JS v RB

[Oldschool]

Sorry Oldschool but this is just a mad assertion.

A lot of what you say makes sense.
However, based (not exclusively) on the last time we played Saracens, I wouldn't want Sexton starting.
That leaves us with RB as of now with the possibility that HB or Frawley could come through.
If we were playing Saracens tomorrow RB would be our best option, unpalatable as that might be.

Possibly however just because I might be mad doesn't mean I'm stupid.
Obviously, however I hope I'm wrong and that Sexton can perform at a good enough level for the rest of the season.

[Oldschool]

Think there's a difference in standards. We believe that the standard is winning the Champions Cup, I don't mean that to sound arrogant and in no way, shape or form is that anything like a given but it is the objective.

To do that you have to be better in as many positions as possible than the leading competitors for the Cup. So if we want to dethrone the current holders we need better players and better coaching than Saracens. Is Ross Byrne better than Farrell? At this stage it's not even close.

Also, to compete we have to improve as a team. Does Ross Byrne improve Leinster vs Leinster with Johnny Sexton? No he doesn't.

Ross Byrne has proven himself as a decent Pro14 outhalf and he may develop into a decent Champions Cup outhalf but he isn't that yet and isn't close to the Ireland team. There are areas of his game that have improved significantly - like his kicking - but there is a lot to work on. He is still young of course but in terms of potential Frawley and/or his brother may have more in the bag.

That sort of impatience is why Munster haven't passed a semi in a long time. They didnt want to build on the talent they had and they took shortcuts.

It's the same thing with Ireland and the quarter final.

Don't get the impatience point, nobody is suggesting getting rid of the lad rather that he's not there yet. The point is that our standard is and should be winning the Champions Cup and having the players and coaching that entails. Any player that isn't there yet is on a journey to get there, that's what elite sport is all about isn't it?

On the patience thing, it's possible that some want to move on too soon but at some point the curves of the respective players will cross.
Obviously Fleocaster are aware of the issue and will hopefully be able to identify when the balance has shifted.

[desperado]

Sorry Oldschool but this is just a mad assertion.

A lot of what you say makes sense.
However, based (not exclusively) on the last time we played Saracens, I wouldn't want Sexton starting.
That leaves us with RB as of now with the possibility that HB or Frawley could come through.
If we were playing Saracens tomorrow RB would be our best option, unpalatable as that might be.

Possibly however just because I might be mad doesn't mean I'm stupid.
Obviously, however I hope I'm wrong and that Sexton can perform at a good enough level for the rest of the season.

I don't believe you're stupid. However I can't remember JS or his performance being an issue last HC final. As I recall we were 10 up going into the red at halftime; and allowed them an in (was it Rob pinned but penalised for not rolling away? Garces. Pen into corner, and some phase's later they're in). Early minutes of second half we were banging on the door, was it Ringer ? ignored an overlap; again Garces awarded Liam Williams what looked like an illegal TO. Then a harsh yellow, and close in scrum with 15? mins left gives them their clinching try. 13-10 to 20-10. Honestly; I dont recall JS being an issue. The latest evidence - our (Ireland's) failure in Japan, has shocked to the core, and consciously or subconsciously, we question whether key players; like JS are past it. I'd love to know who the 5 players Graham Henry believes should have been put out to pasture going into 2019.

[riocard911]

"... our (Ireland's) failure in Japan, has shocked to the core ..."

That's for sure. I'm so shocked, I couldn't watch the semis last weekend and watched Zebre vs the BIB instead...

[wixfjord]

OS you keep talking about how bad Sexton was against Sarries, what is this about?

[Oldschool]

OS you keep talking about how bad Sexton was against Sarries, what is this about?

Very good on the questions but not so good on the answers so for your homework have another look at the second half against Sarries, when the pressure came on.

[Oldschool]

Sorry Oldschool but this is just a mad assertion.

A lot of what you say makes sense.
However, based (not exclusively) on the last time we played Saracens, I wouldn't want Sexton starting.
That leaves us with RB as of now with the possibility that HB or Frawley could come through.
If we were playing Saracens tomorrow RB would be our best option, unpalatable as that might be.

Possibly however just because I might be mad doesn't mean I'm stupid.
Obviously, however I hope I'm wrong and that Sexton can perform at a good enough level for the rest of the season.

