The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Five.

[Oldschool]

I note a lot of magnanimity toward Saracens here. I can’t share it to be honest. I like McCall, I like Owen Farrell, they’ve a huge number of players I admire but their financial “idiosyncrasies” are a bit much for me. Everything they win comes with an asterisk because of that

No salary cap in the European Cup, as far as I'm aware. I know you can go backwards down the chain of events and point out that they have to qualify from their league, which has a salary cap, but I think that's looking for an excuse, given that their academy has produced a reasonable number of their own players and they have made good, efficient signings. They are closer to Clermont than Toulon in how they've developed as a team, in my opinion.

Yeah but it's still Saracens in'it.
People believe what they want to believe.
Why let the truth get in the way?

[Raydollard]

Saracens were better in general on the day and deserved the win. But it could have been different.

For the future though if we are to remain the top club in Europe, we need to purchase a few top players in places where we are really weak. We need a full back and two half backs pronto. We will also need a second row soon enough. We don’t need too much but we have to splash some cash now.

[Oldschool]

Saracens were better in general on the day and deserved the win. But it could have been different.

For the future though if we are to remain the top club in Europe, we need to purchase a few top players in places where we are really weak. We need a full back and two half backs pronto. We will also need a second row soon enough. We don’t need too much but we have to splash some cash now.

Or bite the bullet and go through a period of transition
It's worth noting that FB apart we had/have adequate succession planning in place.
RK has consistently proved he's special.
Saracens didn't even try to expose him.
Spilt milk but both Madigan and Carbery could have been adequate options.
RK going will leave the biggest hole in our backline.
It's time for "Mildly.." to update his FB going forward and identify the next Messiah.
For what it's worth we're facing transition, no way will Nucifor wear us recruiting a FB when we've no heir apparent for Leinster never mind Ireland.

[Peg Leg]

Saracens are immense. I thought they'd be too powerful for us but the game didn't pan out as I thought. To have possession with 39 mins gone and holding a thoroughly deserved 7 point lead to going in even was a hammer blow. Ringrose butchered an opportunity early in the second half. When we didn't score there it felt like a massive win for Saracens. Ringrose has been superb all season however.

The coaches need to shoulder w lot of the responsibility. The use of the bench was criminal and oddly similar to Ireland. Max Deegan has been playing so well in 2019 and yet he sits down for 74 mins. The game was over when he came on. We didn't use any of our back subs. HOS I can somewhat see but if you don't have confidence in Ross Byrne potentially changing a game we are losing, what does that say about how he's viewed? Leinster fans talk up how much they love Byrne but do the management really see the same? Why is Sexton never subbed or at least moved to accommodate another fly hakf for Leinster and Ireland? If ROL is not a game changing 23 then find someone else in your squad. You can't go to a final, see Your team slowly suffocated off the park, and give 4 players a combined 6 minutes, all to one player

Don't see it like that with regards to the subs. We're a bit weaker in depth this season than we were last season. It's partly due to form, partly due to recruitment, partly due to the 'for the good of Irish rugby' guff, partly due to competition restrictions, and partly due to talent level in the squad.

Obviously Hughie O'Sullivan was a 'break glass in case of emergency' selection on the bench. He's a 21 year old, 2nd year Academy player who spent most of his agegrade competitive rugby at fullback. LMcG was playing with both knees heavily strapped, JGP is injured [and can't play if Lowe and Fardy are playing] and Nick McCarthy missed 4 months in the middle of the season with injury, was excluded from the EPCR squad and has decided that his future lies in Munster ... there's very little the coaches can do about that.

With regards to the outside back sub [No23], Ferg ruled himself out with his ban. Regrets, I had a few. Tomane has been mostly poor [with a couple of good games thrown in], and certainly hasn't done enough to merit even a discussion about being in yesterday's 23-man squad, never mind the starting XV. AB+ is injured and done for the season; he was playing well, but is a one-position man at pro level, even if he played games at outside centre and fullback at agegrade. To my eyes, it really came down to a choice between DK and Locko.

Locko has had a solid season, but not an awful lot better than that. His value lay in the fact that he provided cover across the entire three-quarterline: he has started big games this season at inside centre [against Toulouse in January], outside centre [against Munster in October] and wing [against Munster in December]. That's real value, because selectors have to allow cover for injury on their bench. If Ringer or Henshaw went down in the first twenty minutes, having DK on the bench – who has had a stronger 2019 than Locko – is f*ck all use to us. You end up with Larmour playing at outside centre for an hour, which would be a huge issue for us tactically ... he doesn't know the nuances of defending his own channel, he can't manage the inside-outside defensive alignment and he can't pass like a centre, nullifying a wide threat.

