Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

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Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby Flash Gordon » April 3rd, 2019, 1:31 pm

Many of us are disappointed that we've again lost a very very good player in Jack McGrath. He may not be in the best form of his life but he is a test Lion, 50 cap Irish international and is still very much in the Ireland mix.

Over the course of the last year we've lost internationals Joey Carbery and Jordi Murphy. We've also lost Isa, we will lose Sean O'Brien at the end of the season and we'll lose squad and academy players too. Additionally, we currently have 2 international backrowers who have been or are the victims of long term injury and Robbie Henshaw is so injury prone that he has actually played more games for Ireland than Leinster. In the meantime, we have to deal with the foreigner ruling that results in arguably our best outside back not playing in european quarter final.

All of this points to a significant depletion of resources for us that is significantly impacting our competitiveness. Sexton is out number 1 starter but having a back up like Joey might be the difference between a Heineken Cup semi and winning the tournament. There is also the possibility that Johnny might be one game away from his last, he'll be 34 at the World Cup and plays close enough to the line that he has always taken a lot of punishment. Similarly, given the backrow situation, Jordi would have been a guaranteed starter. If Church gets injured we bring in a Lion.

I understand that Ireland are our paymasters and we need to structure rugby to prioritise them, i also get that the fact that the academies in the other provinces have been incredibly poor so we need to plug a gap (that's not an overnight fix). However, i think it's got to the point where our resources have been so depleted that we could become uncompetitive. I would have looked at the home game against Toulouse last year and felt confident, this year I'm not sure and to be honest I'd almost fear Sarries in a final.

For the first time ever I hesitated before renewing my season ticket, watching the impact this has on my team coupled with watching Leinster heroes lining out against us is pretty demoralising and possibly more importantly compromises the IRFU strategic plan tournament result objectives.
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby mildlyinterested » April 3rd, 2019, 1:47 pm

Competitive? Yes.

Successful? Possibly.

Significantly weakened? For sure.

Out biggest rivals strengthened at our expense? Without a doubt.
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby cormac » April 3rd, 2019, 1:49 pm

We'll still be able to field an excellent team next season, just we don't have the same depth in the squad as we did last season in particular. We'll be more prone to injuries potentially impeding our progress.

Whatever about the role of Nucifora in moving players on, there will always be players who aren't comfortable playing second or third fiddle and will want to move on.

A potential 23 to start our first HCC game in November;

Kearney, Larmour, Ringrose, Henshaw, Lowe, Sexton, McGrath; Healy, Cronin, Furlong, Toner, Ryan, Ruddock, vd Flier, Conan

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Fardy, Deegan, Gibson-Park, Byrne, O'Loughlin

Most teams in Europe would give their right eye for that.
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby leinsterforever » April 3rd, 2019, 1:51 pm

Leavy's a bigger loss than McGrath imo. Should Leinster be looking into signing an openside for next season?
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby mildlyinterested » April 3rd, 2019, 1:52 pm

cormac wrote:We'll still be able to field an excellent team next season, just we don't have the same depth in the squad as we did last season in particular. We'll be more prone to injuries potentially impeding our progress.

Whatever about the role of Nucifora in moving players on, there will always be players who aren't comfortable playing second or third fiddle and will want to move on.

A potential 23 to start our first HCC game in November;

Kearney, Larmour, Ringrose, Henshaw, Lowe, Sexton, McGrath; Healy, Cronin, Furlong, Toner, Ryan, Ruddock, vd Flier, Conan

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Fardy, Deegan, Gibson-Park, Byrne, O'Loughlin

Most teams in Europe would give their right eye for that.


Will irish players be available so closely after the WC?
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby Flash Gordon » April 3rd, 2019, 1:54 pm

cormac wrote:We'll still be able to field an excellent team next season, just we don't have the same depth in the squad as we did last season in particular. We'll be more prone to injuries potentially impeding our progress.

Whatever about the role of Nucifora in moving players on, there will always be players who aren't comfortable playing second or third fiddle and will want to move on.

A potential 23 to start our first HCC game in November;

Kearney, Larmour, Ringrose, Henshaw, Lowe, Sexton, McGrath; Healy, Cronin, Furlong, Toner, Ryan, Ruddock, vd Flier, Conan

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Fardy, Deegan, Gibson-Park, Byrne, O'Loughlin

Most teams in Europe would give their right eye for that.


