Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby Laighin Break » January 28th, 2019, 9:02 am

Serb wrote:
wixfjord wrote:He didn't 'cost us the game' against Munster.

And saying he 'should have cost us this one'' is also hyperbole.

He's a 21 year old outhalf, he's expected to be a mixed bag. Besides Friday night he has been way more good than bad though. His performance against Ospreys was excellent and he led us to an interpro win against Ulster.

Plenty of players get intercepted. It has happened Luke McGrath a few times this year too. That one really did cost us a game. It happens.


His forced pass to Reid did cost us the game against Munster. Obviously that’s my opinion, but we were on top for that whole game, we would have eventually put points on the board in those phases and Munster never looked like scoring at any point in that game.

It’s hardly hyperbole to claim the intercept would have cost us the game when the player drops the ball over the line in the most unlikely of scenarios. Did Freddie Burns cost Bath the game against Toulouse? Same thing.

Now, my point is not to rag on Frawley. It seems likely that he will be a decent player, but my point is that we will miss the experience of someone like Reid at 22 or stepping into 10 from the center when Sexton is not available next season.

I think Frawley looks a lot rougher than Byrne and Carbery did at the same age, probably because he’s only been looked at as a full time 10 since Cathal Marsh got injured. I think he needs a lot more time to be a viable option.


Claiming that an intercept in the 41st minute, when Leinster were winning 10-0, would have cost us the game is most certainly hyperbole
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby Peg Leg » January 28th, 2019, 9:13 am

I know there were rumours in the press etc. But is this a done deal with Reid? I don't recall any update or haven't read anything since the pre-christmas speculation.

If this is true, I will be propper gutted, like Contepomi leaving, Gleeson and Hickey early retirement gutted.

If this is a side effect of signing Tomane, then Leo backed the wrong horse.

Ford, Tomane, Tuillagi would be a top top Premiership midfield, top top.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby mildlyinterested » January 28th, 2019, 9:55 am

apparently Frawley popped his shoulder out and the doctor put it back in on the field
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby wixfjord » January 28th, 2019, 11:21 am

Serb wrote:
wixfjord wrote:He didn't 'cost us the game' against Munster.

And saying he 'should have cost us this one'' is also hyperbole.

He's a 21 year old outhalf, he's expected to be a mixed bag. Besides Friday night he has been way more good than bad though. His performance against Ospreys was excellent and he led us to an interpro win against Ulster.

Plenty of players get intercepted. It has happened Luke McGrath a few times this year too. That one really did cost us a game. It happens.


His forced pass to Reid did cost us the game against Munster. Obviously that’s my opinion, but we were on top for that whole game, we would have eventually put points on the board in those phases and Munster never looked like scoring at any point in that game.

It’s hardly hyperbole to claim the intercept would have cost us the game when the player drops the ball over the line in the most unlikely of scenarios. Did Freddie Burns cost Bath the game against Toulouse? Same thing.

Now, my point is not to rag on Frawley. It seems likely that he will be a decent player, but my point is that we will miss the experience of someone like Reid at 22 or stepping into 10 from the center when Sexton is not available next season.

I think Frawley looks a lot rougher than Byrne and Carbery did at the same age, probably because he’s only been looked at as a full time 10 since Cathal Marsh got injured. I think he needs a lot more time to be a viable option.


That can be your opinion. But it's not true. An intercept try when we were down 19-10 and down a man in the 71st minute objectively did not 'cost us the game'. That's ridiculous.


As is comparing the Burns incident which occured in the last minute with Bath a few points down to an intercept in the 51st minute of a game we were 10-0 up in.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby Serb » January 28th, 2019, 11:29 am

wixfjord wrote:That can be your opinion. But it's not true. An intercept try when we were down 19-10 and down a man in the 71st minute objectively did not 'cost us the game'. That's ridiculous.


As is comparing the Burns incident which occured in the last minute with Bath a few points down to an intercept in the 51st minute of a game we were 10-0 up in.


I’ll admit it’s more of a stretch in the Munster game, but I believe if we came away with points from those phases, we would have kicked on and won that game. The intercept was a momentum shift. We were on top for that entire game even with 14 men.

Similar in the Scarlets game, I mean the points they missed out on by dropping the ball before the line literally cost them a draw at worst. Leo Cullen in his post match interview claims the game felt like a loss. It was a massive stroke of luck and would have resulted in a loss had it been scored.

