Leinster Scrumhalves

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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby hugonaut » January 23rd, 2019, 8:51 pm

mildlyinterested wrote:
ronk wrote:O'Sullivan just made his HC debut and has 7 caps this season (& isn't finished).

There could be a start soon to accommodate Lowe and Fardy


for a total of 95 total senior minutes.

he needs game time and he is missing out on getting a lot of it at AIL level, due to the injury situation in the senior team.

Does that 95 minutes for Leinster outweigh whatever minutes he would have gotten with Clontarf in his long term development?


Very good question. I believer that you need time under tension as a halfback to improve. Scrumhalves and outhalves don't have to be physical phenoms, they have to be footballing phenoms. They need a sharp skillset and a sharp mindset.

Most people say that a scrum-half's primary strength should be his pass. I think it should be his decision-making. It wouldn't be unusual for a scrum-half to touch the ball 80-100 times in a game. Each time he's got a decision to pass/run/kick, and a decision to go open/blind. A run down the blindside might be a poor option in the same circumstance where a pass to a blindside winger might be a good option.

The coaching team should outline a strategy that helps the player narrow these decisions based on where the team is on the pitch, but you've still got to make decisions based on what is in front of you - for example, Wasps scrumhalf Robson seeing Fardy pulled out of the back of the ruck at the weekend and Porter being a little bit wide at pillar. If he had just passed to his first receiver, I doubt anybody would have said that he should have thrown a dummy and had a dart through the middle ... the option doesn't sound particularly promising. But he's got 170+ first class games under his belt, he saw it as an option and the result was a five-pointer and a big lesson for Porter.

Obviously the pro game is at a higher pace than the amateur game [i.e. you have to make quicker decisions], but it's a real argument as to whether playing 4 or 6 minutes of a game at scrumhalf and touching the ball four or five times at pro level is as useful to your long term development as playing a full game and making loads of decisions at the slower pace of amateur level.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby Oldschool » January 23rd, 2019, 9:19 pm

hugonaut wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:
ronk wrote:O'Sullivan just made his HC debut and has 7 caps this season (& isn't finished).

There could be a start soon to accommodate Lowe and Fardy


for a total of 95 total senior minutes.

he needs game time and he is missing out on getting a lot of it at AIL level, due to the injury situation in the senior team.

Does that 95 minutes for Leinster outweigh whatever minutes he would have gotten with Clontarf in his long term development?


Very good question. I believer that you need time under tension as a halfback to improve. Scrumhalves and outhalves don't have to be physical phenoms, they have to be footballing phenoms. They need a sharp skillset and a sharp mindset.

Most people say that a scrum-half's primary strength should be his pass. I think it should be his decision-making. It wouldn't be unusual for a scrum-half to touch the ball 80-100 times in a game. Each time he's got a decision to pass/run/kick, and a decision to go open/blind. A run down the blindside might be a poor option in the same circumstance where a pass to a blindside winger might be a good option.

The coaching team should outline a strategy that helps the player narrow these decisions based on where the team is on the pitch, but you've still got to make decisions based on what is in front of you - for example, Wasps scrumhalf Robson seeing Fardy pulled out of the back of the ruck at the weekend and Porter being a little bit wide at pillar. If he had just passed to his first receiver, I doubt anybody would have said that he should have thrown a dummy and had a dart through the middle ... the option doesn't sound particularly promising. But he's got 170+ first class games under his belt, he saw it as an option and the result was a five-pointer and a big lesson for Porter.

Obviously the pro game is at a higher pace than the amateur game [i.e. you have to make quicker decisions], but it's a real argument as to whether playing 4 or 6 minutes of a game at scrumhalf and touching the ball four or five times at pro level is as useful to your long term development as playing a full game and making loads of decisions at the slower pace of amateur level.

You touched on it near the end but it needed more emphasis.
IThe speed of the decision making is really crucial.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby hugonaut » January 23rd, 2019, 9:30 pm

Oldschool wrote:You touched on it near the end but it needed more emphasis.
IThe speed of the decision making is really crucial.