That's very true but last weekend we had a backline of Ross Byrne, ROL, Ringer, Dave, Byrne and Larmour. I'm not sure many European teams would be sacrificing eyes for these lads, think Champions Cup contenders would take Ringrose and maybe look at Larmour. I'm not sure about Rob by the way.....
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby Flash Gordon » April 3rd, 2019, 1:56 pm

leinsterforever wrote:Leavy's a bigger loss than McGrath imo. Should Leinster be looking into signing an openside for next season?


How about Sean O'Brien from London Irish or Jordi Murphy from Ulster..... ;-)
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby cormac » April 3rd, 2019, 2:06 pm

mildlyinterested wrote:
cormac wrote:We'll still be able to field an excellent team next season, just we don't have the same depth in the squad as we did last season in particular. We'll be more prone to injuries potentially impeding our progress.

Whatever about the role of Nucifora in moving players on, there will always be players who aren't comfortable playing second or third fiddle and will want to move on.

A potential 23 to start our first HCC game in November;

Kearney, Larmour, Ringrose, Henshaw, Lowe, Sexton, McGrath; Healy, Cronin, Furlong, Toner, Ryan, Ruddock, vd Flier, Conan

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Fardy, Deegan, Gibson-Park, Byrne, O'Loughlin

Most teams in Europe would give their right eye for that.


Will irish players be available so closely after the WC?


There's a four-week gap between Ireland's inevitable quarter-final defeat and Leinster's first game in Europe so I'd expect any of the non-injured players to play. Never been an issue before.
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby leinsterforever » April 3rd, 2019, 2:07 pm

Flash Gordon wrote:
cormac wrote:We'll still be able to field an excellent team next season, just we don't have the same depth in the squad as we did last season in particular. We'll be more prone to injuries potentially impeding our progress.

Whatever about the role of Nucifora in moving players on, there will always be players who aren't comfortable playing second or third fiddle and will want to move on.

A potential 23 to start our first HCC game in November;

Kearney, Larmour, Ringrose, Henshaw, Lowe, Sexton, McGrath; Healy, Cronin, Furlong, Toner, Ryan, Ruddock, vd Flier, Conan

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Fardy, Deegan, Gibson-Park, Byrne, O'Loughlin

Most teams in Europe would give their right eye for that.


That's very true but last weekend we had a backline of Ross Byrne, ROL, Ringer, Dave, Byrne and Larmour. I'm not sure many European teams would be sacrificing eyes for these lads, think Champions Cup contenders would take Ringrose and maybe look at Larmour. I'm not sure about Rob by the way.....


I dunno. Sometimes the grass can look greener on the other side of the fence. Racing have Ben Volavola as their bench outhalf, and Saracens have nearly 36 yo David Strettle on the wing (although he's still very good tbf). That Toulouse lad who came up with the offload is only 20 and was making his debut, or so I heard.
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby mildlyinterested » April 3rd, 2019, 2:07 pm

cormac wrote:
mildlyinterested wrote:
cormac wrote:We'll still be able to field an excellent team next season, just we don't have the same depth in the squad as we did last season in particular. We'll be more prone to injuries potentially impeding our progress.

Whatever about the role of Nucifora in moving players on, there will always be players who aren't comfortable playing second or third fiddle and will want to move on.

A potential 23 to start our first HCC game in November;

Kearney, Larmour, Ringrose, Henshaw, Lowe, Sexton, McGrath; Healy, Cronin, Furlong, Toner, Ryan, Ruddock, vd Flier, Conan

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Fardy, Deegan, Gibson-Park, Byrne, O'Loughlin

Most teams in Europe would give their right eye for that.


Will irish players be available so closely after the WC?


There's a four-week gap between Ireland's inevitable quarter-final defeat and Leinster's first game in Europe so I'd expect any of the non-injured players to play. Never been an issue before.


true.
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby mildlyinterested » April 3rd, 2019, 2:07 pm

leinsterforever wrote:
Flash Gordon wrote:
cormac wrote:We'll still be able to field an excellent team next season, just we don't have the same depth in the squad as we did last season in particular. We'll be more prone to injuries potentially impeding our progress.

