JS v RB

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Re: JS v RB

Postby Oldschool » November 1st, 2019, 11:14 am

neiliog93 wrote:
johng wrote:
wixfjord wrote:And can you point me to where Henry said that? You've said it twice now and I don't recall that comment.

Donal Lennihan and Hugh Cahill mentioned it in commentary.

From memory it was something like...

"We spoke to Graham Henry on the sideline yesterday and he mentioned about 5 players that he thought Joe persisted with too long. I'm not going to name any names but I was shocked when he said it"

These are the most capped players in order with ages afterwards.

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 119 caps CAPTAIN 37
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 91 caps 33
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 90 caps 32
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 83 caps 34
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 77 caps 32
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 73 caps 30
Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 69 caps 33
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 59 caps 30


All over 30 however we can eliminate Cronin as he didn't play in the WC

Take your pick out of the other 7 because no one else is either over 30 or had more than 50 caps going into the tournament.

Personally I don't think 8 players over 30 is a lot in a squad of 31. I am struggling to find 5 that I would have left at home even with hindsight.

If I had to choose I would definitely keep Healy.

Conor Murray has been in bad form since his injury and the rumour was that McGrath pushed him hard for his place. But he is only 30 and was one of the top scrum halves in the world pre injury.

O'Mahony is also just 30 and with 59 caps is hardly ready to be put out to pasture. I am in the group of people who doesn't see why he is an automatic starter for Ireland but no way I'd leave him at home.

Sexton similarly is only a year from winning player of the year. Yes he is 34 but should have had plenty in the tank for the WC tbf.

Earls at 32 for a winger is knocking on but who else was shooting the lights out on the wing?

Kearney at 33 should have enough in the tank for a WC positional sense etc fairly unmatched.

Best was a gamble and probably his captaincy swung it. I don't think he let us down though.

I don't see any clear options that were shouting to be included. The biggest shock pre tournament was the absence of Devin Toner.

Perhaps Henry meant that Joe should have jettisoned some of them a year or two out to keep it fresh.

Fair enough you did get the feeling that Joe wanted to keep his lads in place that were tried and tested for his last tournament, but again.... World player of the year and his halfback partner? Really? Just dump them?



Of the bolded group of players, I would only have POM, Cronin, Healy, Sexton and Murray in the Six Nations squad, and unless there are big changes in form before then, only Sexton starting.

POM and Murray are no longer international level.
Healy is still is still good enough to start.
Cronin on the bench on the bench possibly.
Sexton on the bench possibly.
The one rider I would add to my view of Sexton is that neither McGrath or Murray had good RWCs and that is bound to have had an impact on Sexton's performances.
Hopefully JGP will make a difference.
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Re: JS v RB

Postby Oldschool » November 1st, 2019, 11:17 am

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
Xanthippe wrote:Wow, I started this thread because I thought Ross Byrne was being harshly treated and ‘dismissed’ by some posters but I honestly never intended or expected it to turn into a Sexton bashing thread.

The only reason I did the comparison between the two was to illustrate the similarities in their progressions at the start of their careers - in the hope that some might be prepared to be a little more patient with Ross - after all if Dr Phil hadn’t been injured at the start of the Munster match .........


It was a good idea for a thread and hopefully it'll become a good discussion at some stage but unfortunately the board has gone a bit mental recently.

If you do a comparison of two players then it's going to include the good and bad aspects of both players.
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Re: JS v RB

Postby Xanthippe » November 1st, 2019, 11:26 am

Jonny tight lips wrote:.
And while it is impossible to know for sure what would of happened if Dr. Phil hadn’t of been injured that day since he was leaving anyway and there was no sign of a replacement it is reasonable to assume that Sexton would of taken over the next season and little else would of changed.


But that’s exactly the point - we’ll never know what might have happened with Sexton if Felipe hadn’t been injured but we’ll also never know what might have happened with Byrne if Johnny had come off injured against Toulouse after 20/25 minutes and had never played for Leinster again.
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Re: JS v RB

Postby Flash Gordon » November 1st, 2019, 1:59 pm

ronk wrote:
Flash Gordon wrote:
Don't get the impatience point, nobody is suggesting getting rid of the lad rather that he's not there yet. The point is that our standard is and should be winning the Champions Cup and having the players and coaching that entails. Any player that isn't there yet is on a journey to get there, that's what elite sport is all about isn't it?


Setting a bar that requires a young player to be better than Farrell is not helpful.

Ross Byrne was rushed into the team when 3 outhalves ahead of him were injured. He managed well enough that we were able to save our season. He later played well enough that he got ahead of Carbery and got into the mix for the RWC. He almost made it.

I dont agree with people who'd have him ahead of Sexton in a big game but the fact that this conversation is occurring shows how far he has come.

He improved and expanded his game in the last year, hopefully he can continue. If others improve more and can get ahead of them then great (for Leinster), but they have a long way and rugby is still a squad game.


