Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby fourthirtythree » November 20th, 2019, 10:21 am

I don't think you should reply to Ronk there because, quite literally, he did not say that. It's misleading to reply to him.

I thought he was really good last weekend too (as was Doris!) the Leavy one was a bit... off at the time. The maddest selection decision last season along with, no worse than, Henshaw at full back.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby wixfjord » November 20th, 2019, 10:40 am

fourthirtythree wrote:I don't think you should reply to Ronk there because, quite literally, he did not say that. It's misleading to reply to him.



Yes fair enough I misread that!

To clarify, personally I'd be veering towards Ruddock at 8 because of his bulk and lineout ability on a sticky French pitch against a big pack with a poor lineout. I think it's a pragmatic selection that would get Fardy & Ruddock onto the pitch in a game that we may need both.

I wouldn't have an issue with Deegan at 8 and Fardy benching, as Max has been much improved over the last two games and I can see the argument for needing a bit of bench impact.

But I do have an issue with the idea that he 'deserves' to start (or indeed that he should leave if he doesn't! :lol: )
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby riocard911 » November 20th, 2019, 11:11 am

hugonaut wrote:
wixfjord wrote:If Deegan fits the gameplan and is in good form he should start.

If he doesn't (and personally I don't think he does, but that's not up to me), then he shouldn't.

The decision to start a player should be based on many other things before you get to 'if I don't play him he might get contrary and leave in a huff'.


It's [unfortunately] a realistic appraisal and one of the issues that LC and SL have to deal with in selection. Leinster players have shown time and again that they will back their ability and move to a different province - Jack McGrath, Jordi Murphy, Joey Carbery, Andrew Conway, Cian Kelleher etc. Deegan is a former U20 World Player of the Year - the only Irish player ever to win that award. With a CV like that, the market for him isn't just other provinces ... it's the whole northern hemisphere professional game.

Guys like him don't come around that often, and to my mind, we're not quite optimising his development. We're not doing a bad job, but we're not really giving him the push that other players [Ringrose or Ross Byrne, for example, or Kelleher at the moment] have previously got. The guy has so much footballing and athletic ability, and at 193cm and 108kg he's got the frame to be a test No8 - he could probably do will 2-3kg extra, but that will come in time; he's only just turned 23. And he's way ahead of where Conan was at the same age, he's played more than twice as many games and scored more than twice as many tries.

Slipping behind Doris in the pecking order must irritate him, but he has been extremely diplomatic and positive about it in interviews. To be honest, I'd have forgiven him if he had let slip his frustrations in public last season, because Doris always got to play his favourite position, was learning on the job and didn't always impress.

To move somebody out of position to No8 when Deegan did an impressive job off the bench [he carried for the most metres of any forward on either team] would be a proverbial slap in the face: "we'll pick somebody who doesn't play the position just so long as we don't have to play you."

It'd be poor management. Moving players around the backrow isn't something we need to do, and didn't work out for us the last time we tried it [Leavy at No8 vs Bath]. Max has got 50+ Leinster appearances to his name, was Leinster's Young Player of the Year last season and was U20 WPOTY three years ago. Picking him at No8 is a no-brainer for me.


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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Flash Gordon » November 20th, 2019, 11:15 am

Generally speaking, it's best to pick a guy who plays the position of course. We didn't against Bath away last year and I think it's fair to say that blew up in our face (even though we won the match).

All this stuff about players leaving if they aren't picked for this weekend is bizarre. Leo will pick the right players for THIS game and THESE conditions - if I remember rightly, the Lyon pitch is pretty heavy.

One thing the coaches have been consistent on is picking the players they think are right for the next match. Example being Joey at 15. The IRFU were clear that they wanted Joey at 10 but the coaches kept picking him at 15 and Ross Byrne at 10 because they believed that was the right thing to do.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby offshorerules » November 20th, 2019, 1:18 pm

Given the size of the Lyon pack I'd be quite surprised if Ruddock is not picked.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Twist » November 20th, 2019, 2:59 pm

I don't think we can overlook the importance of replacements in this match. If Lyon lose here then they're probably out of it, so I'd expect a big performance from them - which means 80 minutes of attrition. They're not as aerobically fit as us, so we should probably keep them moving as long as possible. Their forwards won't keep up with ours in an endurance test.

To that end, I'd be happy to have Deegan starting and Ruddock or Fardy on the bench. We need to have a sledgehammer we can bring on just as they're getting tired. In fact, if we were ever to try a 6-2 split this might be the game for it.

Once the game is under way, I think we need to create good ruck separation between phases. Keep them doing 20 metre shuttle runs from ruck to ruck on their heavy pitch. They'll fatigue first.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby paddyor » November 20th, 2019, 6:30 pm

wixfjord wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:I don't think you should reply to Ronk there because, quite literally, he did not say that. It's misleading to reply to him.



