Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

[bails]

She took them by surprise, when she took them by the throat

Housemartins story of the demise of Leinster

[mildlyinterested]

Saracens are adding a lions outside back from a rival next season.

Leinster are losing a lions prop to a rival next season.
Leinster are also losing a lions backrow next season and possibly a lions fullback.

One of Leinster's best players and candidates to play for the lions was just injured so badly that their are doubts about his career.

[leinsterforever]

It'll be interesting to see which of Leinster and Saracens has more British Lions in 2021.

[Flash Gordon]

Saracens are adding a lions outside back from a rival next season.

Leinster are losing a lions prop to a rival next season.
Leinster are also losing a lions backrow next season and possibly a lions fullback.

One of Leinster's best players and candidates to play for the lions was just injured so badly that their are doubts about his career.

Exactly right, it's not just that we are losing fantastic internationals like Joey, Jordi or McGrath it that our rivals are strengthening. The world you live in never stays the same, if we take one step back we will end up 2 steps behind.

[Keith]

It'll be interesting to see which of Leinster and Saracens has more British Lions in 2021.

Saracens will definetly have more British lions but I'd say we will provide more Irish lions to the team.

[blockhead]

It'll be interesting to see which of Leinster and Saracens has more British Lions in 2021.

Saracens will definetly have more British lions but I'd say we will provide more Irish lions to the team.

Beat me to it Keith.

[Ruckedtobits]

And saddest part is that it was not the money grabbing English Premiership or French Top 14 that will have killed the golden goose, it was our own IRFU and their NIQ Quartermaster Nucifora.

And isn't that the truth, but nobody can say we weren't warned. Remember what he did to the development of Austalian rugby! The only difference is we got a Grand Slam, two 6N Championships and a European Cup before the writing was on the wall.

[Blueberry]

Many of us are disappointed that we've again lost a very very good player in Jack McGrath. He may not be in the best form of his life but he is a test Lion, 50 cap Irish international and is still very much in the Ireland mix.

Over the course of the last year we've lost internationals Joey Carbery and Jordi Murphy. We've also lost Isa, we will lose Sean O'Brien at the end of the season and we'll lose squad and academy players too. Additionally, we currently have 2 international backrowers who have been or are the victims of long term injury and Robbie Henshaw is so injury prone that he has actually played more games for Ireland than Leinster. In the meantime, we have to deal with the foreigner ruling that results in arguably our best outside back not playing in european quarter final.

All of this points to a significant depletion of resources for us that is significantly impacting our competitiveness. Sexton is out number 1 starter but having a back up like Joey might be the difference between a Heineken Cup semi and winning the tournament. There is also the possibility that Johnny might be one game away from his last, he'll be 34 at the World Cup and plays close enough to the line that he has always taken a lot of punishment. Similarly, given the backrow situation, Jordi would have been a guaranteed starter. If Church gets injured we bring in a Lion.

I understand that Ireland are our paymasters and we need to structure rugby to prioritise them, i also get that the fact that the academies in the other provinces have been incredibly poor so we need to plug a gap (that's not an overnight fix). However, i think it's got to the point where our resources have been so depleted that we could become uncompetitive. I would have looked at the home game against Toulouse last year and felt confident, this year I'm not sure and to be honest I'd almost fear Sarries in a final.

For the first time ever I hesitated before renewing my season ticket, watching the impact this has on my team coupled with watching Leinster heroes lining out against us is pretty demoralising and possibly more importantly compromises the IRFU strategic plan tournament result objectives.

