Can Leinster be competitive in the coming seasons?

[olaf the fat]

We have to get used to this new cycle.

Develop a squad full of skill, experience and depth - get success, then get stripped - start again. It hurts, but some of it is for the good of Ireland, and some the natural result of too many top players for too few starting places.

We just have to figure out how long the cycle really takes?

[leinsterforever]

Munster won't take the pain of building from the ground up, they won't tolerate dropping out of the HCUP and being a mid tier PRO 14 team..............by the grace of god they have to be at the top table, no matter what the cost.

The truth is that without their imports, they would be mid-table also-rans. They really do think they are entitled to dine at the top table, I just wonder what Connacht could have achieved if given the same opportunities.

Yeah, I think there is a bit of entitlement with Munster. I don't think they'd have deigned to sign Beirne when he was being released by Leinster. But once Scarlets developed him to a very high standard they couldn't wait to get their greasy paws all over him. Loughman just happened by chance really. They signed him as emergency cover and then realised he was actually very good. I don't think they'd have signed him on a permanent deal from the start with a view to developing him. Oliver is just being used as squad filler when he'd actually be their best openside if they invested in him.

At least Ulster and Connacht have the right idea, not being above taking on guys who didn't quite make it at Leinster and trying to get them to a new level.

[leinster23]

If James Ryan was from Munster Billy Holland would probably still be keeping him out of the 23.

[Flash Gordon]

Munster won't take the pain of building from the ground up, they won't tolerate dropping out of the HCUP and being a mid tier PRO 14 team..............by the grace of god they have to be at the top table, no matter what the cost.

The truth is that without their imports, they would be mid-table also-rans. They really do think they are entitled to dine at the top table, I just wonder what Connacht could have achieved if given the same opportunities.

Yeah, I think there is a bit of entitlement with Munster. I don't think they'd have deigned to sign Beirne when he was being released by Leinster. But once Scarlets developed him to a very high standard they couldn't wait to get their greasy paws all over him. Loughman just happened by chance really. They signed him as emergency cover and then realised he was actually very good. I don't think they'd have signed him on a permanent deal from the start with a view to developing him. Oliver is just being used as squad filler when he'd actually be their best openside if they invested in him.

At least Ulster and Connacht have the right idea, not being above taking on guys who didn't quite make it at Leinster and trying to get them to a new level.

To be fair Munster took Conway and Jones and made them international players.

[leinsterforever]

Yeah, I think there is a bit of entitlement with Munster. I don't think they'd have deigned to sign Beirne when he was being released by Leinster. But once Scarlets developed him to a very high standard they couldn't wait to get their greasy paws all over him. Loughman just happened by chance really. They signed him as emergency cover and then realised he was actually very good. I don't think they'd have signed him on a permanent deal from the start with a view to developing him. Oliver is just being used as squad filler when he'd actually be their best openside if they invested in him.

At least Ulster and Connacht have the right idea, not being above taking on guys who didn't quite make it at Leinster and trying to get them to a new level.

To be fair Munster took Conway and Jones and made them international players.

I suppose so. Although Conway was at league level already and it was more just getting lots of minutes under his belt that saw him progress. It's not really the same as taking a player who didn't even make the academy and developing them into internationals, which Connacht did with Healy and Adeolokun. Jones is so long ago I don't really remember how far along he was in his development when he moved, so can't really comment on that one.

Maybe I'm being somewhat unfair on Munster. Leinster might have a certain entitlement as well if it came to potentially taking on a player who hadn't quite made the grade at another province. The Kiwi Super Rugby franchises seem pretty humble, taking on players from each other who weren't stars and backing their coaching and gametime exposure to get the guy to a higher level.

[blockhead]

To be fair Munster took Conway and Jones and made them international players.

Pretty much the last thing Conway did in a Leinster shirt was play in a European final, and win!

[backrower8]

Once St Michael's keep producing a quota of 17 players in the extended squad then Leinster will have a chance of surviving Nucifora's onslaught.

The production line looks well stocked judging by the recent second SCT & JCT double (the only other school ever to win it more than once).

[Flash Gordon]

To be fair Munster took Conway and Jones and made them international players.

Pretty much the last thing Conway did in a Leinster shirt was play in a European final, and win!