Yes fair enough I misread that!

To clarify, personally I'd be veering towards Ruddock at 8 because of his bulk and lineout ability on a sticky French pitch against a big pack with a poor lineout. I think it's a pragmatic selection that would get Fardy & Ruddock onto the pitch in a game that we may need both.

I wouldn't have an issue with Deegan at 8 and Fardy benching, as Max has been much improved over the last two games and I can see the argument for needing a bit of bench impact.

But I do have an issue with the idea that he 'deserves' to start (or indeed that he should leave if he doesn't! :lol: )

IIRC we tried Ruddock at 8 before with no great success and also at Lock vs Saints a few years ago.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby cormac » November 20th, 2019, 7:01 pm

Ruddock has started 16 matches at 8 for Leinster but none in any of the European matches and none in any competition since a win away to Connacht in April 2017. Nearly all of his starts at No.8 have been during international breaks. He did start once in the second row in Europe but the less said about that match the better.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby hugonaut » November 20th, 2019, 7:51 pm

Flash Gordon wrote:Generally speaking, it's best to pick a guy who plays the position of course. We didn't against Bath away last year and I think it's fair to say that blew up in our face (even though we won the match).

All this stuff about players leaving if they aren't picked for this weekend is bizarre. Leo will pick the right players for THIS game and THESE conditions - if I remember rightly, the Lyon pitch is pretty heavy.

One thing the coaches have been consistent on is picking the players they think are right for the next match. Example being Joey at 15. The IRFU were clear that they wanted Joey at 10 but the coaches kept picking him at 15 and Ross Byrne at 10 because they believed that was the right thing to do.


It's a case of the general magnified to the particular, but the principle is sound.

Players leave Leinster, and they leave because they're not selected for a certain level of game, for example, Heineken Cup games. It's why Jack left, it's why Jordi left and it's why Conway left. Two of those were allowed to break contract to leave. I'm not privy to their inner thoughts, but it seems likely that if you are left out of teams or squads here and there, the idea comes into your head that you need to be playing more frequently at the higher level ... and then if you don't make a particular team/matchday squad, it's the tipping point. You talk to their agent about sounding out other options, and it goes from there.

Nucifora has shown that he's more than happy to let Leinster suffer by allowing [and sometimes encouraging] players to break contract. We have a very efficient academy and a higher standard of young player than any other province, so if a dissatisfied Leinster player moves to another provinces, it gets more players into the mix [from Nucifora's perspective]. We can/will replace from within whereas the other provinces will – in 90% of circumstances – immediately look for a foreign player to fill the gap. So he's probably happier if Leinster players move than if they stay put.

Doris was selected ahead of Deegan for the Benetton game. Conan was unequivocally first choice last season and would still be if fit, so that makes Doris second choice and Deegan third choice. There's no qualifiers there, that's as clear a pecking order as you can get. There are no other No8s in either the senior squad or the academy, so to move a guy out of position to replace him – especially after he did well off the bench against Benetton – is the sort of selection decision that would make a player ask himself if the coaches rate him at all. Sorry for repeating myself, but if people don't think that is [a] a likely train of thought or [b] a valid train of thought, then I'm not sure what else to say.

To sum up, in my opinion this sort of selection is exactly the type of situation that, if not considered with the medium term in mind, ends up with players getting the hump and examining their options. Besides, Deegan played really well against Treviso; it's not like he had a mare. Personally speaking, I'm certain the coaches will select him at No8; I think he's the best man for the job.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Dave Cahill » November 20th, 2019, 8:43 pm

Never have so many pixels been wasted on so little.

Deegan isn't going anywhere in a huff. He is likely to be picked on saturday. If he isn't for tactical reasons relating to the specific set of circumstances on saturday, he's sensible enough to realise that sometimes it's time for coursers, sometimes its time for draughts - he's not going to get in a snit about it.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Oldschool » November 21st, 2019, 10:33 am

Dave Cahill wrote:Never have so many pixels been wasted on so little.

Deegan isn't going anywhere in a huff. He is likely to be picked on saturday. If he isn't for tactical reasons relating to the specific set of circumstances on saturday, he's sensible enough to realise that sometimes it's time for coursers, sometimes its time for draughts - he's not going to get in a snit about it.

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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Twist » November 21st, 2019, 3:13 pm

Look, we have to find some way to fill the meaningless hours between one match ending and the next team announcement
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Flash Gordon » November 21st, 2019, 4:16 pm

hugonaut wrote:
Flash Gordon wrote:Generally speaking, it's best to pick a guy who plays the position of course. We didn't against Bath away last year and I think it's fair to say that blew up in our face (even though we won the match).

