Champions Cup 2020

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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby joooooe » November 19th, 2019, 8:29 pm

The Doc wrote:
Twist wrote:I’m confused as to why they aren’t required to shed any of their overpaid players

But I’m really enjoying poor Stephen Jones’ rants against “the jealous and the defeated".


Because (according to them) they are currently within the salary cap. Possibly it could be down to one-off payments. PRL salary cap rules treat one-off payments as being evenly distributed across the length of the contract i.e. if you sign someone on £100k per annum with an initial sign on payment of £300k, Saracens may have accounted for that as £400k in year one and £100k for years 2 and 3 - maybe to try to time payments to stay within limits on various years. However the salary cap rules state that as £200k per annum. If the contract rolls over and say you re-signed the person for £150k per annum - you're annual salary has reduce £50k

So could be a factor of contracts rolling over and the new arrangements coming under the cap

Co-investments could be part of the initial sign-on payment. Though co-investments are not a problem per se - it depends on valuation. So if the player and the owner both put in £100k for a 50:50 share in a company, there is zero impact on the salary cap. The problem occurs if the owner puts in £100k and the player puts in little or nothing but gets 50% ownership (or anywhere where the amount invested doesn't equate to the % ownership


Probably not as simple as that. For example, Wray and a player set up a company and issue two shares of £1 each, and they each subscribe for one share. Next, Wray loans this company £500k at market rates of interest, which the company uses to purchase a property and do it up. The company then sells the property for £950k, repays the loan (say, £550k after interest) and declares a distrubutable profit of £400k, to be divided equally among the shareholders. All above board and the player has cleared an extra £200k.

However, the salary cap regulations, which I believe run to dozens of pages, include ALL payments to players including profitable partnerships. So the £200k is added to the wage bill when calculating this amount.

I imagine the actual set-up would be rather more complex, where each co-investment company is itself an investor in a larger fund, so the investments made aren't for £500k derelict properties but £50m office developments and shopping centres. Dividends accruing to shareholders can be rolled up (and tax free) and only distributed at a future date (i.e. after retirement) and they thought they would get away with it.

They didn't. They cheated. And it's certainly not over yet. This will drag on into future seasons as the salary cap calculations are made at the end of each season and Saracens are almost certainly still in breach for 2019/20.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby ribs » November 20th, 2019, 12:09 pm

That's interesting if they are not in breach for 2019/20 YET, just because not much of the season has elapsed. Will Saracens have to look at offloading players later this season? Do you think they've had a quiet word with some of the players who are starting to look around at other clubs? Perhaps they will only use a smaller pool of players or set up a separate club? These transfers will take time to come to fruition and announcements made so it could be March next year. Perhaps there is a relegation clause in each contract that they would use instead? it will be interesting to see how they solve this.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby joooooe » November 20th, 2019, 1:21 pm

ribs wrote:That's interesting if they are not in breach for 2019/20 YET, just because not much of the season has elapsed. Will Saracens have to look at offloading players later this season? Do you think they've had a quiet word with some of the players who are starting to look around at other clubs? Perhaps they will only use a smaller pool of players or set up a separate club? These transfers will take time to come to fruition and announcements made so it could be March next year. Perhaps there is a relegation clause in each contract that they would use instead? it will be interesting to see how they solve this.


They will almost certainly be in breach of the salary cap for this season. It would be very difficult to unravel the contracts they've entered into with the players. It makes sense that their first priority is to avoid relegation but if there are relegation release clauses in the players' contracts it could be a nice loophole for them to enable them to get inside the salary cap sooner rather than later.