But look, you disagree. Good for you. Let’s move on and talk about something else.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby curates_egg » January 28th, 2019, 11:34 am

wixfjord wrote:
He didn't 'cost us the game' against Munster.


Yeah, sorry, that bit was obvious hyperbole.

However, he does seem to try and force a lot of plays, and his high-risk pass selection has almost cost us on other occasions (than the actual intercepts).
Of course, he is very young and only just getting to grips with the Pro14, buy it is definitely frustrating to see him making the same mistakes (and same bad decisions).

It obviously didn't help anyone with the situation the IRFU put us in by forcing Carbery to break contract.
Last season, Frawley was ticking along playing in different positions for the As, and getting eased into low-pressure games in the Pro14.
Now he is our number three outhalf (although the fact we are playing Reid there shows just what the management thinks of that situation).

Exposing him to this level is the only way to give him a chance to improve, and to see if he has the potential to be an outhalf for us for the future.
And the two younger guys clearly aren't ready yet, although I wouldn't be surprised if one of them gets a run out in the RDS in the latter half of the regular season.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby Laighin Break » January 28th, 2019, 11:35 am

Serb wrote:
wixfjord wrote:That can be your opinion. But it's not true. An intercept try when we were down 19-10 and down a man in the 71st minute objectively did not 'cost us the game'. That's ridiculous.


As is comparing the Burns incident which occured in the last minute with Bath a few points down to an intercept in the 51st minute of a game we were 10-0 up in.


I’ll admit it’s more of a stretch in the Munster game, but I believe if we came away with points from those phases, we would have kicked on and won that game. The intercept was a momentum shift. We were on top for that entire game even with 14 men.

Similar in the Scarlets game, I mean the points they missed out on by dropping the ball before the line literally cost them a draw at worst. Leo Cullen in his post match interview claims the game felt like a loss. It was a massive stroke of luck and would have resulted in a loss had it been scored.

But look, you disagree. Good for you. Let’s move on and talk about something else.


Had that try been scored, the rest of the game would not have panned out exactly as it did. It's ridiculous to assume it would have.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby wixfjord » January 28th, 2019, 11:39 am

curates_egg wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
He didn't 'cost us the game' against Munster.


Yeah, sorry, that bit was obvious hyperbole.

However, he does seem to try and force a lot of plays, and his high-risk pass selection has almost cost us on other occasions (than the actual intercepts).
Of course, he is very young and only just getting to grips with the Pro14, buy it is definitely frustrating to see him making the same mistakes (and same bad decisions).

It obviously didn't help anyone with the situation the IRFU put us in by forcing Carbery to break contract.
Last season, Frawley was ticking along playing in different positions for the As, and getting eased into low-pressure games in the Pro14.
Now he is our number three outhalf (although the fact we are playing Reid there shows just what the management thinks of that situation).

Exposing him to this level is the only way to give him a chance to improve, and to see if he has the potential to be an outhalf for us for the future.
And the two younger guys clearly aren't ready yet, although I wouldn't be surprised if one of them gets a run out in the RDS in the latter half of the regular season.


He has just turned 21. And I don't think the 'intercept pass' thing is nearly as big an issue as you're making it out to be.

You wouldn't happen to be still annoyed about Carbery and trying to project some of that would you?
Last edited by wixfjord on January 28th, 2019, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby wixfjord » January 28th, 2019, 11:43 am

Serb wrote:
wixfjord wrote:That can be your opinion. But it's not true. An intercept try when we were down 19-10 and down a man in the 71st minute objectively did not 'cost us the game'. That's ridiculous.


As is comparing the Burns incident which occured in the last minute with Bath a few points down to an intercept in the 51st minute of a game we were 10-0 up in.


I’ll admit it’s more of a stretch in the Munster game, but I believe if we came away with points from those phases, we would have kicked on and won that game. The intercept was a momentum shift. We were on top for that entire game even with 14 men.

Similar in the Scarlets game, I mean the points they missed out on by dropping the ball before the line literally cost them a draw at worst. Leo Cullen in his post match interview claims the game felt like a loss. It was a massive stroke of luck and would have resulted in a loss had it been scored.

But look, you disagree. Good for you. Let’s move on and talk about something else.


That's a fair Nostradamus claim! You're assuming that the rest of the game would've played out exactly as is if that try had've been scored are you?

