.

And partly because they need to, because there's a threat of going down and every game means slightly more to both clubs involved because of this.

DOC has spoke quite a bit about his time at Worcester and why their predicament meant they played dour, attritional, cup rugby. There isn't any incentive to play young players or try a different style if it's even an iota more likely that you'll lose.

Because the Pro14 is mostly sorted out with a few months to go, there's no fear of being demoted and because of player management, the same elements don't apply to Pro14, or certainly not as much.


So a less entertaining spectacle, poorer player welfare management, less adventurous coaching, a dour slog, and lack of comparative success. What a win win situation for the English to be throwing stones at others from. Sort their own sh!t out first. This is getting boring from them. Or better: don't.

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Remember Faletau played in a friendly in Donnybrook after the Lions tour?


I hadn't, I missed that preseason, it was the same time as I was thinking about with Ulster though I think. His subsequent injury was unrelated but...
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Lar » January 14th, 2019, 2:32 pm

English Clubs still have 8 titles in the Big European Cup, as many as France and more than the Pro14 (Ireland). Saracens have won 2 of the last 3. They won 5 of the ten titles on offer in the noughties.

All whilst relegation has been an issue for the Premiership (under whatever sponsor's name was then current). I have no idea whether the salary cap has been an issue throughout the whole of this period.

When they were winning in the noughties it was precisely because they felt that their sides were more battle hardened through playing in an attritional league with the threat of relegation than the Celtic League/Magners League/Pro12 or whatever our league was then called. The fact is that currently the Pro14 sides are managing their squads better towards peaking in Europe.

The French also have relegation in the Top14 and they also have 8 titles. The French have won four titles in this decade. Maybe we don't hear about their coaches utterances because of the language barrier and French media being a little less accessible here.

But my point is that these things tend to be cyclical. The Irish sides looked like they had been frozen out a little when the competition was re-vamped. The Pro12 performed particularly badly one year not long after. But Leinster (in particular) and Munster (to a lesser but still considerable extent), looked at what they needed to to do to perform better in Europe and upped their game. Scarlets got the Welsh a first semi-final for ages last season. There is a fair chance we could have two Scottish sides in the last eight after next week. The Pro14 is looking strong at present.

I doubt that will last. In time the Premiership will change something and it will suit how they perform in Europe and surely the French will have three or four sides challenging again. Its hard to believe Toulouse and Racing have been so strong this year but we don't even have Clermont in the big cup this season, nor Toulouse last season.

No club or country has a right to do well in the competition. They have to earn it. Right now the Premiership sides (bar Saracens) are not doing so.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby hugonaut » January 14th, 2019, 2:54 pm

artaneboy wrote:
This "unfair advantage" stuff is so obviously BS! As you note, the English clubs (they rather than the weedily compliant RFU demanded it) made the decision to adopt their commercial/ decentalised contract model. For years they lauded its effectiveness and value. Now that its not working as well for them- its the Irish system (which they sneered at previously) that is 'unfair'.

There are all sorts of analogies to the UK and Brexit that i will not introduce- but it's the same mind set. A built-in sense of superiority/ entitlement, which when reality does not deliver as they believe it should, leads to cries of cheating and demands that the rules be changed to suit their personally tailored reality.


Todd Blackadder is a New Zealander. He didn't set-up or invent the English professional rugby system, he's just employed in it. I think it's pretty legitimate for him to give his opinions on the difficulty his club faces in European competition. He's well-placed to give it. These are the problems as they see them. You ask the coach of Wasps or Bath what he thinks, you're going to get an answer heavily flavoured by Wasps'/Bath's current problems/blessings.

If you're expecting the coaches of English clubs to start telling the English rugby media that the Irish provinces are just better than us, they're better coached and conditioned and the Irish system is just super-duper, you'll be waiting a long time. When did anybody in Irish rugby ever say that about Toulon when they won three in a row? All we did was b*tch and moan about them buying their way to the cup [me included].

Over the last five years, the cup has been won by a team from Ireland, a team from England and a team from France. The English thought it looked unbalanced when Irish provinces won four in five years from 08-12, we thought it looked unbalanced when Toulon won three in a row from 13-15. It's not particularly unbalanced. It's like that phrase "not a vintage Six Nations": only one team wins the Six Nations each year, and if it wasn't your team it was "not a vintage Six Nations".

I agree on the club owners/Brexit analogy. Those lads are full of sh*t and all the stuff about "delivering five multinational partners" doesn't get brought up often enough. But the guys coaching teams are operating in a system they have no power to change. I wouldn't be too hard on them if they're a little bit whiny once in a while. They work for arseh*les.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » January 14th, 2019, 3:00 pm

Agree with that to a large extent Hugo, but also think it's worth noting that Blackadder is off at the end of the season, so he probably has to make some excuses in order to make himself look more employable.

I'm sure MOC had a "well it was really difficult to put my stamp on the team when the IRFU interfered so much" style speech ready to go when he went for the Leicester job.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby hugonaut » January 14th, 2019, 4:01 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Agree with that to a large extent Hugo, but also think it's worth noting that Blackadder is off at the end of the season, so he probably has to make some excuses in order to make himself look more employable.

I'm sure MOC had a "well it was really difficult to put my stamp on the team when the IRFU interfered so much" style speech ready to go when he went for the Leicester job.


Absolutely. These guys have their own agenda ... like anybody and everybody. I rarely read what they have to say about European competition anymore. It tends towards the repetitive and it has no relevance to Leinster's performance in the competition.
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