But in any event (and this brings it back on topic) this is the last season Saracens will have this great team available as any player whose contract ends this summer will be out the door. They obviously can't win the Prem so their only chance of silverware for a long while to come, as well as a route back into Europe for next season, would be to win the HC. They effectively chucked their match away to Racing and they'll hammer Ospreys at home this weekend, so we'll only know their actual intentions when they pick their team for Thomond in 3 weeks.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby riocard911 » November 20th, 2019, 1:34 pm

joooooe wrote:
ribs wrote:That's interesting if they are not in breach for 2019/20 YET, just because not much of the season has elapsed. Will Saracens have to look at offloading players later this season? Do you think they've had a quiet word with some of the players who are starting to look around at other clubs? Perhaps they will only use a smaller pool of players or set up a separate club? These transfers will take time to come to fruition and announcements made so it could be March next year. Perhaps there is a relegation clause in each contract that they would use instead? it will be interesting to see how they solve this.


They will almost certainly be in breach of the salary cap for this season. It would be very difficult to unravel the contracts they've entered into with the players. It makes sense that their first priority is to avoid relegation but if there are relegation release clauses in the players' contracts it could be a nice loophole for them to enable them to get inside the salary cap sooner rather than later.

But in any event (and this brings it back on topic) this is the last season Saracens will have this great team available as any player whose contract ends this summer will be out the door. They obviously can't win the Prem so their only chance of silverware for a long while to come, as well as a route back into Europe for next season, would be to win the HC. They effectively chucked their match away to Racing and they'll hammer Ospreys at home this weekend, so we'll only know their actual intentions when they pick their team for Thomond in 3 weeks.


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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby neill_m » November 20th, 2019, 2:37 pm

Saracens can't take their Premiership status for granted. Last season they won 16/22 and if you remove the 35 points, they would have finished 8th on 43 points - 12 above relegated Newcastle. Have a 3-1 record so far this year.

They may take the French approach of playing strong sides at home and sending the 3rd XV away from home in this year's Cup.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby Twist » November 20th, 2019, 3:03 pm

riocard911 wrote:
joooooe wrote:
ribs wrote:That's interesting if they are not in breach for 2019/20 YET, just because not much of the season has elapsed. Will Saracens have to look at offloading players later this season? Do you think they've had a quiet word with some of the players who are starting to look around at other clubs? Perhaps they will only use a smaller pool of players or set up a separate club? These transfers will take time to come to fruition and announcements made so it could be March next year. Perhaps there is a relegation clause in each contract that they would use instead? it will be interesting to see how they solve this.


They will almost certainly be in breach of the salary cap for this season. It would be very difficult to unravel the contracts they've entered into with the players. It makes sense that their first priority is to avoid relegation but if there are relegation release clauses in the players' contracts it could be a nice loophole for them to enable them to get inside the salary cap sooner rather than later.

But in any event (and this brings it back on topic) this is the last season Saracens will have this great team available as any player whose contract ends this summer will be out the door. They obviously can't win the Prem so their only chance of silverware for a long while to come, as well as a route back into Europe for next season, would be to win the HC. They effectively chucked their match away to Racing and they'll hammer Ospreys at home this weekend, so we'll only know their actual intentions when they pick their team for Thomond in 3 weeks.


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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby paddyor » November 20th, 2019, 5:34 pm

ribs wrote:That's interesting if they are not in breach for 2019/20 YET, just because not much of the season has elapsed. Will Saracens have to look at offloading players later this season? Do you think they've had a quiet word with some of the players who are starting to look around at other clubs? Perhaps they will only use a smaller pool of players or set up a separate club? These transfers will take time to come to fruition and announcements made so it could be March next year. Perhaps there is a relegation clause in each contract that they would use instead? it will be interesting to see how they solve this.

AFAIK, the co-investments weren't necessarily the problem. They also cut a load of older playeers last season like Strettle and Bosch when they knew the investigation was on going(and bare in mind they've claimed this was all an oversight) so they knew how much they ahd to come down by. Apparetnyl the fine was £3 for every £1
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby Lar » November 20th, 2019, 7:37 pm

paddyor wrote:
ribs wrote:That's interesting if they are not in breach for 2019/20 YET, just because not much of the season has elapsed. Will Saracens have to look at offloading players later this season? Do you think they've had a quiet word with some of the players who are starting to look around at other clubs? Perhaps they will only use a smaller pool of players or set up a separate club? These transfers will take time to come to fruition and announcements made so it could be March next year. Perhaps there is a relegation clause in each contract that they would use instead? it will be interesting to see how they solve this.