Being exposed to more diverse situations, having to make more decisions and learning to trust your decision-making instincts based on the results of same arguably the necessary foundation for making quick decisions.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby mildlyinterested » January 23rd, 2019, 9:57 pm

Agree completely Hugo, Hughie didn't play 9 in school so needs the game time and exposure to making decisions even more than the usual young 9. Patterson to a degree too as he played wing in 5th year. I'm sure the plan for the season was for Hughie & PP to play AIL as much as possible but injuries in the senior team have prevented that, which IMO not good for their long term development. Suppose there isn't much Leinster can do about the situation, but it's not ideal.

Cormac Foley is another sub-academy 9 in leinster setup who played another position in school, who needs game time to develop his decision making.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby ronk » January 24th, 2019, 3:54 am

Match minutes are important, a lot of the learning happens when you are getting reps in training with an expectation of playing. Being that much closer to the front line has benefits, and they’re probably better than AIL time, as long as it doesn’t stay that way for too long.

There’s a hole in the squad coming after Nick McCarthy next season but it’s probably not big enough to sign someone. There’s motivation for accelerated development for at least 18 months on top of already this season. That’s pretty much the ideal scenario for a young academy player. Some have to be patient.

Munster have done huge favours to Frawley, O’Sullivan and Patterson.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby mildlyinterested » January 24th, 2019, 8:55 am

ronk wrote:Match minutes are important, a lot of the learning happens when you are getting reps in training with an expectation of playing. Being that much closer to the front line has benefits, and they’re probably better than AIL time, as long as it doesn’t stay that way for too long.

There’s a hole in the squad coming after Nick McCarthy next season but it’s probably not big enough to sign someone. There’s motivation for accelerated development for at least 18 months on top of already this season. That’s pretty much the ideal scenario for a young academy player. Some have to be patient.

Munster have done huge favours to Frawley, O’Sullivan and Patterson.


a lot of learning happens playing the game and making decisions in the game, they are not better than the AIL and whatever about the motivation for accelerated development the opportunity to play the game and develop is being curtailed by the limited minutes they are getting.

IMO getting minutes here and there off the bench for the 1st team in non-pressurized scenarios doesn't do much for their development.

but not much leinster can do about it given the injury situation.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby Jonny tight lips » January 24th, 2019, 9:04 am

mildlyinterested wrote:Agree completely Hugo, Hughie didn't play 9 in school so needs the game time and exposure to making decisions even more than the usual young 9. Patterson to a degree too as he played wing in 5th year. I'm sure the plan for the season was for Hughie & PP to play AIL as much as possible but injuries in the senior team have prevented that, which IMO not good for their long term development. Suppose there isn't much Leinster can do about the situation, but it's not ideal.

Cormac Foley is another sub-academy 9 in leinster setup who played another position in school, who needs game time to develop his decision making.


He did play a lot of 9 in school but was moved to full back where he continued to cover 9 regularly so he’s not a complete novice. I imagine he will start the two home games against cheers and southern kings, probably embark too if Luke isint back.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby mildlyinterested » January 24th, 2019, 10:02 am

Jonny tight lips wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:Agree completely Hugo, Hughie didn't play 9 in school so needs the game time and exposure to making decisions even more than the usual young 9. Patterson to a degree too as he played wing in 5th year. I'm sure the plan for the season was for Hughie & PP to play AIL as much as possible but injuries in the senior team have prevented that, which IMO not good for their long term development. Suppose there isn't much Leinster can do about the situation, but it's not ideal.

Cormac Foley is another sub-academy 9 in leinster setup who played another position in school, who needs game time to develop his decision making.


He did play a lot of 9 in school but was moved to full back where he continued to cover 9 regularly so he’s not a complete novice. I imagine he will start the two home games against cheers and southern kings, probably embark too if Luke isint back.


I know he wasn't a complete novice, but playing 15 mostly at SCT level certainly will have limited his exposure to making decisions at 9, which you could see improving last season for the 20's as he gained more experience at the position.
He needs as much meaningful game time as possible to continue to develop that.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby ronk » January 25th, 2019, 6:18 am

mildlyinterested wrote:
a lot of learning happens playing the game and making decisions in the game, they are not better than the AIL and whatever about the motivation for accelerated development the opportunity to play the game and develop is being curtailed by the limited minutes they are getting.