As you probably know he was not first choice. We had Luke Fitz, Dave, Isa, Ferg and him and he was probably bottom of that pecking order. He hadn't played for Ireland up to that point either. Interestingly, Quinn Roux also played in that final and I think John Cooney was on the bench. Both players benefited from a move away and Leinster weren't really weakened (though I'd take Cooney back!!!). In those situations it's hard to argue against a move as it's good for Ireland and the player and doesn't hurt Leinster. The issue I have is that McGrath, Carbery and Murphy leaving significantly damage our ability to compete for top honours. Couple that with the loss of Isa and now Sean O'Brien and we have lost 5 high quality international players so our ability to compete is diminished - particularly when you have quality internationals like Josh and Dan out long term (and often Henshaw). While we have academy players coming through, they are not at that level yet and we haven't signed a quality NIQ for a few years.

[Ruckedtobits]

If you analyse the development pathways in Munster and Leinster you will see the real difference. Leinster start with 250 players, split evenly between their 5 geographic areas, at each age from U.16 to U.19 - that's 4 x 250 players. That produces approx. 7 Academy entrants each year and approx 12 into sub-Academy. So 1000 players in the system constantly gets you an output of approx. 20, of whom about 5 go onto Professional contracts in Ireland. (250 annual new entrants produce output of 5 pros i.e. 2%)

Munster have about 45% of Players that Leinster have. However, they start streaming them later and not nearly as effectively. Finally, IMO, in Munster they don't integrate their Academy players into senior Squad training nearly enough.

For Ulster and Munster Academies to improve seriously, they need to:

1. Improve the quality of Academy staffers;
2. Negotiate additional access to School & Club under-age players of 16 & 17;
3. Focus their Professional Coaches time with under-age and Academy players on skills not S&C.

If both Provinces can recruit real talented Skills coaches to their Academies, improvement in output and quantity will happen in 2/3 years and regularly thereafter.

The older forum members will remember an Ulster Senior Coach who came through the Schools system to the top job. Brian McLaughlin. Older Munster readers will remember a Schools Coach who went through to the very top and developed young playees before they could spell Academy. Declan Kidney was his name.

They're out there but you've got to work hard to find them.

Some of you may be interested in these views :

https://www.irishnews.com/sport/rugbyun ... /-1262007/

[Blueberry]

If you analyse the development pathways in Munster and Leinster you will see the real difference. Leinster start with 250 players, split evenly between their 5 geographic areas, at each age from U.16 to U.19 - that's 4 x 250 players. That produces approx. 7 Academy entrants each year and approx 12 into sub-Academy. So 1000 players in the system constantly gets you an output of approx. 20, of whom about 5 go onto Professional contracts in Ireland. (250 annual new entrants produce output of 5 pros i.e. 2%)

Munster have about 45% of Players that Leinster have. However, they start streaming them later and not nearly as effectively. Finally, IMO, in Munster they don't integrate their Academy players into senior Squad training nearly enough.

For Ulster and Munster Academies to improve seriously, they need to:

1. Improve the quality of Academy staffers;
2. Negotiate additional access to School & Club under-age players of 16 & 17;
3. Focus their Professional Coaches time with under-age and Academy players on skills not S&C.

If both Provinces can recruit real talented Skills coaches to their Academies, improvement in output and quantity will happen in 2/3 years and regularly thereafter.

The older forum members will remember an Ulster Senior Coach who came through the Schools system to the top job. Brian McLaughlin. Older Munster readers will remember a Schools Coach who went through to the very top and developed young playees before they could spell Academy. Declan Kidney was his name.

They're out there but you've got to work hard to find them.

Some of you may be interested in these views :

https://www.irishnews.com/sport/rugbyun ... /-1262007/

Very interesting post and some great info - in many ways it sums up the problem.

It leaves the big question though - why are the IRFU not focusing their energies on the necessary strategies to improve the throughput from Munster and Ulster's academies and instead happy to allow Munster and Ulster to fill up on overseas players and pilfering from Leinster ?

We are currently in a situation where opportunities for young Munster and Ulster players to play at the top level is diminished (because they are being blocked by saffers, kiwis and stolen Leinster Players) and you damage the prospects of the greatest club team in Europe over the last decade, Leinster !! It's sheer stupidity of the highest order. The driving force - Nucifora who doesn't understand the Irish system ? Pressure from Munster and Ulster ? A refusal from Munster (and to a lesser extent Ulster) to accept that they are way behind Leinster and may have to accept a few years in the wilderness to change tack and bring through and grow their own talent ? Probably a bit of all of the above ??

