The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Five.

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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby Twist » November 5th, 2019, 2:03 pm

Logorrhea wrote:
curates_egg wrote:Does Sarries cheating and sanction mean we actually won?


There is no salary cap for any teams in the HEC so no cheating. They won it fair and square.


Part of the competition is that you have to qualify. They qualified illegally so they most certainly did not win fair & square
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby Aussiedub » November 5th, 2019, 2:16 pm

Logorrhea wrote:
curates_egg wrote:Does Sarries cheating and sanction mean we actually won?


There is no salary cap for any teams in the HEC so no cheating. They won it fair and square.


If they had abided by the salary cap in the Premiership they wouldn't have been able to put out the team they played against us - eg Liam Williams for example would have been unavailable
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby Logorrhea » November 5th, 2019, 3:13 pm

Aussiedub wrote:If they had abided by the salary cap in the Premiership they wouldn't have been able to put out the team they played against us - eg Liam Williams for example would have been unavailable


Twist wrote:Part of the competition is that you have to qualify. They qualified illegally so they most certainly did not win fair & square


Those rules are set by the premiership and they will be punished by the premiership. They are not rules set by Europe. They wont be found to have cheated in any European competition.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby LeinsterLeader » November 5th, 2019, 3:27 pm

I'd be grateful if someone could explain the following to me (as I can't get my head around it)......

If they are say 2m over the salary cap how do they they get back under the cap straightaway? or do they not have to do it straightaway, can they wait until the existing contracts finish and then be bound over to stay under the cap in future?
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby tingman » November 5th, 2019, 3:36 pm

LeinsterLeader wrote:I'd be grateful if someone could explain the following to me (as I can't get my head around it)......

If they are say 2m over the salary cap how do they they get back under the cap straightaway? or do they not have to do it straightaway, can they wait until the existing contracts finish and then be bound over to stay under the cap in future?


Open to correction here but my guess is they would be made rectify the situation with immediate effect - otherwise it would serve to compound what is now deemed
to be an unfair advantage.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby LeinsterLeader » November 5th, 2019, 3:39 pm

tingman wrote:
LeinsterLeader wrote:I'd be grateful if someone could explain the following to me (as I can't get my head around it)......

If they are say 2m over the salary cap how do they they get back under the cap straightaway? or do they not have to do it straightaway, can they wait until the existing contracts finish and then be bound over to stay under the cap in future?


Open to correction here but my guess is they would be made rectify the situation with immediate effect - otherwise it would serve to compound what is now deemed
to be an unfair advantage.

Okay, but any thoughts on how they might do that? would we we talking about terminating contracts?
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby Dave Cahill » November 5th, 2019, 3:40 pm

Even if they did cheat to get to the competition, AND the EPRC decide that they did, they'll just void their win - we won't be given it. Glasgow and Munster were equally damaged by their financial doping - Glasgow lost to them three times!
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby tingman » November 5th, 2019, 3:49 pm

LeinsterLeader wrote:
tingman wrote:
LeinsterLeader wrote:I'd be grateful if someone could explain the following to me (as I can't get my head around it)......

If they are say 2m over the salary cap how do they they get back under the cap straightaway? or do they not have to do it straightaway, can they wait until the existing contracts finish and then be bound over to stay under the cap in future?


Open to correction here but my guess is they would be made rectify the situation with immediate effect - otherwise it would serve to compound what is now deemed
to be an unfair advantage.

Okay, but any thoughts on how they might do that? would we we talking about terminating contracts?


Its being appealed but this is potentially a hornets nest - if a recent signing came in with them already deemed over the cap is this contract null & void?.....i'm happy to pass over to our learned legal friends!
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby Dave Cahill » November 5th, 2019, 3:59 pm

They'd simply have to keep to the terms of the players contracts but couldn't register them for any competitions. They would then most likely attempt to shift them out on loan if they could get someone to take on some of the cost. For example, when Finegan was (on loan) here Newcastle were paying a good chunk of his salary
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby Logorrhea » November 5th, 2019, 4:00 pm

tingman wrote:Its being appealed but this is potentially a hornets nest - if a recent signing came in with them already deemed over the cap is this contract null & void?.....i'm happy to pass over to our learned legal friends!


Didn't hey find themselves over the cap due to the additional arrangements they had with players? I thought their base contracts were within the cap but the fake companies set up for each player have been identified as additional earnings. I imagine those arrangements will need to be dissolved but not sure if that would allow the players to declare their whole contract void. Doubt it will.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby blockhead » November 5th, 2019, 4:04 pm

The other PRL clubs are looking to have their recent titles removed from the record book.
Nothing to do with Europe though.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby cormac » November 5th, 2019, 4:16 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:They'd simply have to keep to the terms of the players contracts but couldn't register them for any competitions. They would then most likely attempt to shift them out on loan if they could get someone to take on some of the cost. For example, when Finegan was (on loan) here Newcastle were paying a good chunk of his salary


Newcastle still got the better end of that deal.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby curates_egg » November 5th, 2019, 4:25 pm

Jaysus, you lot are some craic!
I was only jokingly suggesting it.