Whatever about the role of Nucifora in moving players on, there will always be players who aren't comfortable playing second or third fiddle and will want to move on.

A potential 23 to start our first HCC game in November;

Kearney, Larmour, Ringrose, Henshaw, Lowe, Sexton, McGrath; Healy, Cronin, Furlong, Toner, Ryan, Ruddock, vd Flier, Conan

Tracy, Byrne, Porter, Fardy, Deegan, Gibson-Park, Byrne, O'Loughlin

Most teams in Europe would give their right eye for that.


That's very true but last weekend we had a backline of Ross Byrne, ROL, Ringer, Dave, Byrne and Larmour. I'm not sure many European teams would be sacrificing eyes for these lads, think Champions Cup contenders would take Ringrose and maybe look at Larmour. I'm not sure about Rob by the way.....


I dunno. Sometimes the grass can look greener on the other side of the fence. Racing have Ben Volavola as their bench outhalf, and Saracens have nearly 36 yo David Strettle on the wing (although he's still very good tbf). That Toulouse lad who came up with the offload is only 20 and was making his debut, or so I heard.


Toulouse have some outrageously talented young players, especially backs.
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby wixfjord » April 3rd, 2019, 2:17 pm

Jaysus lads, I know there's been bad news with Leavy/McGrath but it's like a feckin morgue in here! We're into two home semi finals and are getting key players back, it's not all bad!

In terms of not renewing a season ticket, what sort of fan thinks in that manner after losing a few players?!

Less of the kneejerkism and negativity please.

We'll still be able to put out one of the best 23s in Europe. The 3 player rule ending will give us added options. We've incredibly exciting young guys like Doris, Penny, Kelleher, Harry Byrne ready to break through and guys like Deegan & COB who could be international level if they keep going on the same trajectory.

We've plenty of money, excellent facilities and the possibility of a stadium upgrade still there.

And most importantly we've one of the best coaching tickets in the world.

We've heard a lot of this before around the French/English domination and how we'd never win in Europe again.
It didn't come to pass and while our depth has taken a hit, there's a lot to be positive about.
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby Flash Gordon » April 3rd, 2019, 2:28 pm

wixfjord wrote:Jaysus lads, I know there's been bad news with Leavy/McGrath but it's like a feckin morgue in here! We're into two home semi finals and are getting key players back, it's not all bad!

In terms of not renewing a season ticket, what sort of fan thinks in that manner after losing a few players?!

Less of the kneejerkism and negativity please.

We'll still be able to put out one of the best 23s in Europe. The 3 player rule ending will give us added options. We've incredibly exciting young guys like Doris, Penny, Kelleher, Harry Byrne ready to break through and guys like Deegan & COB who could be international level if they keep going on the same trajectory.

We've plenty of money, excellent facilities and the possibility of a stadium upgrade still there.

And most importantly we've one of the best coaching tickets in the world.

We've heard a lot of this before around the French/English domination and how we'd never win in Europe again.
It didn't come to pass and while our depth has taken a hit, there's a lot to be positive about.


We barely break even, we've lost a number of big front line players and we have sh!t facilities - two ends of the ground are roofless, we have a stand which everyone knows needs to be knocked down and a temporary stand.

As for the young players, clearly none of those players you mention are in contention for a first team place and the concern is that we keep producing them and they keep getting shipped out!

There is also a real question mark for me about provincial identity. One of the things that makes Leinster special and always has is that the lads who played were players you knew, had seen grow up or you knew their parents. Now we are seeing those same players come back and play AGAINST Leinster. Same issue for the other provinces, Munster and ulster have always been clubs that were big on culture, does that approach work when you've got a bunch of Leinster and South African lads on the pitch?
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby wixfjord » April 3rd, 2019, 2:48 pm

Flash Gordon wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Jaysus lads, I know there's been bad news with Leavy/McGrath but it's like a feckin morgue in here! We're into two home semi finals and are getting key players back, it's not all bad!

In terms of not renewing a season ticket, what sort of fan thinks in that manner after losing a few players?!

Less of the kneejerkism and negativity please.

We'll still be able to put out one of the best 23s in Europe. The 3 player rule ending will give us added options. We've incredibly exciting young guys like Doris, Penny, Kelleher, Harry Byrne ready to break through and guys like Deegan & COB who could be international level if they keep going on the same trajectory.