I don't believe you're stupid. However I can't remember JS or his performance being an issue last HC final. As I recall we were 10 up going into the red at halftime; and allowed them an in (was it Rob pinned but penalised for not rolling away? Garces. Pen into corner, and some phase's later they're in). Early minutes of second half we were banging on the door, was it Ringer ? ignored an overlap; again Garces awarded Liam Williams what looked like an illegal TO. Then a harsh yellow, and close in scrum with 15? mins left gives them their clinching try. 13-10 to 20-10. Honestly; I dont recall JS being an issue. The latest evidence - our (Ireland's) failure in Japan, has shocked to the core, and consciously or subconsciously, we question whether key players; like JS are past it. I'd love to know who the 5 players Graham Henry believes should have been put out to pasture going into 2019.

Two intercepts by BV one incomplete, the second one led to a try and Sexton was wilting even before that happened. Game changing moments, Sexton not recognising the risk and letting passes go that weren't on, not what you expect from an OH of Sexton's reputation or ability unless....
Henry?, it's already been debated elsewhere (with the usual expected non conclusion) however my guess and not in any order, although I think Best justified his selection, Sexton, Best, Murray and POM. The fifth would be one of RK, Henshaw (in particular) both injury risks, and perhaps McGrath who just seems to have gone backwards.
But just forget my guesses, who do other posters think Henry was referring to. Michael Lynagh said there were too many servants in the team, again no names.

[wixfjord]

OS you keep talking about how bad Sexton was against Sarries, what is this about?

Very good on the questions but not so good on the answers so for your homework have another look at the second half against Sarries, when the pressure came on.

What specifically am I looking at within those 40 minutes?

For contrast, here are some of the post match player ratings:

10. Jonathan Sexton - 6
A strong first half from the Irish International as he kicked well and ran a tidy shift on attack. However, Saracens' brilliant defence nullified Sexton's influence on the game in the second half.
https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/play ... ens/616389

Johnny Sexton (captain) - 7
Flawless from the tee. If ever there was a performance that demonstrated the toughness of the 33-year-old this was it. Took immense punishment yet never flinched, arguably should have been removed for his own safety.
https://www.balls.ie/rugby/leinster-sar ... ngs-410422

Johnny Sexton (capt) 7
Drove his side forward all afternoon and looked threatening. Hugh shift in defence.
https://extra.ie/2019/05/11/sport/rugby ... er-ratings

Johnny Sexton
The playmaker should never be making 14 tackles, one more than Henshaw and O’Brien. Played to the bitter end despite a painful arm. The reward for such bravery was meeting the full force of George Kruis. Recovered to gather the Leinster circle offering encouragement for the road ahead. Rating: 6
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3889388

So hardly a MOTM, but hardly a scapegoat worthy performance either.

Me thinks you might be misremembering. Sign of old age?

[blockhead]

King Johnny will fade. Probably that process has already started but he is still our best 10 and one of the best in European club rugby.
Ross Byrne, love the lad but I cant see him being our 10 in the long term. He is just too limited. What he does he does very well but its not enough and he's probably already close to his ceiling.

[Oldschool]

OS you keep talking about how bad Sexton was against Sarries, what is this about?

Very good on the questions but not so good on the answers so for your homework have another look at the second half against Sarries, when the pressure came on.

What specifically am I looking at within those 40 minutes?

For contrast, here are some of the post match player ratings:

10. Jonathan Sexton - 6
A strong first half from the Irish International as he kicked well and ran a tidy shift on attack. However, Saracens' brilliant defence nullified Sexton's influence on the game in the second half.
https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/play ... ens/616389

Johnny Sexton (captain) - 7
Flawless from the tee. If ever there was a performance that demonstrated the toughness of the 33-year-old this was it. Took immense punishment yet never flinched, arguably should have been removed for his own safety.
https://www.balls.ie/rugby/leinster-sar ... ngs-410422

Johnny Sexton (capt) 7
Drove his side forward all afternoon and looked threatening. Hugh shift in defence.
https://extra.ie/2019/05/11/sport/rugby ... er-ratings

Johnny Sexton
The playmaker should never be making 14 tackles, one more than Henshaw and O’Brien. Played to the bitter end despite a painful arm. The reward for such bravery was meeting the full force of George Kruis. Recovered to gather the Leinster circle offering encouragement for the road ahead. Rating: 6
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.3889388

So hardly a MOTM, but hardly a scapegoat worthy performance either.

Me thinks you might be misremembering. Sign of old age?

More questions and no answers again.
So you aren't prepared to do your own homework, enough said.
Henry said we had 5 players who were past it.
Michael Lynagh said we had too many servants in the squad.
Who do you think they had in mind?
I'm betting you'll dodge the questions again.

As for old age, that gives me the benefit of knowing when it's time to hang up the boots, what's your excuse?

