Saints away 7th December

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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby joooooe » December 9th, 2019, 12:19 pm

joooooe wrote:It looks like that site has been decommissioned, unfortunately (or certainly it's content has been).

3 mins of highlights here: https://www.epcrugby.com/video/highligh ... r-rugby-2/

If anyone has anything more substantial please let us know!
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » December 9th, 2019, 12:22 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:Do we care what teams from other leagues think of us or our league? And if so, why?


I don't care what they think, but I do wish everyone else took Europe as seriously as we do. It can feel a bit empty when Irish teams have big wins because other teams don't always take it seriously e.g. Ulster against Clermont recently. I think the onus should be on them to change though, not us. We (the Irish teams) have our house in order and it's up to them to catch up, not for us to be dragged down. Scrapping relegation would be a big help.

Having said all that, Saracens are bunch of cheating b$&%@#ds and that has skewed things in a few different ways so swings and roundabouts.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby OTT » December 9th, 2019, 12:32 pm

They have a little bit of an online mentality of until we can make the teams that can beat us shitter we should just take our ball and go home, they should try and benchmark themselves against teams like Exeter, Saracens, Toulouse, us etc instead of wanting to hammer the worst Leicester team in my living memory (ever??) every week with a full strength side out. It is very defeatist and reactionary because if you read the posts last week a lot of them thought they could win and of course they very much could have and might next week like back in 2013, that is sport. Try to be better not make other teams worse.

I say online because in person they were respectful, complimentary and very enjoyable company so one or two posters on these type of pages can make it look like there is a mob but really there is not.

For what it is worth I thought the scoreline flattered us but three weeks on the road in a row and we played with the same intensity without the ball no matter what personnel we had playing that is good coaching and a desire to keep working for each other. If they were willing to go to the well a bit more then they did the scoreline would have been a lot closer. Fingers crossed for a win next week.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » December 9th, 2019, 12:37 pm

I'd forgotten that Saints were top of the premiership as I was watching the game, but it really is quite extraordinary that we scored 7 tries against them away from home. And that was despite a sloppy first half that we were all giving out about on here! Imagine someone coming to the RDS and doing that to us?
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby OTT » December 9th, 2019, 12:42 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I'd forgotten that Saints were top of the premiership as I was watching the game, but it really is quite extraordinary that we scored 7 tries against them away from home. And that was despite a sloppy first half that we were all giving out about on here! Imagine someone coming to the RDS and doing that to us?


They were top in 2013 as well if I remember rightly and further into the season (I think they were undefeated as well). Sport can kick you in the balls when you least expect it, I would take any sort of win this weekend.

Sacrlets must have put 7 or 8 trys on us back in 2008 or 2009 at the RDS in a league match I think Ferg did his knee in it. I can't remember another match like that at home. Xan or Cormac probably have the stats.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby fourthirtythree » December 9th, 2019, 12:48 pm

While the scoreline flattered us at the weekend it absolutely did not flatter Scarlets or how shite we were that day...

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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby domhnallj » December 9th, 2019, 12:56 pm

OTT wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I'd forgotten that Saints were top of the premiership as I was watching the game, but it really is quite extraordinary that we scored 7 tries against them away from home. And that was despite a sloppy first half that we were all giving out about on here! Imagine someone coming to the RDS and doing that to us?


They were top in 2013 as well if I remember rightly and further into the season (I think they were undefeated as well). Sport can kick you in the balls when you least expect it, I would take any sort of win this weekend.

Sacrlets must have put 7 or 8 trys on us back in 2008 or 2009 at the RDS in a league match I think Ferg did his knee in it. I can't remember another match like that at home. Xan or Cormac probably have the stats.


Wasps at home in the heino a few years back? Can't remember the score as my brain refuses to access the memory.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby Edna Kenny » December 9th, 2019, 1:05 pm

OTT wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I'd forgotten that Saints were top of the premiership as I was watching the game, but it really is quite extraordinary that we scored 7 tries against them away from home. And that was despite a sloppy first half that we were all giving out about on here! Imagine someone coming to the RDS and doing that to us?


They were top in 2013 as well if I remember rightly and further into the season (I think they were undefeated as well). Sport can kick you in the balls when you least expect it, I would take any sort of win this weekend.

Sacrlets must have put 7 or 8 trys on us back in 2008 or 2009 at the RDS in a league match I think Ferg did his knee in it. I can't remember another match like that at home. Xan or Cormac probably have the stats.


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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby Flash Gordon » December 9th, 2019, 1:08 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:Do we care what teams from other leagues think of us or our league? And if so, why?


I don't care what they think, but I do wish everyone else took Europe as seriously as we do. It can feel a bit empty when Irish teams have big wins because other teams don't always take it seriously e.g. Ulster against Clermont recently. I think the onus should be on them to change though, not us. We (the Irish teams) have our house in order and it's up to them to catch up, not for us to be dragged down. Scrapping relegation would be a big help.

Having said all that, Saracens are bunch of cheating b$&%@#ds and that has skewed things in a few different ways so swings and roundabouts.


When teams don't turn up or don't care that's a problem for the integrity of the tournament. Which could impact it's future and/or it's commercial value.

The argument against Leinster is bizarre. We are a good team and a good club because we bring players through a system from U7's to the professional team. This seems to be viewed as somehow unfair by teams spending massive amounts of money on foreign imports. We beat Glasgow away last week because we have brought through a a big squad of strong players. Glasgow won away in France this weekend, they are a good side but the lads stepping up are very good players.