However, for all the Sarries lawyers: if their Premiership title in 2018 were to be annulled (i.e. if they were found to be breaking the salary cap that season and that sanction were applied), surely they then illegitimately qualified for Europe. So how could their participation in that competition be deemed to be valid?
As for Glasgow being more affected, that's a reasonable violin to play. But, when winners are disqualified in sports, the award always goes to the next highest performer in the competition - even if they hampered other competitors. There is no other way to decide it.

I'm just back from the tailors, where they embroidered my fifth star onto this year's shirt. You can probably get some of those Chinese ones off d'internet with the 5 stars already though.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » November 5th, 2019, 4:29 pm

I wonder if there's anything to prevent the business deals being dissolved but then Nigel Wray gives out million pound wedding presents etc in ten years time.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby cormac » November 5th, 2019, 4:29 pm

curates_egg wrote:Jaysus, you lot are some craic!
I was only jokingly suggesting it.

However, for all the Sarries lawyers: if their Premiership title in 2018 were to be annulled (i.e. if they were found to be breaking the salary cap that season and that sanction were applied), surely they then illegitimately qualified for Europe. So how could their participation in that competition be deemed to be valid?
As for Glasgow being more affected, that's a reasonable violin to play. But, when winners are disqualified in sports, the award always goes to the next highest performer in the competition - even if they hampered other competitors. There is no other way to decide it.

I'm just back from the tailors, where they embroidered my fifth star onto this year's shirt. You can probably get some of those Chinese ones off d'internet with the 5 stars already though.


Well that's not true. There's now no recorded winner of the Tour de France in the years in which Lance Armstrong "won" those races.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby arsebiscuits1 » November 5th, 2019, 4:31 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I wonder if there's anything to prevent the business deals being dissolved but then Nigel Wray gives out million pound wedding presents etc in ten years time.


I hear the rate for Sarries fuel expenses has just gone up to €50 per KM and they are only permitted to travel to training via John O'Groats :lol:
He's gotten awfully fond of that brick
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby blockhead » November 5th, 2019, 4:35 pm

Chiefs CEO wants Saracens 'severely punished' for breaching rules
“I think they should be suspended," Rowe said. “They should be suspended until they can prove their squad is within the salary cap.
“I hope that Premier Rugby make them reduce their squad immediately. If I was there, I’d be saying that can’t compete until you reduce your squad and you are within the salary cap.
“They have already broken the salary cap this year because they have played three games in this year’s Premiership with the same squad, if not better than they had last year.
“The investigation was up until last season and they won’t have changed anything. They are in breach already – it is all wrong."
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 5th, 2019, 4:37 pm

blockhead wrote:The other PRL clubs are looking to have their recent titles removed from the record book.
Nothing to do with Europe though.


From my limited knowledge of this investigation, it is the resolve of the other Premiership Clubs, all of whom are shareholders in the competition company, which outlined the terms of the investigation, the range of sanctions available and the very limited terms of Appeal available after the investigation.

The critical element is what can Sarries do now? Total remuneration will have to reduce, but will some players consider suing the Club for under-payment of contractual earnings? There is then the question as to whether all players will stay with them on lower earnings?

As a matter of interest, it appears that the Top 14 also have a Salary Cap and, from this Season onwards a minimum number of JIFF players in each match-day Squad (essentially players of French origin). What the French Clubs don't have is the commonality of interest in the LNR (the Top14 Company) to ensure than sanctions and other fines are big enough to correct offenders. Clubs have been relegated in France for financial irregularities but no fine or points sanction of this magnitude has ever been applied.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby fourthirtythree » November 5th, 2019, 4:43 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I wonder if there's anything to prevent the business deals being dissolved but then Nigel Wray gives out million pound wedding presents etc in ten years time.

Yes: the law.

Judges look incredibly unfavourably at spurious deals engaged in solely for the purpose of circumventing rules. Tax law is rife with case law on the subject and it really pisses people off in a bad way.

Basically it's what they have already been done for, repeating it doesn't usually go down well.
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Re: The Final, Saracens in Newcastle, May 11th. Drive for Fi

Postby curates_egg » November 5th, 2019, 5:00 pm

cormac wrote:
curates_egg wrote:Jaysus, you lot are some craic!
I was only jokingly suggesting it.

However, for all the Sarries lawyers: if their Premiership title in 2018 were to be annulled (i.e. if they were found to be breaking the salary cap that season and that sanction were applied), surely they then illegitimately qualified for Europe. So how could their participation in that competition be deemed to be valid?
As for Glasgow being more affected, that's a reasonable violin to play. But, when winners are disqualified in sports, the award always goes to the next highest performer in the competition - even if they hampered other competitors. There is no other way to decide it.

I'm just back from the tailors, where they embroidered my fifth star onto this year's shirt. You can probably get some of those Chinese ones off d'internet with the 5 stars already though.


Well that's not true. There's now no recorded winner of the Tour de France in the years in which Lance Armstrong "won" those races.


True, cycling doesn't apply that approach. Athletics and swimming do. F1 I guess too.
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