Home Pro 14 Semi-Final, Sat 18/5 @ The RDS, 14.30

[Blueberry]

What is it with the Irish media, endless discussion about Munster this, Munster that, the trouble with Munster, Munster coaching, Munster money, more talk about Felix and Jerry than Leinster and sure Ulster and Connacht may as well be Russian teams. If Munster ain't winning there is a crisis, blah blah blah.

It's all self inflicted (Foley tragedy aside of course) and the only discussion point for me is why are they being allowed to continue on their current path of de-Munsterisation as it's developing nothing for Ireland.

[Dave Cahill]

What is it with the Irish media, endless discussion about Munster this, Munster that, the trouble with Munster, Munster coaching, Munster money, more talk about Felix and Jerry than Leinster and sure Ulster and Connacht may as well be Russian teams. If Munster ain't winning there is a crisis, blah blah blah.

It's all self inflicted (Foley tragedy aside of course) and the only discussion point for me is why are they being allowed to continue on their current path of de-Munsterisation as it's developing nothing for Ireland.

Bad news shifts copies basically.

[wixfjord]

Munster Night Rugby with Andy Dunne just out on Youtube. He talks a good game. Leinster got a mention near the end , wasn't much but we got more than Ulster so there.

Not really a fair reflection there. They talked for about 15 mins on Munster (obviously because it's a big story and the rest of the week will be focused on the final) and from then until the end of the segment talked about Leinster with about two mins talking about Ulster/Glasgow at the end.
And in fairness Dunne spoke well and analysed the Munster issues in a sharp way.

Of course the media are talking about Munster at the moment, it's a big story with lots of ongoing news angles.

But look at papers or The42 today for eg and you'll see plenty of Leinster content.

[Blueberry]

Munster is a shambles at the moment and can't see anything changing under Van Graab. Believe it or not I'd like to see a regeneration of Munster rugby as it can only help Ireland's cause. For me feck out Van Graab, get ROG in and rebuild over 3-4 seasons with a strong young Munster player ethos and see where it goes. He will be given time if the plan is clear. Accept that they may miss a season or two of HCUP, live with the financial issuss, be brave and patient and see where it goes and at the end of the process they may have something to be proud of. And stop nicking players and flying in saffers.

[artaneboy]

Munster is a shambles at the moment and can't see anything changing under Van Graab. Believe it or not I'd like to see a regeneration of Munster rugby as it can only help Ireland's cause. For me feck out Van Graab, get ROG in and rebuild over 3-4 seasons with a strong young Munster player ethos and see where it goes. He will be given time if the plan is clear. Accept that they may miss a season or two of HCUP, live with the financial issuss, be brave and patient and see where it goes and at the end of the process they may have something to be proud of. And stop nicking players and flying in saffers.

Hold on- Munster are not a shambles. They got to two semifinals and that’s not insignificant. It could reasonably be claimed that they’ve overachieved based on their playing talent.

If they were to stop poaching players and signing Saffers they would go through the floor- and there’s no likelihood they would recover anytime soon- if ever.

The coaching staff is a problem certainly. Van Grann is no genius but neither were Flannery or Jones. All this talk of culture and giving ROG time (assuming he took the job) is romantic and unrealistic. Foley was a legend for them- but he wasn’t up to it.

But even good coaches such as Penney were not able to arrest their decline. That’s partly because of this attachment to the ‘Munster tradition’ that had Penney ditched for über-traditionalist Foley. But the melancholy truth for them is that they have reverted to the mean of their capacity. This is likely as good as it gets for them- and that’s because they’ve grabbed players from all over; if they hadn’t they’d be in real trouble.




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[Blueberry]

All depends on perspective. Primary role of the provinces is to bring through Irish players for the national team. Leinster are doing this in spades and the added special intangible bonus of local lads playing for their local team I don't think can be overstated. Munster are not doing this and their inability to accept that they ain't at the top table anymore is clouding judgement and they are importing as a short term fix but this is creating two further problems. Firstly, the more desperate this behaviour becomes it further blocks any potential coming through, note Bill Johnston off to Ulster for example. Secondly it damages other Irish provinces as poaching players has an impact. In their primary role they are a shambles and scraping into two semis aided by a bag of saffers isn't to be lauded.

[ronk]

ROG seems to be a good coach but I dont think he's what Munster need, right now.

Munster spend on their academy, they mostly don't ease academy players into the team in a planned way. They knew they needed coaches with youth experience when they wanted to rebuild, they just stick with who could rebuild. Penney was NZ U20s coach, Foley was Munster academy coach (used more to tick the box while building his CV). POC tried to do the same but even his towering reputation couldn't withstand his unsuitability.

The other 3 provinces hired coaches who are committed to player development as a 1st class priority. I have van Graan as not in that league, and not showing signs of doing enough.

Munster and England had striking parallels in how they fared after a special generation. There was huge success from a one-off building process over several years and no model of sustainability. There were a few years of good and bad as the generation faded and a succession of coaches and false dawns. England gave a chance to a highly technical coach who'd seen academy coaching as more than a stepping stone. Leinster went though similar problems but over a shorter time period with only 1 bad coaching generation.