[Oldschool]

King Johnny will fade. Probably that process has already started but he is still our best 10 and one of the best in European club rugby.
Ross Byrne, love the lad but I cant see him being our 10 in the long term. He is just too limited. What he does he does very well but its not enough and he's probably already close to his ceiling.

You could well be right about RB but I suspect he's the best stop gap we have. I think Sexton has faded just that bit too much.

[wixfjord]

So you aren't prepared to do your own homework, enough said.
Henry said we had 5 players who were past it.
Michael Lynagh said we had too many servants in the squad.
Who do you think they had in mind?
I'm betting you'll dodge the questions again.

Haha you're some tulip!

That's not actually what Michael Lynagh said firstly.

And can you point me to where Henry said that? You've said it twice now and I don't recall that comment.

[Xanthippe]

Wow, I started this thread because I thought Ross Byrne was being harshly treated and ‘dismissed’ by some posters but I honestly never intended or expected it to turn into a Sexton bashing thread.

The only reason I did the comparison between the two was to illustrate the similarities in their progressions at the start of their careers - in the hope that some might be prepared to be a little more patient with Ross - after all if Dr Phil hadn’t been injured at the start of the Munster match .........

[johng]

And can you point me to where Henry said that? You've said it twice now and I don't recall that comment.

Donal Lennihan and Hugh Cahill mentioned it in commentary.

From memory it was something like...

"We spoke to Graham Henry on the sideline yesterday and he mentioned about 5 players that he thought Joe persisted with too long. I'm not going to name any names but I was shocked when he said it"

These are the most capped players in order with ages afterwards.

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 119 caps CAPTAIN 37
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 91 caps 33
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 90 caps 32
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 83 caps 34
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 77 caps 32
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 73 caps 30
Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 69 caps 33
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 59 caps 30

All over 30 however we can eliminate Cronin as he didn't play in the WC

Take your pick out of the other 7 because no one else is either over 30 or had more than 50 caps going into the tournament.

Personally I don't think 8 players over 30 is a lot in a squad of 31. I am struggling to find 5 that I would have left at home even with hindsight.

If I had to choose I would definitely keep Healy.

Conor Murray has been in bad form since his injury and the rumour was that McGrath pushed him hard for his place. But he is only 30 and was one of the top scrum halves in the world pre injury.

O'Mahony is also just 30 and with 59 caps is hardly ready to be put out to pasture. I am in the group of people who doesn't see why he is an automatic starter for Ireland but no way I'd leave him at home.

Sexton similarly is only a year from winning player of the year. Yes he is 34 but should have had plenty in the tank for the WC tbf.

Earls at 32 for a winger is knocking on but who else was shooting the lights out on the wing?

Kearney at 33 should have enough in the tank for a WC positional sense etc fairly unmatched.

Best was a gamble and probably his captaincy swung it. I don't think he let us down though.

I don't see any clear options that were shouting to be included. The biggest shock pre tournament was the absence of Devin Toner.

Perhaps Henry meant that Joe should have jettisoned some of them a year or two out to keep it fresh.

Fair enough you did get the feeling that Joe wanted to keep his lads in place that were tried and tested for his last tournament, but again.... World player of the year and his halfback partner? Really? Just dump them?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Wow, I started this thread because I thought Ross Byrne was being harshly treated and ‘dismissed’ by some posters but I honestly never intended or expected it to turn into a Sexton bashing thread.

The only reason I did the comparison between the two was to illustrate the similarities in their progressions at the start of their careers - in the hope that some might be prepared to be a little more patient with Ross - after all if Dr Phil hadn’t been injured at the start of the Munster match .........

It was a good idea for a thread and hopefully it'll become a good discussion at some stage but unfortunately the board has gone a bit mental recently.

[ronk]

Don't get the impatience point, nobody is suggesting getting rid of the lad rather that he's not there yet. The point is that our standard is and should be winning the Champions Cup and having the players and coaching that entails. Any player that isn't there yet is on a journey to get there, that's what elite sport is all about isn't it?

Setting a bar that requires a young player to be better than Farrell is not helpful.

Ross Byrne was rushed into the team when 3 outhalves ahead of him were injured. He managed well enough that we were able to save our season. He later played well enough that he got ahead of Carbery and got into the mix for the RWC. He almost made it.

I dont agree with people who'd have him ahead of Sexton in a big game but the fact that this conversation is occurring shows how far he has come.

He improved and expanded his game in the last year, hopefully he can continue. If others improve more and can get ahead of them then great (for Leinster), but they have a long way and rugby is still a squad game.

