Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby johng » November 19th, 2019, 9:06 am

I think you might be mixing up your joshes.

A murphy and a vdf
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Twist » November 19th, 2019, 1:22 pm

wixfjord wrote:My side for this would be:

Healy, Kelleher, Porter, Ryan, Toner, Fardy, VDF, Ruddock, McGrath, Sexton, Lowe, Henshaw, Ringrose, Larmour, RK
Dooley, Tracy, Furlong/Bent, Molony, Deegan, JGP, R Byrne, ROL

Doris didn't take his opportunity yesterday for me, but not sure I'd want to throw Deegan in against a French side away either.
Their pitch is quite sticky I believe so might be a slower game than we'd like, which is why I'd go for a pack like that.


I see the attraction of having Fardy, Toner, Ryan & Ruddock all in the starting pack but you lose a fair bit of grunt from the bench

It might work against Lyon though. They didn’t look hugely fit against Northampton
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby carlow man » November 19th, 2019, 4:03 pm

I was listening to the first half of that match on the radio and chris Ashton was co commentating. He was saying that after 25 mins the Lyon forwards were out of breath and struggling to keep up with the pace of the game. Bernarď Jackman was saying last week that Lyon are one of the fittest teams in the top 14. Must be some seriously unfit teams this year in France then!!
We need to keep the ball moving as much as poss. Even taking quick lineouts and getting set early in scrums to keep the pressure on is needed!!
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby wixfjord » November 19th, 2019, 4:39 pm

Twist wrote:
wixfjord wrote:My side for this would be:

Healy, Kelleher, Porter, Ryan, Toner, Fardy, VDF, Ruddock, McGrath, Sexton, Lowe, Henshaw, Ringrose, Larmour, RK
Dooley, Tracy, Furlong/Bent, Molony, Deegan, JGP, R Byrne, ROL

Doris didn't take his opportunity yesterday for me, but not sure I'd want to throw Deegan in against a French side away either.
Their pitch is quite sticky I believe so might be a slower game than we'd like, which is why I'd go for a pack like that.


I see the attraction of having Fardy, Toner, Ryan & Ruddock all in the starting pack but you lose a fair bit of grunt from the bench

It might work against Lyon though. They didn’t look hugely fit against Northampton


But surely the point is you would start with a lot of grunt on the pitch?

Plus they had a 6'5 and a 6'3 second row last week. With those four in our pack we should pick that apart.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby wixfjord » November 19th, 2019, 5:35 pm

Lyon v Leinster
@ Matmut Stade de Gerland
Referee: Luke Pearce (England)
Assistant referees: Hamish Smales (England), Tim Wigglesworth (England)
TMO: Graham Hughes (England)
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 19th, 2019, 7:14 pm

Since we knew the Pools for the Champions Cup, I've been keeping an eye on Lyons results via Midi Olympique or L'Equipe. There are some learnings from their results:
LOU v Stade: 43-9 on 24th Aug
LOU v Toulouse: 22-12 on 1st Sept
Toulon v LOU: 6-20 on 7th Sept
LOU v Brive: 59-3 on 14th Sept
Racing v LOU: 20-31 on 29th Sept
LOU v Beg Bord: 25-23 on 6th Oct
LOU v Pau: 27-8 on 12th Oct
Clermont v LOU: 24-15 on 20th Oct
LOU v La Roch: 45-17 on 10th Nov

The two significant results were the 24 - 15 LOSS against Clermont, in which Clermont scored 8 penalties against 5 pens for LOU in Clermont and the 25-23 Win against Begles Bordeaux in which Bordeaux scored two tries and 3 pens.

Their pitch is generally heavy and greasy (and this Season has been particularly wet in Lyon). Clermont (in Clermont) took every penalty opportunity available and never went for a line-out maul from a penalty. Bordeaux were the only team who threatened Lyon at home and they ran everything from the first minute.

No doubt Leo and his analysts have been examining their displays in close detail since the beginning of the Season. What is clear from the match reports is that you allow Lyon OU dominate you up front at your peril. Stade, Brive and La Rochelle all tried the "light-touch" approach and got shredded. So prepare for a first quarter of trench warfare.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Jonny tight lips » November 19th, 2019, 8:42 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:I want to see James Ryan, Dev & Fardy in starting pack to attack their lineout. But I also want Ruddock & Josh. So Rhys to No 8 and Josh & Fardy on the flanks.

This Lyon pack must be stopped on the gain line and put to ground. Strong scrum but weak lineout. Mess up lineout and maul disintegrates.

Right wing, I'm happy with Larmour or Adam with RK at full-back.



If we’re not gonna play Max at 8 with Conan and Doris injured what’s the point in having him. If he doesn’t play him he’ll be off to Munster in the summer
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby wixfjord » November 19th, 2019, 8:53 pm

If Deegan fits the gameplan and is in good form he should start.