Friend and MacFarland show how you don't really need to be more patient with such coaches.

The callous way van Graan is freezing out players and coaches is ringing out loud alarm bells for me.

ROG has taken a route where he didn't try to tick the boxes before he inherited the Munster job but he's also taken a path that might not be what Munster need. He's picked jobs where he works almost exclusively with elite players and coaches in winning environments. He looks more like a future Irish backs coach than future Munster coach.

[Blueberry]

Agreed on Van Graan !! Far from an expert on ROG's suitability as a coach but his status may give him time to bring some young talent through with the Munster faithful. Bring in another coach with no connections and they will immediately feel under pressure and possibly keep looking for quick fixes. To do this properly they will probably have to accept 2-3 seasons at least in the wilderness in terms of results anyway. It's a huge problem but of their own making. Anyway whatever they do it's their business but I feel all Irish rugby has a stake in it when their behaviour is impacting on other provinces and the pipeline of Munster born and bred players for Ireland is tiny.

[OTT]

Munster is a shambles at the moment and can't see anything changing under Van Graab. Believe it or not I'd like to see a regeneration of Munster rugby as it can only help Ireland's cause. For me feck out Van Graab, get ROG in and rebuild over 3-4 seasons with a strong young Munster player ethos and see where it goes. He will be given time if the plan is clear. Accept that they may miss a season or two of HCUP, live with the financial issuss, be brave and patient and see where it goes and at the end of the process they may have something to be proud of. And stop nicking players and flying in saffers.

Most disingenuous post I have seen in a long time, love it.

[Oldschool]

The trend for Munster is downward.
They literally scraped into the S/Fs.
The real question is "what has to happen to change the trend".
The right coach can make a huge difference but only if there is an acceptance that attitudes need to change.
There seems to be a bit of a purge going on at the moment, let's hope it's not window dressing.
A real negative sign is Johnston moving to Ulster.
McFarland comes across as a coach who knows what he's about.
He obviously rates his new signing and on the other side of the coin what message has been sent back to Munster.
Nucifora for some reason seems to have been going easy on Munster so far.
That may be about to change.
Connacht and Ulster are both going in the right direction.
Leinster's problems are not internal (know what I mean).
Munster, perhaps, needed a long period in the doldrums (not winning the HCC) before the necessary changes could be implemented.
Nucifora seems quite prepared to make haste slowly.
Munster awaits.

[olaf the fat]

That is a harsh review of Munsters position. They got to the semi finals of both competitions they were in, beaten by this years, and last years European champions - two of the best teams around in a long time. They bettered Racing92 and equaled Toulouse, in what they achieved in Europe.

In regards to Munster pulling their weight for team Ireland, apart from Earls, Joey, Murray, POM and Stander - they "facilitate" players (put development to one side for the moment) Scannell, Ryan Kilcoyne, Beirne, Farrell & Conway.

To misuse boxing parlance - they are not in our weight division - but few are. That does not mean the aren't reaching the achievements the IRFU consider acceptable.

There are problems, a toxic level of entitlement by the fans & what seems dysfunctional coaching / management set up, coupled with a worrying approach to player development. They will only be truly happy when they are beating us, so I am quite happy with where they are, and hope they stay there.

[backrower8]

Amusing to read wall-to-wall commentary about Munster’s woes and future here.

[Peg Leg]

Amusing to read wall-to-wall commentary about Munster’s woes and future here.

It is funny to see the number of posts on here regarding the media's obsession with Munster and this thread ticking along at a busier pace than the final thread.

[Oldschool]

Amusing to read wall-to-wall commentary about Munster’s woes and future here.

It is funny to see the number of posts on here regarding the media's obsession with Munster and this thread ticking along at a busier pace than the final thread.

Let me the first to throw the stone.
People with two much time on their hands and nothing better to do.
Update, it's a lovely day to cut the grass or so I have just been informed.

[Blueberry]

Amusing to read wall-to-wall commentary about Munster’s woes and future here.

It is funny to see the number of posts on here regarding the media's obsession with Munster and this thread ticking along at a busier pace than the final thread.

Let me the first to throw the stone.
People with two much time on their hands and nothing better to do.
Update, it's a lovely day to cut the grass or so I have just been informed.

Ah let us enjoy our post Munster hammering bliss for a bit, lots to be giving them stick about so dig in !! Heaven knows they can dish it out !!

[Blueberry]

Munster is a shambles at the moment and can't see anything changing under Van Graab. Believe it or not I'd like to see a regeneration of Munster rugby as it can only help Ireland's cause. For me feck out Van Graab, get ROG in and rebuild over 3-4 seasons with a strong young Munster player ethos and see where it goes. He will be given time if the plan is clear. Accept that they may miss a season or two of HCUP, live with the financial issuss, be brave and patient and see where it goes and at the end of the process they may have something to be proud of. And stop nicking players and flying in saffers.

Most disingenuous post I have seen in a long time, love it.

Guilty as charged....

[Peg Leg]

That is a harsh review of Munsters position. They got to the semi finals of both competitions they were in, beaten by this years, and last years European champions - two of the best teams around in a long time. They bettered Racing92 and equaled Toulouse, in what they achieved in Europe.