AFAIK, the co-investments weren't necessarily the problem. They also cut a load of older playeers last season like Strettle and Bosch when they knew the investigation was on going(and bare in mind they've claimed this was all an oversight) so they knew how much they ahd to come down by. Apparetnyl the fine was £3 for every £1


If that is the case they were 25% over the salary cap. Have they really claimed this was an oversight? I was sure they claimed they had done nothing wrong. They initially said they intended to appeal. But various reasons have led them to drop that idea and now to appear to be contrite.

But being 25% over the cap means they knew exactly what they were doing and even the co-investment plans smack very plainly to me of someone coming up with scheme they thought might workbut hasn't. believe it was exactly these schemes that were the issue. I accept they may have lost some squad players but they also signed Elliott Daly who won't have been a bargain salary to take on. They may also be in a bit of a bind as it may be that a lot of the contracts are presumably binding as between the players and the club (or whoever), so not easy just to cancel them. If they break the salary cap again this year they should really be relegated. Is that allowed in the Rules?

I have never had any time for Nigel Wray, and as a club they are very easy to dislike, but it's impossible not to acknowledge that they have the best academy in English Rugby, which they do deserve some credit for. They will undoubtedly forego a concerted defence of their Champions Cup title to ensure premiership survival. If they play within the rules and recover their form of the last few seasons, fair enough. Will be interesting to see.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 21st, 2019, 9:46 am

There is word filtering around London Clubs that Saracens didn't appeal because to do so would have exposed the 'modus operandi' of the entire project which isn't even known to the other PRL owners, who have only received the findings of the external investigation.

As others have pointed out, Sarries must now qualify through their Premiership fixtures, or focus their efforts totally on winning the Heineken Cup to requalify. If they don't, the player drain could commence at season end. That's a real devil's choice for McCall but he may take the view that Exeter are the only opponents that have the ability to beat his team in England, so that's the safest bet. We'll soon see.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby johng » November 21st, 2019, 9:49 am

Wouldn't it be hilarious if they won the HC but got relegated.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby joooooe » November 21st, 2019, 9:58 am

johng wrote:Wouldn't it be hilarious if they won the HC but got relegated.


No
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby fourthirtythree » November 21st, 2019, 11:07 am

joooooe wrote:
johng wrote:Wouldn't it be hilarious if they won the HC but got relegated.


No


Wryly humorous then? No? Not even a grin and shrug?

Tough audience.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby awaaf » November 21st, 2019, 12:10 pm

Reilly Humorous - sounds like a porn star!
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby Oldschool » November 21st, 2019, 3:00 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:
joooooe wrote:
johng wrote:Wouldn't it be hilarious if they won the HC but got relegated.


No


Wryly humorous then? No? Not even a grin and shrug?

Tough audience.

Ironic maybe, nothing to laugh about at all.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby johng » November 21st, 2019, 3:11 pm

Ah no one can laugh at fok all these days. It's not exactly Frankie Boyle levels of edgy.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby wixfjord » November 23rd, 2019, 2:24 pm

Treviso and Northampton is a good ding dong battle. Currently 12-8 to Treviso. They've the two wingers back meaning they're looking dangerous out wide. Northampton look a good side attacking wise but pack isn't great.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby wixfjord » November 23rd, 2019, 2:33 pm

Now 22-8 to Bennton with three tries to the home side!
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby tingman » November 23rd, 2019, 2:34 pm

22-8 to Benetton - they are in the mood.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby Twist » November 23rd, 2019, 3:23 pm

Flagging badly now. 25-18 with 25 mins left. Cant see them holding out, theyll need another score
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Re: Champions Cup 2020

Postby OTT » November 23rd, 2019, 3:27 pm

Running a straight line. Tick.

But running away from the ball to take out the winger.

That’s ridiculous.
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