It doesn't matter whether you or I think the bar is helpful or not, when Leinster take the field against Saracens that is the bar for the team, the coaches and the players. If you meet the standard you compete, if you don't, you don't compete. Johnny will be around for another year or 2 and there is plenty of time for Ross Byrne, his brother and Frawley to develop so hopefully we will have a fight for the 10 spot then between 3 excellent outhalves but we aren't there yet (as i think you say).
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Re: JS v RB

Postby Twist » November 2nd, 2019, 1:44 pm

Oldschool wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:
johng wrote:[quote="wixfjord"]
And can you point me to where Henry said that? You've said it twice now and I don't recall that comment.

Donal Lennihan and Hugh Cahill mentioned it in commentary.

From memory it was something like...

"We spoke to Graham Henry on the sideline yesterday and he mentioned about 5 players that he thought Joe persisted with too long. I'm not going to name any names but I was shocked when he said it"

These are the most capped players in order with ages afterwards.

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 119 caps CAPTAIN 37
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 91 caps 33
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 90 caps 32
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 83 caps 34
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 77 caps 32
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 73 caps 30
Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 69 caps 33
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 59 caps 30


All over 30 however we can eliminate Cronin as he didn't play in the WC

Take your pick out of the other 7 because no one else is either over 30 or had more than 50 caps going into the tournament.

Personally I don't think 8 players over 30 is a lot in a squad of 31. I am struggling to find 5 that I would have left at home even with hindsight.

If I had to choose I would definitely keep Healy.

Conor Murray has been in bad form since his injury and the rumour was that McGrath pushed him hard for his place. But he is only 30 and was one of the top scrum halves in the world pre injury.

O'Mahony is also just 30 and with 59 caps is hardly ready to be put out to pasture. I am in the group of people who doesn't see why he is an automatic starter for Ireland but no way I'd leave him at home.

Sexton similarly is only a year from winning player of the year. Yes he is 34 but should have had plenty in the tank for the WC tbf.

Earls at 32 for a winger is knocking on but who else was shooting the lights out on the wing?

Kearney at 33 should have enough in the tank for a WC positional sense etc fairly unmatched.

Best was a gamble and probably his captaincy swung it. I don't think he let us down though.

I don't see any clear options that were shouting to be included. The biggest shock pre tournament was the absence of Devin Toner.

Perhaps Henry meant that Joe should have jettisoned some of them a year or two out to keep it fresh.

Fair enough you did get the feeling that Joe wanted to keep his lads in place that were tried and tested for his last tournament, but again.... World player of the year and his halfback partner? Really? Just dump them?



Of the bolded group of players, I would only have POM, Cronin, Healy, Sexton and Murray in the Six Nations squad, and unless there are big changes in form before then, only Sexton starting.

POM and Murray are no longer international level.
Healy is still is still good enough to start.
Cronin on the bench on the bench possibly.
Sexton on the bench possibly.
The one rider I would add to my view of Sexton is that neither McGrath or Murray had good RWCs and that is bound to have had an impact on Sexton's performances.
Hopefully JGP will make a difference.[/quote]

I think Marmion & Cooney are the form 9s in Ireland, though I accept that may be temporary


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Re: JS v RB

Postby desperado » November 2nd, 2019, 1:50 pm

Flash Gordon wrote:
ronk wrote:
Flash Gordon wrote:
Don't get the impatience point, nobody is suggesting getting rid of the lad rather that he's not there yet. The point is that our standard is and should be winning the Champions Cup and having the players and coaching that entails. Any player that isn't there yet is on a journey to get there, that's what elite sport is all about isn't it?


Setting a bar that requires a young player to be better than Farrell is not helpful.

Ross Byrne was rushed into the team when 3 outhalves ahead of him were injured. He managed well enough that we were able to save our season. He later played well enough that he got ahead of Carbery and got into the mix for the RWC. He almost made it.

I dont agree with people who'd have him ahead of Sexton in a big game but the fact that this conversation is occurring shows how far he has come.

He improved and expanded his game in the last year, hopefully he can continue. If others improve more and can get ahead of them then great (for Leinster), but they have a long way and rugby is still a squad game.


It doesn't matter whether you or I think the bar is helpful or not, when Leinster take the field against Saracens that is the bar for the team, the coaches and the players. If you meet the standard you compete, if you don't, you don't compete. Johnny will be around for another year or 2 and there is plenty of time for Ross Byrne, his brother and Frawley to develop so hopefully we will have a fight for the 10 spot then between 3 excellent outhalves but we aren't there yet (as i think you say).

+1. Too soon to be writing off Sexton. Not just Saracens; but the 6N is also a relevant bar for players.
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Re: JS v RB

Postby Twist » November 2nd, 2019, 9:34 pm

Twist wrote:
Oldschool wrote:
neiliog93 wrote:[quote="johng"][quote="wixfjord"]
And can you point me to where Henry said that? You've said it twice now and I don't recall that comment.