I think you're unfairly blaming a player for two errors, neither of which actually cost us a game, and comparing both examples to an incident that literally cost a team a game (Burns) isn't helping.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby curates_egg » January 28th, 2019, 11:49 am

wixfjord wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
He didn't 'cost us the game' against Munster.


Yeah, sorry, that bit was obvious hyperbole.

However, he does seem to try and force a lot of plays, and his high-risk pass selection has almost cost us on other occasions (than the actual intercepts).
Of course, he is very young and only just getting to grips with the Pro14, buy it is definitely frustrating to see him making the same mistakes (and same bad decisions).

It obviously didn't help anyone with the situation the IRFU put us in by forcing Carbery to break contract.
Last season, Frawley was ticking along playing in different positions for the As, and getting eased into low-pressure games in the Pro14.
Now he is our number three outhalf (although the fact we are playing Reid there shows just what the management thinks of that situation).

Exposing him to this level is the only way to give him a chance to improve, and to see if he has the potential to be an outhalf for us for the future.
And the two younger guys clearly aren't ready yet, although I wouldn't be surprised if one of them gets a run out in the RDS in the latter half of the regular season.


He has just turned 21. And I don't think the 'intercept pass' thing is nearly as big an issue as you're making it out to be.

You wouldn't happen to be still annoyed about Carbery and trying to project some of that would you?


I'm definitely still annoyed about Carbery, and think it let to an unfair situation for Leinster and Frawley, but that is not relevant to my assessment of Frawley.

It's also not just about throwing high-risk passes, it is making the same bad decisions.

However, I also agree (and said) that he is very young (although now no different to many of the backs we bring through).
It is great that we are in a position where we can give him a bit of a chance.

Either way, I would be surprised if we don't at least have a look at one of the other two before the season is out.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby wixfjord » January 28th, 2019, 12:04 pm

curates_egg wrote:
I'm definitely still annoyed about Carbery, and think it let to an unfair situation for Leinster and Frawley, but that is not relevant to my assessment of Frawley.

It's also not just about throwing high-risk passes, it is making the same bad decisions.

However, I also agree (and said) that he is very young (although now no different to many of the backs we bring through).
It is great that we are in a position where we can give him a bit of a chance.

Either way, I would be surprised if we don't at least have a look at one of the other two before the season is out.


Once again though, he has just turned 21. It's ridiculously harsh to complain about a guy who is learning his trade at outhalf of 'making the same bad decisions'.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby backrower8 » January 28th, 2019, 2:20 pm

wixfjord wrote:Doris looks to my untrained eye a better bet as an 8 than Deegan, who was quiet.


It is still too early (forwards aged 20 & 22,with 18 months between them) To my trained eye the opposite is the case. Deegan has exceptional moves and hands and a knack for scoring tries that will benefit a team the more touches he gets. That points to 8. Whereas Doris has more power which also suits 6.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby wixfjord » January 28th, 2019, 2:21 pm

backrower8 wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Doris looks to my untrained eye a better bet as an 8 than Deegan, who was quiet.


It is still too early (forwards aged 20 & 22,with 18 months between them) To my trained eye the opposite is the case. Deegan has exceptional moves and hands and a knack for scoring tries that will benefit a team the more touches he gets. That points to 8. Whereas Doris has more power which also suits 6.


Like clockwork...
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby backrower8 » January 28th, 2019, 2:41 pm

wixfjord wrote:
backrower8 wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Doris looks to my untrained eye a better bet as an 8 than Deegan, who was quiet.


It is still too early (forwards aged 20 & 22,with 18 months between them) To my trained eye the opposite is the case. Deegan has exceptional moves and hands and a knack for scoring tries that will benefit a team the more touches he gets. That points to 8. Whereas Doris has more power which also suits 6.


Like clockwork...


Yeah the Doris cheerleaders are full-on this season. He will be challenging CJ for the jersey come October apparently!

I noticed you winding up the clock up several times there...sorry I am late to respond...hope you're not too disappointed duuuuude :lol:
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby wixfjord » January 28th, 2019, 2:49 pm

backrower8 wrote:
I noticed you winding up the clock up several times there...sorry I am late to respond...hope you're not too disappointed duuuuude :lol:


It's funny, because you yourself have said that we need a "VERY strong carrier at 8" and that Deegan "needs some more beef on bones".

Which is what I've said above.

You wouldn't be *slightly* biased towards Deegan by any chance?