[blockhead]

If you analyse the development pathways in Munster and Leinster you will see the real difference. Leinster start with 250 players, split evenly between their 5 geographic areas, at each age from U.16 to U.19 - that's 4 x 250 players. That produces approx. 7 Academy entrants each year and approx 12 into sub-Academy. So 1000 players in the system constantly gets you an output of approx. 20, of whom about 5 go onto Professional contracts in Ireland. (250 annual new entrants produce output of 5 pros i.e. 2%)

Munster have about 45% of Players that Leinster have. However, they start streaming them later and not nearly as effectively. Finally, IMO, in Munster they don't integrate their Academy players into senior Squad training nearly enough.

For Ulster and Munster Academies to improve seriously, they need to:

1. Improve the quality of Academy staffers;
2. Negotiate additional access to School & Club under-age players of 16 & 17;
3. Focus their Professional Coaches time with under-age and Academy players on skills not S&C.

If both Provinces can recruit real talented Skills coaches to their Academies, improvement in output and quantity will happen in 2/3 years and regularly thereafter.

The older forum members will remember an Ulster Senior Coach who came through the Schools system to the top job. Brian McLaughlin. Older Munster readers will remember a Schools Coach who went through to the very top and developed young playees before they could spell Academy. Declan Kidney was his name.

They're out there but you've got to work hard to find them.

Some of you may be interested in these views :

https://www.irishnews.com/sport/rugbyun ... /-1262007/

Very interesting post and some great info - in many ways it sums up the problem.

It leaves the big question though - why are the IRFU not focusing their energies on the necessary strategies to improve the throughput from Munster and Ulster's academies and instead happy to allow Munster and Ulster to fill up on overseas players and pilfering from Leinster ?

We are currently in a situation where opportunities for young Munster and Ulster players to play at the top level is diminished (because they are being blocked by saffers, kiwis and stolen Leinster Players) and you damage the prospects of the greatest club team in Europe over the last decade, Leinster !! It's sheer stupidity of the highest order. The driving force - Nucifora who doesn't understand the Irish system ? Pressure from Munster and Ulster ? A refusal from Munster (and to a lesser extent Ulster) to accept that they are way behind Leinster and may have to accept a few years in the wilderness to change tack and bring through and grow their own talent ? Probably a bit of all of the above ??

Don't forget the money angle in all of this.
Munster owe quite a bit of it to the IRFU and were struggling to pay it back.
By investing in them even more the IRFU might get it back quicker, or not at all.

[Flash Gordon]

If you analyse the development pathways in Munster and Leinster you will see the real difference. Leinster start with 250 players, split evenly between their 5 geographic areas, at each age from U.16 to U.19 - that's 4 x 250 players. That produces approx. 7 Academy entrants each year and approx 12 into sub-Academy. So 1000 players in the system constantly gets you an output of approx. 20, of whom about 5 go onto Professional contracts in Ireland. (250 annual new entrants produce output of 5 pros i.e. 2%)

Munster have about 45% of Players that Leinster have. However, they start streaming them later and not nearly as effectively. Finally, IMO, in Munster they don't integrate their Academy players into senior Squad training nearly enough.

For Ulster and Munster Academies to improve seriously, they need to:

1. Improve the quality of Academy staffers;
2. Negotiate additional access to School & Club under-age players of 16 & 17;
3. Focus their Professional Coaches time with under-age and Academy players on skills not S&C.

If both Provinces can recruit real talented Skills coaches to their Academies, improvement in output and quantity will happen in 2/3 years and regularly thereafter.

The older forum members will remember an Ulster Senior Coach who came through the Schools system to the top job. Brian McLaughlin. Older Munster readers will remember a Schools Coach who went through to the very top and developed young playees before they could spell Academy. Declan Kidney was his name.

They're out there but you've got to work hard to find them.

Some of you may be interested in these views :

https://www.irishnews.com/sport/rugbyun ... /-1262007/

Very good post. I do think that Ulster schoolboy playing numbers are similar to ours.

To add, when I coached minis from U-7 to schools the branch were in all the time briefing the coaches on building blocks. We would play teams from Munster and they would send some big lump up the middle repeatedly while were telling the kids to look for space and distribute. That was fine when the one big lump of a lad was bigger than everyone else but eventually the other kids caught up and one set of players had skills and technique, the other did not.

I saw those building blocks continue through schools when my lads played through to academy selection.

This is the the issue for the other provinces, it's going to take 10 years to plug the gap.

[riocard911]

Case in point, Bill Johnston, who three years ago was the "next big thing" and who's then promising career with Munster has been left to wither on the vine:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 65695.html

Rather than laud one example - why not look at the overall picture... https://dementedmole.com/2018/12/29/mai ... #more-6854

Great read. Mole on the money again. Thx, Doc.