If he doesn't (and personally I don't think he does, but that's not up to me), then he shouldn't.

The decision to start a player should be based on many other things before you get to 'if I don't play him he might get contrary and leave in a huff'.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Jonny tight lips » November 19th, 2019, 9:26 pm

wixfjord wrote:If Deegan fits the gameplan and is in good form he should start.

If he doesn't (and personally I don't think he does, but that's not up to me), then he shouldn't.

The decision to start a player should be based on many other things before you get to 'if I don't play him he might get contrary and leave in a huff'.


I wasn’t implying we should take that into account, more saying it could happen. I think he’s shown enough to get a start, he rarely gets an opportunity at 8 surrounded by the first team. Having Fardy on the bench is a huge asset also.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby ronk » November 19th, 2019, 9:34 pm

Jonny tight lips wrote:
wixfjord wrote:If Deegan fits the gameplan and is in good form he should start.

If he doesn't (and personally I don't think he does, but that's not up to me), then he shouldn't.

The decision to start a player should be based on many other things before you get to 'if I don't play him he might get contrary and leave in a huff'.


I wasn’t implying we should take that into account, more saying it could happen. I think he’s shown enough to get a start, he rarely gets an opportunity at 8 surrounded by the first team. Having Fardy on the bench is a huge asset also.


Munster have Stander (& Botha). We don't need to worry about Deegan going there. He could look elsewhere.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby hugonaut » November 19th, 2019, 10:02 pm

wixfjord wrote:If Deegan fits the gameplan and is in good form he should start.

If he doesn't (and personally I don't think he does, but that's not up to me), then he shouldn't.

The decision to start a player should be based on many other things before you get to 'if I don't play him he might get contrary and leave in a huff'.


It's [unfortunately] a realistic appraisal and one of the issues that LC and SL have to deal with in selection. Leinster players have shown time and again that they will back their ability and move to a different province - Jack McGrath, Jordi Murphy, Joey Carbery, Andrew Conway, Cian Kelleher etc. Deegan is a former U20 World Player of the Year - the only Irish player ever to win that award. With a CV like that, the market for him isn't just other provinces ... it's the whole northern hemisphere professional game.

Guys like him don't come around that often, and to my mind, we're not quite optimising his development. We're not doing a bad job, but we're not really giving him the push that other players [Ringrose or Ross Byrne, for example, or Kelleher at the moment] have previously got. The guy has so much footballing and athletic ability, and at 193cm and 108kg he's got the frame to be a test No8 - he could probably do will 2-3kg extra, but that will come in time; he's only just turned 23. And he's way ahead of where Conan was at the same age, he's played more than twice as many games and scored more than twice as many tries.

Slipping behind Doris in the pecking order must irritate him, but he has been extremely diplomatic and positive about it in interviews. To be honest, I'd have forgiven him if he had let slip his frustrations in public last season, because Doris always got to play his favourite position, was learning on the job and didn't always impress.

To move somebody out of position to No8 when Deegan did an impressive job off the bench [he carried for the most metres of any forward on either team] would be a proverbial slap in the face: "we'll pick somebody who doesn't play the position just so long as we don't have to play you."

It'd be poor management. Moving players around the backrow isn't something we need to do, and didn't work out for us the last time we tried it [Leavy at No8 vs Bath]. Max has got 50+ Leinster appearances to his name, was Leinster's Young Player of the Year last season and was U20 WPOTY three years ago. Picking him at No8 is a no-brainer for me.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby wixfjord » November 19th, 2019, 10:25 pm

Don't understand this line of thinking personally.

Deegan has no god given right to be a starter, and his performances this year have been mixed at very best (and at times lazy if you're being harsh).

You pick players who are in form and are the best for the job, you don't pick a guy because he may throw his toys out of the pram or because he has certain past accolades.

Playing a team that may be better equipped to beat Lyon away is not 'poor management'. It's the opposite.

If Leo et al think Deegan is best equipped to do that then fine, but the reason shouldn't be based on some of the stuff you've mentioned.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby curates_egg » November 19th, 2019, 10:27 pm

I always look forward to seeing Hugonaut as the latest reply, as you inevitably post the most insightful but also sensible stuff.
Absolutely baffling that there is even a serious debate about playing players in a position they don’t play instead of a player of Deegan’s talent.
If the coaches were to do it, I would be astonished. And, while I would be devastated to lose a player like Deegan, I would believe he should leave as soon as he can.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby wixfjord » November 19th, 2019, 10:30 pm

curates_egg wrote:I always look forward to seeing Hugonaut as the latest reply, as you inevitably post the most insightful but also sensible stuff.
Absolutely baffling that there is even a serious debate about playing players in a position they don’t play instead of a player of Deegan’s talent.
If the coaches were to do it, I would be astonished. And, while I would be devastated to lose a player like Deegan, I would believe he should leave as soon as he can.