Thought that Sexton played pretty well and don't see what Ross Byrne would do differently or better. It doesn't make any sense to me to take off your outhalf, your captain, and the reigning World Rugby IPOTY when the chips are down and you need big plays. Sexton is Mr. Big Play.

Ross is a methodical, well-drilled and mentally strong young outhalf, but he's not a game-changer at this point. Reider has started a couple of games at No10 this season, has finished others there, and provides something off the bench that Ross doesn't ... but he hadn't kicked a goal in his senior first grade career before this season, and his place-kicking percentage is in the low-to-mid 60s.

We don't have the same depth as we had last season. Isa retired, Carbery moved to Munster, Jordi moved to Ulster. Tomane has been a hapless replacement for Isa, we haven't replaced Carbery, and while Jack Conan has surged back into form and makes up for Jordi's departure, the loss of Leavy and JVDF vastly outweighs the return of Sean O'Brien, who is half the player he was at his best.

But I actually expect us to rebound well next season:
- JGP, Fardy and Lowe will be able to play in the same team;
- Deegan, Doris and Penny will be physically stronger and more experienced in the backrow, as will Jack Dunne in the second row – all four of them are test level talents [in my opinion], and this season they've each got more gametime than would have been expected;
- Ronan Kelleher is going to push past Bryan Byrne and start contesting James Tracy's spot;
- Conor O'Brien just needs games to build experience to start pushing for European matchday squads, because the talent is all there. I expect we'll be looking at him as a No23 option in big games - plays either centre position as a pro, played on the wing for the Irish U20s and Clontarf, was an Irish Youths outhalf and has a huge left boot
- Frawley [11 games] and Hughie O'Sullivan [14 games] will have benefitted enormously from the amount of exposure they have got this season as academy players, and will be more tested and reliable options. O'Sullivan was pushed into the deep-end this year, and while he didn't swim, he didn't sink either ... he floated. He'll be better for it next year.
- Tommy O'Brien will [hopefully] be fit to play, which should be the start of a serious career: he was a blue chip U20 and has the right stuff.

Onwards and upwards!

That is a great post.

[riocard911]

on a last note, with ten minutes to go and ten points down, any other team would have conceded at least one try to Saracens, IMO, as they were banging on the gate very loudly. Our fellas though didn't buckle. The game as a contest was essentially over and yet they defended the Leinster try line, as if their lives depended on it (and even tried to play their way out of their 22, which was impossible as the offside rule had been abandoned by Garces and his assistants at that stage). They can be proud of themselves; they didn't crumple, but kept fighting to the end. And we can be proud of them too.

[Blueberry]

on a last note, with ten minutes to go and ten points down, any other team would have conceded at least one try to Saracens, IMO, as they were banging on the gate very loudly. Our fellas though didn't buckle. The game as a contest was essentially over and yet they defended the Leinster try line, as if their lives depended on it (and even tried to play their way out of their 22, which was impossible as the offside rule had been abandoned by Garces and his assistants at that stage). They can be proud of themselves; they didn't crumple, but kept fighting to the end. And we can be proud of them too.

Totally agree - thought the lads were immense here, knackered, shot, bullied and yes struggling with the offside issues but kept fighting to the bitter end. It was amazing to watch and testament to the attitude in the squad. Will stand to us.

[desperado]

Looking back, soon close - a few ifs and buts and we would have been the ones strangling the last 10 minutes out of the game. Saracens are some team though, and hats off to Mark McCall.

People are asking why Luke did not kick it out a 40. Because we usually score or at least inflict pressure from that move.


Riocard10- happy now? The mocker god's weren't. It had worked for 4 stars! Only in jest anyways, fansites for banter and silly traditions.

Just back from Newcastle. Haven't watched a recording yet. But on the above point; 'usually score or a least inflict pressure'' ... There was nothing usual about yesterday. I've been lucky to be at all 5 finals and a few of our away semi losses; but for me nothing before compared with that game for pure ferocity, atmosphere, tenseness. When Luke got the ball with 40 on the clock everyone said to themselves or out loud.. kick it out. It was such a battle, and had taken 33 mins to squeeze 10 pts and be in the lead; the 100% right thing to do was go in at 10-3 regroup and start off. It gave them such a boost to be level at half time. Fair play to Saracens. We''ll be stronger for this I'm sure. Someone asked where the stadium clocks were - they were a ground level at opposite corners. The big screen was a bit of a joke. It was up high at the opposite end to the Gallowgate where we were; but suspended in the corner at right angles to the pitch! i.e right angles to the try line - hence Garces viewing TMO decisions on small screens.