[ronk]

Ulster have improved at developing players, you see that in the teams being picked. It was forced by necessity and a developer coach. They also signed players but it should not go unnoticed that they’re having a good season off the back of giving a load of young players chances.

Munster were forced to develop props because of pushback and they have done so (not really through the academy). None of their props were bought in ready made, Loughman was close though. They don’t persevere anywhere else. We can talk about school numbers and academy coaching all day long but eventually you have to give guys a series of chances so they can adapt.

They’ll keep signing players even when they have great options. Munster had 4 scrum halves so they signed 2. Ulster have made a super find in Eric O’Sullivan, he’s doing great for his age when there aren’t so many young loose heads around. He’s going to sit behind McGrath now, and Jack moved for game-time.

[dropkick]

If you analyse the development pathways in Munster and Leinster you will see the real difference. Leinster start with 250 players, split evenly between their 5 geographic areas, at each age from U.16 to U.19 - that's 4 x 250 players. That produces approx. 7 Academy entrants each year and approx 12 into sub-Academy. So 1000 players in the system constantly gets you an output of approx. 20, of whom about 5 go onto Professional contracts in Ireland. (250 annual new entrants produce output of 5 pros i.e. 2%)

Munster have about 45% of Players that Leinster have. However, they start streaming them later and not nearly as effectively. Finally, IMO, in Munster they don't integrate their Academy players into senior Squad training nearly enough.

For Ulster and Munster Academies to improve seriously, they need to:

1. Improve the quality of Academy staffers;
2. Negotiate additional access to School & Club under-age players of 16 & 17;
3. Focus their Professional Coaches time with under-age and Academy players on skills not S&C.

If both Provinces can recruit real talented Skills coaches to their Academies, improvement in output and quantity will happen in 2/3 years and regularly thereafter.

The older forum members will remember an Ulster Senior Coach who came through the Schools system to the top job. Brian McLaughlin. Older Munster readers will remember a Schools Coach who went through to the very top and developed young playees before they could spell Academy. Declan Kidney was his name.

They're out there but you've got to work hard to find them.

Some of you may be interested in these views :

https://www.irishnews.com/sport/rugbyun ... /-1262007/

Very good post. I do think that Ulster schoolboy playing numbers are similar to ours.

To add, when I coached minis from U-7 to schools the branch were in all the time briefing the coaches on building blocks. We would play teams from Munster and they would send some big lump up the middle repeatedly while were telling the kids to look for space and distribute. That was fine when the one big lump of a lad was bigger than everyone else but eventually the other kids caught up and one set of players had skills and technique, the other did not.

I saw those building blocks continue through schools when my lads played through to academy selection.

This is the the issue for the other provinces, it's going to take 10 years to plug the gap.

There are signs that lessons have been learned. The Munster players in the U20s were technically very good which means they've been getting good coaching for a few years at least.
Theres also the signs of more talent streams opening up. All the players from West Cork, Kerry, Waterford etc is a new development.


Munster have a lot of catching up to do but as I said, things are starting to look up. Leinsters success in bringing through players has more than likely forced Munster to get their act together. Nothing like a bit of competition to drive standards higher.


I'd agree about not given youth a chance. Theres no appetite for that in Munster from what I see. No appetite either for changing the style of play. The goal is to make semi finals of the Heineken cup and once that's achieved everyone is happy.

[riocard911]

"The goal is to make semi finals of the Heineken cup and once that's achieved everyone is happy."

Well, if they get obliterated in the Ricoh - which, IMO, is an eminent possibility - they may have to question that line of thinking.......

[joooooe]

Case in point, Bill Johnston, who three years ago was the "next big thing" and who's then promising career with Munster has been left to wither on the vine:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 65695.html

Rather than laud one example - why not look at the overall picture... https://dementedmole.com/2018/12/29/mai ... #more-6854

Great read. Mole on the money again. Thx, Doc.

I think if I could sign one player from another province for Leinster it would be Johnston. Yeah, sure, you could argue for Stockdale or Murray or other pie in the sky thinking but imagine the joy of making a success of something where Munster have so obviously failed (again).

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Himself and Calvin Nash are really being wasted down there, don't get it at all.

[leinsterforever]

Himself and Calvin Nash are really being wasted down there, don't get it at all.

Yeah. Has Nash got a look in at all this season? Taute was on the bench for one game a few weeks ago. Like, what's the point? Taute's shot - and he's leaving at the end of the season!

Maybe Nash should look for a move to Ulster or Connacht.

[D4surfer]

I was at the A match in Donnybrook earlier in the season. Johnson was easily the best back on the pitch. Scott Penny stood out as the best forward by some distance in the same match.