We've plenty of money, excellent facilities and the possibility of a stadium upgrade still there.

And most importantly we've one of the best coaching tickets in the world.

We've heard a lot of this before around the French/English domination and how we'd never win in Europe again.
It didn't come to pass and while our depth has taken a hit, there's a lot to be positive about.


We barely break even, we've lost a number of big front line players and we have sh!t facilities - two ends of the ground are roofless, we have a stand which everyone knows needs to be knocked down and a temporary stand.

As for the young players, clearly none of those players you mention are in contention for a first team place and the concern is that we keep producing them and they keep getting shipped out!

There is also a real question mark for me about provincial identity. One of the things that makes Leinster special and always has is that the lads who played were players you knew, had seen grow up or you knew their parents. Now we are seeing those same players come back and play AGAINST Leinster. Same issue for the other provinces, Munster and ulster have always been clubs that were big on culture, does that approach work when you've got a bunch of Leinster and South African lads on the pitch?


That's the spirit!
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby bails » April 3rd, 2019, 3:14 pm

It just seems sad that the most successful Irish Provincial squad in history is now being dismantled to backfill gaps in other Irish sides.
And more so when you consider that the other sides did not bother doing the hard work in developing players, rather they took the easy and expensive option of filling up with overseas players, who take the cash and appear to have added nothing back in terms of prizes or prizemoney.

Why not let the other Provincial sides raise the bar and reach Leinster's standards, rather than reducing our standard to fall in line with the other provinces.

Its sad and disheartening for all of us who have supported through thicj and thin and seen our Club develop into a European Standard Bearer.

Maybe we should go the whole hog - bring back Matt O'Connor !!!
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » April 3rd, 2019, 3:18 pm

wixfjord wrote:Jaysus lads, I know there's been bad news with Leavy/McGrath but it's like a feckin morgue in here! We're into two home semi finals and are getting key players back, it's not all bad!



Was thinking about the "key players" part after the Ulster game. We weren't great on Saturday but could potentially make 6 changes to the backline for Toulouse and not bat an eyelid (JGP, Sexton, Lowe, Henshaw, Ringrose, Larmour to the wing, Rob). Not saying we will, although I could easily see Sexton, Lowe, Henshaw and Rob starting. My point is just that we do still have depth even if it's not quite as good as last year.

Regardless of who else leaves I've no doubt that we'll be fine for getting to the semis of both competitions, but between last summer and summer 2020 we're probably going to have lost an awful lot of experienced medal winners and that could be crucial in deciding the biggest games.
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby riocard911 » April 3rd, 2019, 3:19 pm

bails wrote:It just seems sad that the most successful Irish Provincial squad in history is now being dismantled to backfill gaps in other Irish sides.
And more so when you consider that the other sides did not bother doing the hard work in developing players, rather they took the easy and expensive option of filling up with overseas players, who take the cash and appear to have added nothing back in terms of prizes or prizemoney.

Why not let the other Provincial sides raise the bar and reach Leinster's standards, rather than reducing our standard to fall in line with the other provinces.

Its sad and disheartening for all of us who have supported through thicj and thin and seen our Club develop into a European Standard Bearer.

Maybe we should go the whole hog - bring back Matt O'Connor !!!


Great idea! When's he leading the march to Lansdowne Road? I'll bring me pitchfork!!!
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby neiliog93 » April 3rd, 2019, 4:17 pm

"It just seems sad that the most successful Irish Provincial squad in history is now being dismantled to backfill gaps in other Irish sides."

That's it in a nutshell.

We won't win another European Cup beyond this season unless we either reinforce with a couple of high quality NIEs (unlikely) or get very, very lucky with injuries and the vast majority of our first choice 15 and (23) stay fit for the duration of the competition, which is also very unlikely.
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby Dave Cahill » April 3rd, 2019, 4:23 pm

She took them by surprise, when she took them by the throat
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Re: Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

Postby bails » April 3rd, 2019, 4:24 pm

And saddest part is that it was not the money grabbing English Premiership or French Top 14 that will have killed the golden goose, it was our own IRFU and their NIQ Quartermaster Nucifora.
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