Donal Lennihan and Hugh Cahill mentioned it in commentary.

From memory it was something like...

"We spoke to Graham Henry on the sideline yesterday and he mentioned about 5 players that he thought Joe persisted with too long. I'm not going to name any names but I was shocked when he said it"

These are the most capped players in order with ages afterwards.

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 119 caps CAPTAIN 37
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 91 caps 33
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 90 caps 32
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 83 caps 34
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 77 caps 32
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 73 caps 30
Sean Cronin (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 69 caps 33
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 59 caps 30


All over 30 however we can eliminate Cronin as he didn't play in the WC

Take your pick out of the other 7 because no one else is either over 30 or had more than 50 caps going into the tournament.

Personally I don't think 8 players over 30 is a lot in a squad of 31. I am struggling to find 5 that I would have left at home even with hindsight.

If I had to choose I would definitely keep Healy.

Conor Murray has been in bad form since his injury and the rumour was that McGrath pushed him hard for his place. But he is only 30 and was one of the top scrum halves in the world pre injury.

O'Mahony is also just 30 and with 59 caps is hardly ready to be put out to pasture. I am in the group of people who doesn't see why he is an automatic starter for Ireland but no way I'd leave him at home.

Sexton similarly is only a year from winning player of the year. Yes he is 34 but should have had plenty in the tank for the WC tbf.

Earls at 32 for a winger is knocking on but who else was shooting the lights out on the wing?

Kearney at 33 should have enough in the tank for a WC positional sense etc fairly unmatched.

Best was a gamble and probably his captaincy swung it. I don't think he let us down though.

I don't see any clear options that were shouting to be included. The biggest shock pre tournament was the absence of Devin Toner.

Perhaps Henry meant that Joe should have jettisoned some of them a year or two out to keep it fresh.

Fair enough you did get the feeling that Joe wanted to keep his lads in place that were tried and tested for his last tournament, but again.... World player of the year and his halfback partner? Really? Just dump them?



Of the bolded group of players, I would only have POM, Cronin, Healy, Sexton and Murray in the Six Nations squad, and unless there are big changes in form before then, only Sexton starting.

POM and Murray are no longer international level.
Healy is still is still good enough to start.
Cronin on the bench on the bench possibly.
Sexton on the bench possibly.
The one rider I would add to my view of Sexton is that neither McGrath or Murray had good RWCs and that is bound to have had an impact on Sexton's performances.
Hopefully JGP will make a difference.[/quote]

I think Marmion & Cooney are the form 9s in Ireland, though I accept that may be temporary


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

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Re: JS v RB

Postby dropkick » November 3rd, 2019, 9:17 am

Carbery and Harry Byrne are the future. There are more coming through but they're the stand out talents.


Anyone question Carbery must not have been watching him last season. Munsters best player in Europe, controlled the tight away match against Exeter like a veteran 10 and went a few months without missing a kick. He was also the best player on the pitch against Italy before he got injured and he hasn't received from that injury.


Harry Byrne has something Ross doesn't, speed. It's not that Harry is a speedster but Ross moves at a snails pace. It's a major disadvantage especially as the game is getting faster. Harry is not the finished product yet but he has all the skills and great vision.
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Re: JS v RB

Postby fourthirtythree » November 3rd, 2019, 11:39 am

Carbery was not, in reality, that good last season.

One stand out performance against a beaten pack is nothing to be hanging the future on. Ireland weren't great with him on either.
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Re: JS v RB

Postby hugonaut » November 3rd, 2019, 12:55 pm

dropkick wrote:Carbery and Harry Byrne are the future. There are more coming through but they're the stand out talents.


Anyone question Carbery must not have been watching him last season. Munsters best player in Europe, controlled the tight away match against Exeter like a veteran 10 and went a few months without missing a kick. He was also the best player on the pitch against Italy before he got injured and he hasn't received from that injury.


Harry Byrne has something Ross doesn't, speed. It's not that Harry is a speedster but Ross moves at a snails pace. It's a major disadvantage especially as the game is getting faster. Harry is not the finished product yet but he has all the skills and great vision.


Duncan Williams controlled the away game against Exeter, Carberry was hardly in it.

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Possessions: 104
Kick: 13
Pass: 85
Run: 6 [for 1 CB, 2 DBs and 27m]

Joey Carbery
Possessions: 21
Kick: 5
Pass: 11
Run: 5 [for o CB, 0 DBs and 12m]
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Re: JS v RB

Postby Serb » November 3rd, 2019, 1:27 pm

Yeah, Carbery may or may not be the future, but I wouldn’t be citing the Exeter away game as the making of him. I thought he was pretty poor in that game and his kick that went the length of the field and dead giving Exeter a scrum 20m out in the center of the pitch should have cost them the game.
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