[D2 Blue]

on a last note, with ten minutes to go and ten points down, any other team would have conceded at least one try to Saracens, IMO, as they were banging on the gate very loudly. Our fellas though didn't buckle. The game as a contest was essentially over and yet they defended the Leinster try line, as if their lives depended on it (and even tried to play their way out of their 22, which was impossible as the offside rule had been abandoned by Garces and his assistants at that stage). They can be proud of themselves; they didn't crumple, but kept fighting to the end. And we can be proud of them too.

Agree with you.
After taking 24 hrs+ to sulk and blame everyone possible, I'm ready to be more glass half full about it. The lads played their hearts out right to the end. It was clear once they went 10 pts down that it wasn't going to be our day. They never let their heads drop and it was great to see the line wasn't breached even if they couldn't get out of their 22. They just seemed to be a few % off where they were last year and were unfortunate to come up against a team who looked unstoppable all year (just like Leinster last year). I can't think of another team that could have stopped them yesterday.
The two biggest disappointments for me were the poor decision mking at crucial times that i dont need to highlight and the absolute failure to apply the laws on offside and taking out players without the ball. But overall, the experience of getting to the final will benefit the younger players and hopefully we can get back to this stage next year. And as always the support wasfantastic.

[ronk]

. They just seemed to be a few % off where they were last year .

Yes. I don't think enough is being made of the extent we're being pulled apart to feed other provinces.

Plenty of effort from players and fans, Nucifora was willing to weaken us. Has the benefit to other provinces outweighed the costs to us and the missed opportunity to grow the game on our success.

[Blueberry]

. They just seemed to be a few % off where they were last year .

Yes. I don't think enough is being made of the extent we're being pulled apart to feed other provinces.

Plenty of effort from players and fans, Nucifora was willing to weaken us. Has the benefit to other provinces outweighed the costs to us and the missed opportunity to grow the game on our success.

It is at the business end of the season against an exceptional team like Saracens that the little cuts being made dig deepest and can make the difference. Ultimately having one province dominating Europe and winning HCUPS is not an issue for me as this success at European level will drive the national team forward.If Ireland become largely Leinster so what as long as the results are there. When you have something great and successful like Leinster you at all costs support it and drive it forward, it is the key to Ireland success yet this is not happening. You always reward success and never failure, it never ends well but politics I have no doubt are getting in the way with an under the surface pressure to lift Munster and Ulster. We will see how things develop but I am worried the Rubicon was crossed with Carbery and other moves like Murphy and McGrath suggest it will continue. Something I suspect we will have to fight all the way.

[olaf the fat]

Thats the problem of having a good academy system, players have to leave to get opportunity. We are producing players in positions every couple of years at most, for careers that may last over a decade. Most have their progression blocked by guys slightly older, or by being leap frogged by a youngster - in a sport where game time is so important.

Jordi and Jack went north to start, not sit on the bench. Joey, was forced alright, but must have seen his immediate future as fighting it out with Ross Byrne & Frawley to sit on the bench for big games. At least they are being directed to help other provinces and ultimately the IRFU, not just heading off the France and UK.

[wise7]

[quote][/quote]
suisse wrote:
''Saracens are immense. I thought they'd be too powerful for us but the game didn't pan out as I thought. To have possession with 39 mins gone and holding a thoroughly deserved 7 point lead to going in even was a hammer blow. Ringrose butchered an opportunity early in the second half. When we didn't score there it felt like a massive win for Saracens. Ringrose has been superb all season however.

The coaches need to shoulder w lot of the responsibility. The use of the bench was criminal and oddly similar to Ireland. Max Deegan has been playing so well in 2019 and yet he sits down for 74 mins. The game was over when he came on. We didn't use any of our back subs. HOS I can somewhat see but if you don't have confidence in Ross Byrne potentially changing a game we are losing, what does that say about how he's viewed? Leinster fans talk up how much they love Byrne but do the management really see the same? Why is Sexton never subbed or at least moved to accommodate another fly hakf for Leinster and Ireland? If ROL is not a game changing 23 then find someone else in your squad. You can't go to a final, see Your team slowly suffocated off the park, and give 4 players a combined 6 minutes, all to one player''

Fair question as to why Ross Byrne wasn't brought on in second half. Leinster have lost just 3 European matches in past 3 seasons and on each occasion Sexton stayed on for the full 80 with Byrne remaining unused on the bench. In the 17 European Cup games Byrne has played in (starts and off the bench) over the same period there were no matches lost. So he can be more than trusted and indeed expected to bring something positive to the outcome.