(Or maybe it's just real rogby goys opinions that count!)
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby Laighin Break » January 28th, 2019, 3:01 pm

wixfjord wrote:
backrower8 wrote:
I noticed you winding up the clock up several times there...sorry I am late to respond...hope you're not too disappointed duuuuude :lol:


It's funny, because you yourself have said that we need a "VERY strong carrier at 8" and that Deegan "needs some more beef on bones".

Which is what I've said above.

You wouldn't be *slightly* biased towards Deegan by any chance?

(Or maybe it's just real rogby goys opinions that count!)


Could I hazard a guess that Deegan attended Michael's and Doris didn't?

That said, I would like to see Doris @ 6 and Deegan @ 8 trialled.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby curates_egg » January 28th, 2019, 3:19 pm

wixfjord wrote:
curates_egg wrote:
I'm definitely still annoyed about Carbery, and think it let to an unfair situation for Leinster and Frawley, but that is not relevant to my assessment of Frawley.

It's also not just about throwing high-risk passes, it is making the same bad decisions.

However, I also agree (and said) that he is very young (although now no different to many of the backs we bring through).
It is great that we are in a position where we can give him a bit of a chance.

Either way, I would be surprised if we don't at least have a look at one of the other two before the season is out.


Once again though, he has just turned 21. It's ridiculously harsh to complain about a guy who is learning his trade at outhalf of 'making the same bad decisions'.


So what you are saying is that everybody on this forum should unquestioningly indulge players not improving because they are young? You're entitled to your opinion, even if you don't share the same approach to the opinions of others.
I must have understood the purpose of this forum, and forums in general: I thought it was to discuss our team.

I think something is getting lost in translation though, if you believe it is 'ridiculously harsh' for me to say it is great he is getting a chance.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby backrower8 » January 28th, 2019, 3:22 pm

wixfjord wrote:
backrower8 wrote:
I noticed you winding up the clock up several times there...sorry I am late to respond...hope you're not too disappointed duuuuude :lol:


It's funny, because you yourself have said that we need a "VERY strong carrier at 8" and that Deegan "needs some more beef on bones".

Which is what I've said above.

You wouldn't be *slightly* biased towards Deegan by any chance? Eh no. I would pick Ringer over ROL. Fardy over Molony. Adam Byrne over Cian Kelleher. I am very pragmatic

(Or maybe it's just real rogby goys opinions that count!)
Correct. Every time. Glad to see you paying such close attention. Keep it up.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby wixfjord » January 28th, 2019, 3:23 pm

Laighin Break wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
backrower8 wrote:
I noticed you winding up the clock up several times there...sorry I am late to respond...hope you're not too disappointed duuuuude :lol:


It's funny, because you yourself have said that we need a "VERY strong carrier at 8" and that Deegan "needs some more beef on bones".

Which is what I've said above.

You wouldn't be *slightly* biased towards Deegan by any chance?

(Or maybe it's just real rogby goys opinions that count!)


Could I hazard a guess that Deegan attended Michael's and Doris didn't?

That said, I would like to see Doris @ 6 and Deegan @ 8 trialled.


I would too, I think they're very different players who could give us some different options. But it was noticeable on Fri for me how effective Doris was in tight carrying and how hard he hit. Despite being 2 yrs younger he looks a good bit more physical and can make harder yards. Deegan is a great wide carrier, but I think to be a top class 8 in the modern game you need to be a bit of a brute, unless you're some sort of Heaslip/Read esque freak.

Now that pecking order can change quickly, but that would be my reading of it at the moment.
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Re: Scarlets at home, 25/01 7.35pm

Postby wixfjord » January 28th, 2019, 3:24 pm

backrower8 wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
backrower8 wrote:
I noticed you winding up the clock up several times there...sorry I am late to respond...hope you're not too disappointed duuuuude :lol:


It's funny, because you yourself have said that we need a "VERY strong carrier at 8" and that Deegan "needs some more beef on bones".

Which is what I've said above.

You wouldn't be *slightly* biased towards Deegan by any chance? Eh no. I would pick Ringer over ROL. Fardy over Molony. Adam Byrne over Cian Kelleher. I am very pragmatic

(Or maybe it's just real rogby goys opinions that count!)
Correct. Every time. Glad to see you paying such close attention. Keep it up.


You'd pick objectively better players over slightly worse players? That's a BIG statement!
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