In regards to Munster pulling their weight for team Ireland, apart from Earls, Joey, Murray, POM and Stander - they "facilitate" players (put development to one side for the moment) Scannell, Ryan Kilcoyne, Beirne, Farrell & Conway.

To misuse boxing parlance - they are not in our weight division - but few are. That does not mean the aren't reaching the achievements the IRFU consider acceptable.

There are problems, a toxic level of entitlement by the fans & what seems dysfunctional coaching / management set up, coupled with a worrying approach to player development. They will only be truly happy when they are beating us, so I am quite happy with where they are, and hope they stay there.

Well said, It would appear that van Grann has been working on the cloth measuring since he got here and as alluded to by Ronk & Hugonaut, has just now commenced the cutting. His two major KPI's are likely to be success on the pitch and academy development (Assuming Howlett was focused on client base development/bums on seats)
The notion that they are a shambles and that another f%~king coach should be brought in and given 3-4 seasons and he (JvG) just finishing up his second season off the back of a curtailed and bizarre last minute, October installation the season prior. Another coach will not fix the institutional problems, the last thing Munster need to do is follow the Celtic/Magners League/Pro12/Pro12 with added playoff's/Pro14 model and just stick to a plan. Assess the current state (of the organisation), map out the issues and the preferred state, script a plan, sell it to the executive, own it and execute the sh!t out of it.
To my mind, JvG seems to be the grown up in a very temperamental organisation, an organisation I might add, built on a culture of local community standing together with the local players, across the province, to give them the strength to "stand up and fight" the bigger/stronger teams. The organisation (probably expecting a cyclical dip of 3-4 years) was willing to shred that culture by handing roles of importance to culturally significant but unqualified senior players and importing for quick success (nationally/internationally). That is their greatest problem now as they seek to rebuild at foundation level many years after surviving on handouts, bailouts and jokers. They will do it too.

[Peg Leg]

Amusing to read wall-to-wall commentary about Munster’s woes and future here.

It is funny to see the number of posts on here regarding the media's obsession with Munster and this thread ticking along at a busier pace than the final thread.

Let me the first to throw the stone.
People with two much time on their hands and nothing better to do.
Update, it's a lovely day to cut the grass or so I have just been informed.

If I ever get to retire OS, on a day like today, I'm going to crack a beer in the garden, put the feet up, login to babbling brook, view members, search "Oldschool" and just spend the day reading your posts.
You're on my bucket list now.

[joooooe]

I think two words provide a neat summary for Munster's position: Alby Mathewson.

He is a fine player and an excellent stand in for Murray while he dealt with his injury in the Autumn. Munster fans seemed pleased as it meant the standard if the team did not drop significantly (further) in the absence of their best player.

But what are the unintended consequences of his presence? The long list of other scrumhalves (Cronin, Casey, Hart and Williams) are denied game time and the opportunity to improve. Provincial budget is spent on an import rather than a Munster-developed (or even Irish-eligible) player. Then it turns out he's pretty handy, so the signing of a medical joker gets extended to the end of the season and again extended until the end of the World Cup. Meanwhile, the starting scrum half for the under 20s grand slam winners gets ignored and has to wait until the very end of the season for minutes with the first team, when he looks really good. But that only happens after Munster announce the signing of McCarthy, so the cycle continues.

I honestly believe that if McGrath and Gibson-Park were injured for Leinster at the start if the season we would simply have hailed the next taxis off the rank and promoted McCarthy, O'Sullivan, Patterson and trust them to make errors and learn.

Once young players see that they are trusted (and not blamed for any honest errors) there must be a positive buy-in from all concerned. Conversely, if their progress is constantly blocked by imported talent signed to satisfy myopic supporters then they get disillusioned and leave; exhibit A: Bill Johnston.

[mildlyinterested]

I think two words provide a neat summary for Munster's position: Alby Mathewson.

He is a fine player and an excellent stand in for Murray while he dealt with his injury in the Autumn. Munster fans seemed pleased as it meant the standard if the team did not drop significantly (further) in the absence of their best player.

But what are the unintended consequences of his presence? The long list of other scrumhalves (Cronin, Casey, Hart and Williams) are denied game time and the opportunity to improve. Provincial budget is spent on an import rather than a Munster-developed (or even Irish-eligible) player. Then it turns out he's pretty handy, so the signing of a medical joker gets extended to the end of the season and again extended until the end of the World Cup. Meanwhile, the starting scrum half for the under 20s grand slam winners gets ignored and has to wait until the very end of the season for minutes with the first team, when he looks really good. But that only happens after Munster announce the signing of McCarthy, so the cycle continues.

I honestly believe that if McGrath and Gibson-Park were injured for Leinster at the start if the season we would simply have hailed the next taxis off the rank and promoted McCarthy, O'Sullivan, Patterson and trust them to make errors and learn.

Once young players see that they are trusted (and not blamed for any honest errors) there must be a positive buy-in from all concerned. Conversely, if their progress is constantly blocked by imported talent signed to satisfy myopic supporters then they get disillusioned and leave; exhibit A: Bill Johnston.

Of course we would have.