If that is actually Max Deegan's mentality, then yes I'd agree, he should leave as soon as he can.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Oldschool » November 19th, 2019, 10:37 pm

Deegan/Doris is really only a conundrum this season.
Fardy is unlikely to be here next season.
In addition, management may well see Doris as an out and out 8 whereas Deegan has demonstrated flexibility already, a handy attribute in a 23 player squad.
It's easy to see the argument for starting Ruddock.
A case of gnarled over aesthetics.
One will start and one will bench, nothing to get too worked up about at this stage.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby ronk » November 19th, 2019, 10:38 pm

I think more of Deegan that he's carried his versatility load so well.

It's been good for the team and good for him overall. I don't have any concerns about him vs Lyon.

His footwork is so good in defence and attack, he can take on a physical team that trys to go through you and he can hurt them back playing an expansive game.

I think we need to back him rather than playing guys out of position. Fardy or Ruddock give plenty of impact from the bench, and you want that in France.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby ronk » November 19th, 2019, 10:55 pm

wixfjord wrote:
curates_egg wrote:I always look forward to seeing Hugonaut as the latest reply, as you inevitably post the most insightful but also sensible stuff.
Absolutely baffling that there is even a serious debate about playing players in a position they don’t play instead of a player of Deegan’s talent.
If the coaches were to do it, I would be astonished. And, while I would be devastated to lose a player like Deegan, I would believe he should leave as soon as he can.


If that is actually Max Deegan's mentality, then yes I'd agree, he should leave as soon as he can.


Deegan has been a model pro. All the more reason we'd want to keep him. He shouldnt lose out because he's been doing a job in the system and letting others have opportunities.

Carbery said all the right things until he was about to leave. McGrath, Murphy were Leinster through and through, careers get in the way. We can't afford to ignore the risks, even for guys who want to be here.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Jonny tight lips » November 19th, 2019, 11:58 pm

ronk wrote:
Jonny tight lips wrote:
wixfjord wrote:If Deegan fits the gameplan and is in good form he should start.

If he doesn't (and personally I don't think he does, but that's not up to me), then he shouldn't.

The decision to start a player should be based on many other things before you get to 'if I don't play him he might get contrary and leave in a huff'.


I wasn’t implying we should take that into account, more saying it could happen. I think he’s shown enough to get a start, he rarely gets an opportunity at 8 surrounded by the first team. Having Fardy on the bench is a huge asset also.


Munster have Stander (& Botha). We don't need to worry about Deegan going there. He could look elsewhere.


How many scrumhalves did they have when they swooped for Nick? Come to think of it they had a boat load of 10s when they got Joey. Munster arnt happy until they a project player and a Leinster player in every position.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » November 20th, 2019, 12:13 am

ronk wrote:I think more of Deegan that he's carried his versatility load so well.

It's been good for the team and good for him overall. I don't have any concerns about him vs Lyon.



If it had been good for him then he would have been called up to replace Conan in Japan. I'd say he's miles off where he expected to be in terms of his Ireland career and as Hugo pointed out, picking Leavy at 8 against Bath must have been a real kick in the teeth for him.

I think this should be all moot for this week because he was excellent against Connacht and excellent again off the bench on Saturday so to my mind he 100% deserves to be starting this week.

It's funny, he arguably grabbed the last two chances with both hands and yet we didn't see his handling skills at all really. I still think of that game last season where he set up three tries (I think) with some brilliant passes. As much as he needs to add consistency we also need to find a way to get the best out of him.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby wixfjord » November 20th, 2019, 10:08 am

ronk wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
curates_egg wrote:I always look forward to seeing Hugonaut as the latest reply, as you inevitably post the most insightful but also sensible stuff.
Absolutely baffling that there is even a serious debate about playing players in a position they don’t play instead of a player of Deegan’s talent.
If the coaches were to do it, I would be astonished. And, while I would be devastated to lose a player like Deegan, I would believe he should leave as soon as he can.


If that is actually Max Deegan's mentality, then yes I'd agree, he should leave as soon as he can.


Deegan has been a model pro. All the more reason we'd want to keep him. He shouldnt lose out because he's been doing a job in the system and letting others have opportunities.

Carbery said all the right things until he was about to leave. McGrath, Murphy were Leinster through and through, careers get in the way. We can't afford to ignore the risks, even for guys who want to be here.


Do you think Deegan 'should leave as soon as he can' if he doesn't start at the weekend?

I think that's a bit hysterical.
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