[Blueberry]

To get to the level of performance to win HCUPs and perform at the elite national level you need a situation where you have test class players two or three deep to push each other forward. McGrath and Healy should be duking it out for first choice, Murphy should be forcing his way back in with exceptional performance, Carbery should be pushing J10 or Rob Kearney for the start depending on your positional view of him. This pressure pushes teams forwards and with the attritional nature of the game guys will gets starts regardless. Murphy for example I have no doubt would have started ahead of O'Brien on Sat in Newcastle. I totally understand the logic of what is happening but it has an impact and the question being asked is whether ultimately this is the best way forward. For what it's worth I don't think it is.

[olaf the fat]

on a last note, with ten minutes to go and ten points down, any other team would have conceded at least one try to Saracens, IMO, as they were banging on the gate very loudly. Our fellas though didn't buckle. The game as a contest was essentially over and yet they defended the Leinster try line, as if their lives depended on it (and even tried to play their way out of their 22, which was impossible as the offside rule had been abandoned by Garces and his assistants at that stage). They can be proud of themselves; they didn't crumple, but kept fighting to the end. And we can be proud of them too.

Very important thing to take away from that game. Saracens had pushed a team to breaking, and we didnt. We conceded a penalty and try during our yellow card period and then went down slugging away but with out conceding any more.

Saracens will know that too, bar some fantastic defending coupled with no offside line, they would have been in serious trouble going into the last 1/4. Bring them on again next year!

[desperado]

+1 100% bring em on....

[OTT]

Rewatched the game last night for my sins. At the time I felt Saracens were getting their yards a lot easier then we were but really it was just a massive 50-50 contest so that might have been my own personal tension skewing my perception at the time. Momentum is everything and we had it and gave it away and in a game like this that was enough.

I have been thinking a lot about the Luke McGrath box kick and I am really uncertain about how I feel. It is easy to say we should have put it out but this team score points in those minutes, we have killed teams in those minutes and on Saturday it went against us. If we get a penalty up in the Saracens half we go in 13-3 up and its major advantage Leinster. Now I think the kick was poor enough but I understand why we did it, we did it because that is how we play. I thought Luke had a good game generally I see some other posters saying he was a bit labourious, Saracens were flying in off their feet the whole time Mako Vunipola and Itoje must have superman capes on under their jerseys our ball was not great and McGrath was under a lot of pressure consistently.

I don't know about the criticism of the coaches. This was not a game which we lost because we did not turn up like the Scarlets pro 12 semi final two years ago. Both teams turned up and we lost the arm wrestle. In key moments certain choices went against us eg Ringrose not passing out the line early in the second half. Larmour had one or two moments on another day that would have ended in try's of the season but we got nothing. Tiny things. That is sport sometimes we get the luck and sometimes we don't. Again well done to Saracens a superb team who beat a superb team.

[olaf the fat]

To get to the level of performance to win HCUPs and perform at the elite national level you need a situation where you have test class players two or three deep to push each other forward. McGrath and Healy should be duking it out for first choice, Murphy should be forcing his way back in with exceptional performance, Carbery should be pushing J10 or Rob Kearney for the start depending on your positional view of him. This pressure pushes teams forwards and with the attritional nature of the game guys will gets starts regardless. Murphy for example I have no doubt would have started ahead of O'Brien on Sat in Newcastle. I totally understand the logic of what is happening but it has an impact and the question being asked is whether ultimately this is the best way forward. For what it's worth I don't think it is.

This time last year Murphy would have been looking to this year competing with back rows SOB, Leavy, Josh, Ruddock & Fardy - and Seanie probably being guided with starts to get ready for Japan - while at the same time thinking about being judged against Stander, POM and also Henderson for a place in the RWC. Now the choice of regular game time or fingers crossed you get a chance at Leinster? We, with our fair enough Leinster fan bias may not be happy about it, but it is these guys day job as well.

The IRFU will view be happy if they have a test quality player starting in each of the provinces - not 4 competing of one spot week in week out. They can point to 3 irish teams in the Euro 1/4 finals, 2 in the semis, and one in the final as being at that required level of performance already.