All this stuff about players leaving if they aren't picked for this weekend is bizarre. Leo will pick the right players for THIS game and THESE conditions - if I remember rightly, the Lyon pitch is pretty heavy.

One thing the coaches have been consistent on is picking the players they think are right for the next match. Example being Joey at 15. The IRFU were clear that they wanted Joey at 10 but the coaches kept picking him at 15 and Ross Byrne at 10 because they believed that was the right thing to do.


It's a case of the general magnified to the particular, but the principle is sound.

Players leave Leinster, and they leave because they're not selected for a certain level of game, for example, Heineken Cup games. It's why Jack left, it's why Jordi left and it's why Conway left. Two of those were allowed to break contract to leave. I'm not privy to their inner thoughts, but it seems likely that if you are left out of teams or squads here and there, the idea comes into your head that you need to be playing more frequently at the higher level ... and then if you don't make a particular team/matchday squad, it's the tipping point. You talk to their agent about sounding out other options, and it goes from there.

Nucifora has shown that he's more than happy to let Leinster suffer by allowing [and sometimes encouraging] players to break contract. We have a very efficient academy and a higher standard of young player than any other province, so if a dissatisfied Leinster player moves to another provinces, it gets more players into the mix [from Nucifora's perspective]. We can/will replace from within whereas the other provinces will – in 90% of circumstances – immediately look for a foreign player to fill the gap. So he's probably happier if Leinster players move than if they stay put.

Doris was selected ahead of Deegan for the Benetton game. Conan was unequivocally first choice last season and would still be if fit, so that makes Doris second choice and Deegan third choice. There's no qualifiers there, that's as clear a pecking order as you can get. There are no other No8s in either the senior squad or the academy, so to move a guy out of position to replace him – especially after he did well off the bench against Benetton – is the sort of selection decision that would make a player ask himself if the coaches rate him at all. Sorry for repeating myself, but if people don't think that is [a] a likely train of thought or [b] a valid train of thought, then I'm not sure what else to say.

To sum up, in my opinion this sort of selection is exactly the type of situation that, if not considered with the medium term in mind, ends up with players getting the hump and examining their options. Besides, Deegan played really well against Treviso; it's not like he had a mare. Personally speaking, I'm certain the coaches will select him at No8; I think he's the best man for the job.


Conway, Jordi and McGrath left because the coaches didn't pick them for games because they weren't the best choice for the games in which they weren't picked. Carbery left because he wasn't picked for the position the IRFU wanted him to play because the Leinster coaches thought his best position was FB and that Sexton or Byrne were better options at 10. Yes, some of these boys may leave at some point because they aren't getting enough game time but that doesn't enter the equation for a coach when he's pick the team for a game like Lyon.

I'd pick Deegan next weekend but the selection might depend on something as real and grounded as the state of the pitch.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Jonny tight lips » November 22nd, 2019, 8:55 am

If he does go Rhys, Josh, Max it will be interesting see who gets 19. Id say there would be a lot of appetite for Penny but Connors has been playing well in fairness and you get more flexibility with Josh.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby bluemagic » November 22nd, 2019, 9:07 am

Josh Murphy is on the bench (European debut if he comes on), penny is the 24th man.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby hugonaut » November 22nd, 2019, 9:23 am

bluemagic wrote:Josh Murphy is on the bench (European debut if he comes on), penny is the 24th man.


Josh has played well since the start of the season. His carrying has improved an awful lot - it must have been a real point of emphasis over the summer, because he is a very, very hardworking sort of player. Tough dude as well, doctor or not!
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 22nd, 2019, 9:37 am

Wet, wet, wet in Lyon all day tomorrow Saturday according to Meteo France this morning.
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby LeinsterLeader » November 22nd, 2019, 10:46 am

according to the indo:
Furlong
Fardy
Deegan
Henshaw
Kearney

All to start!
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby wixfjord » November 22nd, 2019, 10:47 am

Tracey obviously has a mole on the inside!
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 15663.html

According to this team looking like

Healy, Kelleher, Furlong, Ryan, Fardy, Ruddock, VDF, Deegan, McGrath, Lowe, Henshaw, Ringrose, Larmour, RK

Possible bench then of:
Dooley, Tracy, Porter, Toner, Connors??, JGP, Byrne, ROL
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Re: Lyon v Leinster R2 HCC 23 Nov 2019

Postby D4surfer » November 22nd, 2019, 10:58 am

wixfjord wrote:Tracey obviously has a mole on the inside!
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 15663.html

According to this team looking like

Healy, Kelleher, Furlong, Ryan, Fardy, Ruddock, VDF, Deegan, McGrath, Lowe, Henshaw, Ringrose, Larmour, RK

Possible bench then of:
Dooley, Tracy, Porter, Toner, Connors??, JGP, Byrne, ROL


What, no out half? Is that a cunning plan?
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