[Jonny tight lips]

Wow, I started this thread because I thought Ross Byrne was being harshly treated and ‘dismissed’ by some posters but I honestly never intended or expected it to turn into a Sexton bashing thread.

The only reason I did the comparison between the two was to illustrate the similarities in their progressions at the start of their careers - in the hope that some might be prepared to be a little more patient with Ross - after all if Dr Phil hadn’t been injured at the start of the Munster match .........

I think the issue is the data you provided dosent back up your point. In European minutes RB played 275% of the minutes JS played ... almost 3 times as much. That’s not even close to being close. By the time JS had 771 minutes of European rugby it would of been the 10/11 season. So at the end of the 10/11 season JS had just the two European cups including a motm performance in one of the finals, was our starting 10 and was fighting ROG to start for Ireland, RB on the other hand is second choice in blue, nowhere near the Irish 15 and all but a few nutters on here wouldn’t have him playing a champions cup final against sarries.

And while it is impossible to know for sure what would of happened if Dr. Phil hadn’t of been injured that day since he was leaving anyway and there was no sign of a replacement it is reasonable to assume that Sexton would of taken over the next season and little else would of changed.

[neiliog93]

And can you point me to where Henry said that? You've said it twice now and I don't recall that comment.

Donal Lennihan and Hugh Cahill mentioned it in commentary.

From memory it was something like...

"We spoke to Graham Henry on the sideline yesterday and he mentioned about 5 players that he thought Joe persisted with too long. I'm not going to name any names but I was shocked when he said it"

These are the most capped players in order with ages afterwards.

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 119 caps CAPTAIN 37
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 91 caps 33
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 90 caps 32
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 83 caps 34
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 77 caps 32
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 73 caps 30
Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 69 caps 33
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 59 caps 30

All over 30 however we can eliminate Cronin as he didn't play in the WC

Take your pick out of the other 7 because no one else is either over 30 or had more than 50 caps going into the tournament.

Personally I don't think 8 players over 30 is a lot in a squad of 31. I am struggling to find 5 that I would have left at home even with hindsight.

If I had to choose I would definitely keep Healy.

Conor Murray has been in bad form since his injury and the rumour was that McGrath pushed him hard for his place. But he is only 30 and was one of the top scrum halves in the world pre injury.

O'Mahony is also just 30 and with 59 caps is hardly ready to be put out to pasture. I am in the group of people who doesn't see why he is an automatic starter for Ireland but no way I'd leave him at home.

Sexton similarly is only a year from winning player of the year. Yes he is 34 but should have had plenty in the tank for the WC tbf.

Earls at 32 for a winger is knocking on but who else was shooting the lights out on the wing?

Kearney at 33 should have enough in the tank for a WC positional sense etc fairly unmatched.

Best was a gamble and probably his captaincy swung it. I don't think he let us down though.

I don't see any clear options that were shouting to be included. The biggest shock pre tournament was the absence of Devin Toner.

Perhaps Henry meant that Joe should have jettisoned some of them a year or two out to keep it fresh.

Fair enough you did get the feeling that Joe wanted to keep his lads in place that were tried and tested for his last tournament, but again.... World player of the year and his halfback partner? Really? Just dump them?

Of the bolded group of players, I would only have POM, Cronin, Healy, Sexton and Murray in the Six Nations squad, and unless there are big changes in form before then, only Sexton starting.

[Oldschool]

So you aren't prepared to do your own homework, enough said.
Henry said we had 5 players who were past it.
Michael Lynagh said we had too many servants in the squad.
Who do you think they had in mind?
I'm betting you'll dodge the questions again.

Haha you're some tulip!

That's not actually what Michael Lynagh said firstly.

And can you point me to where Henry said that? You've said it twice now and I don't recall that comment.

Thankfully others above have confirmed whate Henry said.
So what to your knowledge did Michael Lynagh say?

[desperado]

King Johnny will fade. Probably that process has already started but he is still our best 10 and one of the best in European club rugby.
Ross Byrne, love the lad but I cant see him being our 10 in the long term. He is just too limited. What he does he does very well but its not enough and he's probably already close to his ceiling.

+1. Couldn't have put it better myself. OS Using 2 incidents (BV intercept, and almost intercept from a Sarries line that lived offside) in the HC final last year to herald his demise is nuts. I don't recall it being heralded then, and hindsight is great when you selectively use incidents to fit your current narrative. On that; BV's 'intercept/knock-on' given as a scrum by Garces could easily have been a penalty - in this world cup it would have been.