I do really get what you are saying, and it hurts our chances to lose great players - but I'm not sure there is a better way for our system.

[cormac]

Rewatched the game last night for my sins. At the time I felt Saracens were getting their yards a lot easier then we were but really it was just a massive 50-50 contest so that might have been my own personal tension skewing my perception at the time. Momentum is everything and we had it and gave it away and in a game like this that was enough.

I have been thinking a lot about the Luke McGrath box kick and I am really uncertain about how I feel. It is easy to say we should have put it out but this team score points in those minutes, we have killed teams in those minutes and on Saturday it went against us. If we get a penalty up in the Saracens half we go in 13-3 up and its major advantage Leinster. Now I think the kick was poor enough but I understand why we did it, we did it because that is how we play. I thought Luke had a good game generally I see some other posters saying he was a bit labourious, Saracens were flying in off their feet the whole time Mako Vunipola and Itoje must have superman capes on under their jerseys our ball was not great and McGrath was under a lot of pressure consistently.

I don't know about the criticism of the coaches. This was not a game which we lost because we did not turn up like the Scarlets pro 12 semi final two years ago. Both teams turned up and we lost the arm wrestle. In key moments certain choices went against us eg Ringrose not passing out the line early in the second half. Larmour had one or two moments on another day that would have ended in try's of the season but we got nothing. Tiny things. That is sport sometimes we get the luck and sometimes we don't. Again well done to Saracens a superb team who beat a superb team.

While I understand that we always think we can get a score after the clock goes past 40 minutes, I'm not sure I've ever seen us do it by kicking the ball back to the opposition.

[riocard911]

Yeah, but the thing is, is that the plan initially worked. They took possession of the ball and our pack got it bàck by means of fabulous counterrucking. Ryan ploughs forward but unfortunately gets isolated and pinged on the ground for lack of support. From the subsequent line out deep in blue territory comes the try.

[Blueberry]

To get to the level of performance to win HCUPs and perform at the elite national level you need a situation where you have test class players two or three deep to push each other forward. McGrath and Healy should be duking it out for first choice, Murphy should be forcing his way back in with exceptional performance, Carbery should be pushing J10 or Rob Kearney for the start depending on your positional view of him. This pressure pushes teams forwards and with the attritional nature of the game guys will gets starts regardless. Murphy for example I have no doubt would have started ahead of O'Brien on Sat in Newcastle. I totally understand the logic of what is happening but it has an impact and the question being asked is whether ultimately this is the best way forward. For what it's worth I don't think it is.

This time last year Murphy would have been looking to this year competing with back rows SOB, Leavy, Josh, Ruddock & Fardy - and Seanie probably being guided with starts to get ready for Japan - while at the same time thinking about being judged against Stander, POM and also Henderson for a place in the RWC. Now the choice of regular game time or fingers crossed you get a chance at Leinster? We, with our fair enough Leinster fan bias may not be happy about it, but it is these guys day job as well.

The IRFU will view be happy if they have a test quality player starting in each of the provinces - not 4 competing of one spot week in week out. They can point to 3 irish teams in the Euro 1/4 finals, 2 in the semis, and one in the final as being at that required level of performance already.

I do really get what you are saying, and it hurts our chances to lose great players - but I'm not sure there is a better way for our system.

An endless debate I agree and there is no easy answer here. Of course we have a bias but I just have a belief that the unique thing we have here in Ireland is the provincial nature of our teams (for the most part) with the local lads playing in their local province, I think it's the magic dust that gives you the extra 1% if you're scrapping in a crazy game with tiny margins. Dilute it, which is happening and I think it's dangerous and Leinster are so far ahead at the moment of the Irish teams in terms of player production that messing with that is also dangerous as allowing Leinster to filter the players as they see fit and build a test grade team (which I think is entirely possible) for me is the greatest chance of major Ireland success at the moment. Yes plough every support into Muster and Ulster to grow their academies and bring through what they can, they can and will make a contribution but never at the expense of Leinster. You don't mess with the engine that is the Leinster production line. Winning is a habit and if Leinster are winning the chances are Ireland will too. That for me is the question and also look at the coaching tickets, right now for me the players in Leinster get the best coaching, it's test grade, your very best players can only benefit from this. We can talk about this endlessly of course and it won't change a thing, I'm just uncomfortable at the moment with what's going on and I don't think the Ireland drop off in the Six Nations and what I suspect (god I hope I'm wrong) is going to be an underwhelming world cup (in comparison to where we were a year ago in terms of expectations) is unconnected.