IMO getting minutes here and there off the bench for the 1st team in non-pressurized scenarios doesn't do much for their development.

but not much leinster can do about it given the injury situation.


And yet Leo did do something about it this weekend.

Leinster have built a strong tradition of competitive cameos for academy players. They are expected to give 100% for even the smallest chances. Mostly they do.

The short appearances appear to have been building up to something. Now maybe if McCarthy and McGrath were fit it would be different, but even at that Park is benching.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby mildlyinterested » January 25th, 2019, 8:52 am

It's not a criticism of Leo or the coaching staff, just a reality of the current injury situation and developing young 9's.

Hughie starting tomorrow is an excellent development opportunity and it appears paddy patterson is starting for UCD at the weekend too, which is good to see.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby ronk » January 25th, 2019, 9:37 am

I'm giving him credit for not signing a joker and instead taking an opportunity to accelerate development of an academy player.

He's setting it up so Leinster may be able to not sign a (3rd choice) scrumhalf for next season and is taking a risk to do it.

Leinster have 3 senior scrumhalves and academy scrumhalves who were about 2 years from the squad. With 2 injured we could have a problem if Park gets hurt/banned.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby mildlyinterested » January 25th, 2019, 9:45 am

it's clear leinster won't be going to the market for a 3rd scrumhalf, that will be Hughie next season.

I'm just saying for his development, i'd consider starting and playing AIL games is probably more beneficial than 5-10 minutes off the bench against teams already beaten.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby Lar » January 25th, 2019, 9:48 am

What about starting v Scarlets?
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby mildlyinterested » January 25th, 2019, 10:11 am

Lar wrote:What about starting v Scarlets?


If you read my previous posts you'd know the answer.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby Lar » January 25th, 2019, 11:29 am

Apols MI - don't know how I missed your earlier post. I was puzzled you hadn't alluded to HOS starting tonight, but I now see you had unsurprisingly done so.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby mildlyinterested » January 25th, 2019, 11:31 am

Lar wrote:Apols MI - don't know how I missed your earlier post. I was puzzled you hadn't alluded to HOS starting tonight, but I now see you had unsurprisingly done so.


No worries, Hughie starting tonight is great, he needs to be starting as many games as possible and being put in pressure situations, if he can get that at pro 14 level all the better.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby Oldschool » January 25th, 2019, 11:42 am

mildlyinterested wrote:
Lar wrote:Apols MI - don't know how I missed your earlier post. I was puzzled you hadn't alluded to HOS starting tonight, but I now see you had unsurprisingly done so.


No worries, Hughie starting tonight is great, he needs to be starting as many games as possible and being put in pressure situations, if he can get that at pro 14 level all the better.

+1.
With Conference B almost sorted we don't need to sign s medical joker.
It's quite likely that JGP will spend a fair bit of time on the bench for Pro14 games and may not be involved at all in some games.
A medical joker really only becomes an issue for the HEC maybe!
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby Peg Leg » January 25th, 2019, 12:33 pm

Fuk conferences, like seriously, they are shit. I no longer give a sh!t about half the teams in our league and a lot of the time im not sure which teams I am meant to give a sh!t about.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby tomthefan » January 25th, 2019, 12:40 pm

Peg Leg wrote:Fuk conferences, like seriously, they are shit. I no longer give a sh!t about half the teams in our league and a lot of the time im not sure which teams I am meant to give a sh!t about.


Yes, I'd have my doubts too about the direction the Pro14 is taking. The SA teams have added nothing so far and yet the talk is of further expansion.
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Re: Leinster Scrumhalves

Postby paddyor » January 25th, 2019, 1:25 pm

Peg Leg wrote:Fuk conferences, like seriously, they are shit. I no longer give a sh!t about half the teams in our league and a lot of the time im not sure which teams I am meant to give a sh!t about.

In a combined league you wouldn't give a damn about half the teams either though. We'd be cantering to a home qf anyway even if we finished 2nd.
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