Very good post and I share your concerns. Leinster have built the best academy in Europe. Over the last decade Leinster has been the greatest club team in Europe. This success has of course driven the Ireland team forward. Politics, unfortunately, like in every walk of life get in the way and I have no doubt there has been huge pressure to even up the provinces especially coming from down south, where our success has driven them demented to the point where they are happy to do anything to get winning again including damaging Leinster and importing truck loads of saffers and kiwis. The logical thing to do is let Leinster to continue to do what we have been doing, be a success and if that means being the bulk supplier to the Ireland team, so what. Results are results. If England could win the world cup with a team largely from Saracens, they would do so. You of course invest and get Munster and Ulster to develop their own academies and you can plug gaps in their squads with Leinster cast offs (as Leinster decide), if that is required. However, what has happened is Leinster is being weakened and the national team will suffer. By shifting Leinster players to other provinces against Leinster's wishes, you are rewarding failure at Munster and Ulster and penalising success and performance at Leinster. This never ends well. It's stupidity of the highest order. It's hugely disappointing that the IRFU don't recognise that the single greatest strength in Irish rugby has been the fact that 'local lads play for their local province', the great Munster teams from years back and the great last decade that Leinster have had, have been driven by this. Fans love it and it really means something. Munster as it stands, if they win anything this year means next to nothing, little more than a Toulon job. Our 'local lads playing for local provinces' is unique in European rugby and it is being destroyed in front of our eyes. The rubicon was crossed with the whole Carbery thing, prior to IRFU meddling and Munster interference Carbery wanted to be at Leinster and Leinster wanted him to stay. Leinster will remain competitive in Europe but are weakened and at the business end of a competition this may well cost us trophies in coming years. It's a pity, we had a good thing going but now as well as fighting to stay ahead of big money in France and the UK we have to fight petty jealousy from other provinces and an IRFU who does not seem to realise what actually made Leinster and Irish rugby great. Watching Ulster get close to us in a quarter final with huge performances from Leinster players like Murphy, Cooney and Moore brought it home and at 10 we had Noel Reid as backup (no disrespect to Noel who I love at 12 but he's not a HCUP 10), why, because our red cousins had stolen Carbery. I won't apologise for blue tinted glasses and don't have to because our performance speaks for itself and rather than being lauded and supported we are now targets for the other Irish provinces and the IRFU. Petty and pathetic the whole thing and ultimately when we fall out of the World Cup this year having failed to deliver (I hope this isn't the case of course) I wonder will anyone in a red or white jersey or in the IRFU begin to wake up, damage has been done already.

After our semi final loss to Clermont in Lyon in 2017, while sitting in the Lyon sun reflecting on the loss, while of course disappointed, I was over the moon and excited because our province at that point in time was on an upward curve with youngsters coming through and the future seemed bright. 2018 brought the fourth title and it was the perfect year on the pitch. It was wonderful. 2019 for me (while we are still on target for more trophies) has been less enjoyable as behind the on pitch performances we are under threat and what's sad is it's not French or UK money but bitter locals and a failure to reward excellence from the IRFU.

[Degz]

Not sure why people think that Munster can just 'fix' their academy; they simply don't have the numbers and will always have holes to plug.

It's a similar, albeit not as serious, problem in the North.

[deco]

Not sure why people think that Munster can just 'fix' their academy; they simply don't have the numbers and will always have holes to plug.

It's a similar, albeit not as serious, problem in the North.

Yes, they have less numbers, but to say "they simply don't have the numbers" is a cop-out trotted out all the time. No problem with them filing holes, but the hole they have is so big that the plug is half their squad. Ulster similar.

The issue Leinster fans have is, that the holes are being plugged with our strength & depth.

[The Doc]

Not sure why people think that Munster can just 'fix' their academy; they simply don't have the numbers and will always have holes to plug.

It's a similar, albeit not as serious, problem in the North.

I agree they may not have the numbers of potential academy recruits. But the issue is that they just don't develop their academy (or squad players) and play them so little. There is a piece by Demented Mole looking at the Munster squad and academy usage and it's startling how much they rely on their front line players.

So it's one thing to have less resources - understandable. It's another thing to not use the resources you have. And as I have said elsewhere, you can make the population argument all you want, but they aren't dipping into the Leinster general population. They are taking from the Leinster rugby squad which is exactly the same size as the other provinces. I'd have no issue with the provinces picking up the lads who don't make the academy but may be great players. But waiting for Leinster to develop them and give them first team experience before bothering their arse - just seems lazy

[OTT]

Not sure why people think that Munster can just 'fix' their academy; they simply don't have the numbers and will always have holes to plug.

It's a similar, albeit not as serious, problem in the North.

I agree they may not have the numbers of potential academy recruits. But the issue is that they just don't develop their academy (or squad players) and play them so little. There is a piece by Demented Mole looking at the Munster squad and academy usage and it's startling how much they rely on their front line players.

So it's one thing to have less resources - understandable. It's another thing to not use the resources you have. And as I have said elsewhere, you can make the population argument all you want, but they aren't dipping into the Leinster general population. They are taking from the Leinster rugby squad which is exactly the same size as the other provinces. I'd have no issue with the provinces picking up the lads who don't make the academy but may be great players. But waiting for Leinster to develop them and give them first team experience before bothering their arse - just seems lazy

+1

[blockhead]

Not sure why people think that Munster can just 'fix' their academy; they simply don't have the numbers and will always have holes to plug.

It's a similar, albeit not as serious, problem in the North.

I agree they may not have the numbers of potential academy recruits. But the issue is that they just don't develop their academy (or squad players) and play them so little. There is a piece by Demented Mole looking at the Munster squad and academy usage and it's startling how much they rely on their front line players.

So it's one thing to have less resources - understandable. It's another thing to not use the resources you have. And as I have said elsewhere, you can make the population argument all you want, but they aren't dipping into the Leinster general population. They are taking from the Leinster rugby squad which is exactly the same size as the other provinces. I'd have no issue with the provinces picking up the lads who don't make the academy but may be great players. But waiting for Leinster to develop them and give them first team experience before bothering their arse - just seems lazy

And that's it.
They have the players, but they don't rate them. In a normal situation Munster would have to blood these players and risk, god-forbid, losing a few games.
Instead the IRFU allow them to cherry pick from the Leinster squad.
Any Leinster player who is not playing every game is a target now.
If you don't go to Munster/Ulster yo don't go to the World Cup.

[riocard911]

Case in point, Bill Johnston, who three years ago was the "next big thing" and who's then promising career with Munster has been left to wither on the vine:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 65695.html

[bails]

Potential Solution to the current movement of players cross Province :

At academy level or even sub academy level, why not allow each Province pick players from wherever in the country. They make offers to the players, along the established contract levels, and let the players decide where they go.

Thereafter each Province develops and utilises their Academy players, as they see fit, and those Provinces that are successful in this are rewarded by a stronger squad, success on the pitch (hopefully) and are more attractive to the next stream of academy hopefuls.
Those Provinces that cant be arsed doing the hard work developing the players, slip away gradually until they understand and get working on it.
The majority of the country's best players get to play at the highest club/provincial level, with succession planning easier in the long run and ultimate success in the hands of the Provinces.
It also does away with the ludicrous current position where Provinces that have working on their development of players within the squad are penalised for doing this.

Of course senior squads continue to be interspersed with permitted NIQ's and those IQ players developed outside of Ireland.
It would put a stop to the cherry picking of players, from Provinces that have done the hard yards.

[Flash Gordon]

Not sure why people think that Munster can just 'fix' their academy; they simply don't have the numbers and will always have holes to plug.

It's a similar, albeit not as serious, problem in the North.

You can't fix the problem that easily, that's exactly right. This is a big issue of course. Leinster's academy was built off the 10 year plan from mini rugby upwards so it's a far out fix so we can expect this for years to come.

Again, I have no issue with transferring resources per se for the good of Ireland or even to support other provinces. The issue is that Leinster are weakened such that we become uncompetitive and I think we are approaching that point now. Saracens, Toulon, Toulouse strengthen we deplete our resources of international players, that clearly makes us less likely to win a Champions Cup.

[Blueberry]

Munster won't take the pain of building from the ground up, they won't tolerate dropping out of the HCUP and being a mid tier PRO 14 team..............by the grace of god they have to be at the top table, no matter what the cost.

Half a side stolen and imported from Leinster and SA / NZ means less locals will come through, simples.............it's inevitable.

Leinster on the other hand have built slowly and constantly blooded players in the PRO 14 - Ross Byrne for example was very 'fresh' when he started playing PRO 14 and many had their doubts. But exposure brought his talent through. Bill Johnson for example may be great but we will never know......imported Tyler and stolen Carbery in the way now...........

Rewarding failure and penalizing success never ends well.

[deco]

Case in point, Bill Johnston, who three years ago was the "next big thing" and who's then promising career with Munster has been left to wither on the vine:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 65695.html

That is shocking

[deco]

Munster won't take the pain of building from the ground up, they won't tolerate dropping out of the HCUP and being a mid tier PRO 14 team..............by the grace of god they have to be at the top table, no matter what the cost.

The truth is that without their imports, they would be mid-table also-rans. They really do think they are entitled to dine at the top table, I just wonder what Connacht could have achieved if given the same opportunities.

[The Doc]

Case in point, Bill Johnston, who three years ago was the "next big thing" and who's then promising career with Munster has been left to wither on the vine:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 65695.html

Rather than laud one example - why not look at the overall picture... https://dementedmole.com/2018/12/29/mai ... #more-6854