I think the crux of the issue is that they know they can't replicate a good system because it would take 10 years and because of the way their league is set up on player transfers. London Irish invested heavily in their academy and once the players had a year or 2 in the first team they got poached without compensation.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby riocard911 » December 9th, 2019, 2:13 pm

joooooe wrote:
joooooe wrote:It looks like that site has been decommissioned, unfortunately (or certainly it's content has been).

3 mins of highlights here: https://www.epcrugby.com/video/highligh ... r-rugby-2/

If anyone has anything more substantial please let us know!


Rugbylist is still working fine. It's just the opening blogspot page that has been decommisioned.

This

http://www.rugbylist.ws/LAST_30_DAY_lis ... agesize=-1

is the the page I'm logged in on, so for me it's not showing the login bit, but rather the regular 30 day list of of games, which is huge. Should this link, for anyone else who clicks it, display the list, I would appreciate it, if they could log out and log in under a new name.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby Keith » December 9th, 2019, 2:43 pm

wixfjord wrote:I think it's a little bit one eyed of us to assume that the level of competition in the Pro14 is the same as the Prem, and there is definitely an ability to rest players more in our league.

Part of that is because we have a bigger squad with quality players, part of it is IRFU mandated and part of it is just that the league is less competitive overall since the quality of team is slightly worse and there's no relegation pressures.

The Pro 14 is every bit as competitive as the AP and that's proven time and time again in Europe. Glasgow going away to win in la Rochelle is an unbelievable performance for a team supposedly on the wain. Did the Northampton fans forget that they should have lost or at least drew away to Benneton a couple of weeks ago were it not for some shambolic refeering gifting them a chance of a winning penalty kick after the 80 was up.

Saracens have won 5 out of the last 6 titles. How does this constitute a competitive league? Let's not pretend Leinster wouldn't have a similar record if they dumped us into the prem. There's just as many average teams in that league as ours.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby wixfjord » December 9th, 2019, 2:49 pm

Keith wrote:The Pro 14 is every bit as competitive as the AP and that's proven time and time again in Europe.Glasgow going away to win in la Rochelle is an unbelievable performance for a team supposedly on the wain. Did the Northampton fans forget that they should have lost or at least drew away to Benneton a couple of weeks ago were it not for some shambolic refeering gifting them a chance of a winning penalty kick after the 80 was up.

Saracens have won 5 out of the last 6 titles. How does this constitute a competitive league? Let's not pretend Leinster wouldn't have a similar record if they dumped us into the prem. There's just as many average teams in that league as ours.


That isn't the same thing (and in fact it sort of supports one of the points about Pro14 teams being able to target Europe more than GP teams).

Darren Cave made a very good point on this the other day that I think gets to the heart of the problem.

The best in the Pro14 are more than a match for the best in the GP.

The worst in the Pro14 (Dragons, Kings, Ospreys, Zebre etc) are a good bit below the bottom of the GP.

I think we completely ignore the impact relegation has on a competition. 'Competitiveness' is only a factor in getting into the playoffs and Europe in the Pro14, the bottom teams have little to play for.

In the GP because of relegation literally every game has incrementally more riding on it. The simple fact is without the threat of relegation, and with 6 sides getting into the playoffs instead of 4 in the GP, there's incrementally less riding on each game in the Pro14.

Irish guys who have played in both leagues have said this too - the threat of relegation has a huge impact on a team. DOC and Madigan for two examples.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby St.Kenneth » December 9th, 2019, 2:51 pm

It’s always so much easier to say it’s the refs fault, the other team cheating, the rules are unfair blah blah blah than to actually say my team weren’t good enough.

We were always unlikely to win against such a strong side with such experience. If we had won, then it would have been a massive shock.

It’s obvious that there are some teams within your league and in France who are just way ahead of anything the Premiership can put forward (unless you decide to break the fundamental rules that govern our league, eh Salarycens?)

I have no issue in saying your side are stronger than mine, but you give us something to aspire to.

Really lovely to hear nice stories from those who came over. Don’t think some keyboard warrior represents the majority of us. We like good rugby and we can appreciate it when it’s played by us and against us.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby Keith » December 9th, 2019, 3:03 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Keith wrote:The Pro 14 is every bit as competitive as the AP and that's proven time and time again in Europe.Glasgow going away to win in la Rochelle is an unbelievable performance for a team supposedly on the wain. Did the Northampton fans forget that they should have lost or at least drew away to Benneton a couple of weeks ago were it not for some shambolic refeering gifting them a chance of a winning penalty kick after the 80 was up.

Saracens have won 5 out of the last 6 titles. How does this constitute a competitive league? Let's not pretend Leinster wouldn't have a similar record if they dumped us into the prem. There's just as many average teams in that league as ours.


That isn't the same thing (and in fact it sort of supports one of the points about Pro14 teams being able to target Europe more than GP teams).

Darren Cave made a very good point on this the other day that I think gets to the heart of the problem.

The best in the Pro14 are more than a match for the best in the GP.

The worst in the Pro14 (Dragons, Kings, Ospreys, Zebre etc) are a good bit below the bottom of the GP.

I think we completely ignore the impact relegation has on a competition. 'Competitiveness' is only a factor in getting into the playoffs and Europe in the Pro14, the bottom teams have little to play for.

In the GP because of relegation literally every game has incrementally more riding on it. The simple fact is without the threat of relegation, and with 6 sides getting into the playoffs instead of 4 in the GP, there's incrementally less riding on each game in the Pro14.

Irish guys who have played in both leagues have said this too - the threat of relegation has a huge impact on a team. DOC and Madigan for two examples.
If we can't judge teams by how they perform against each other in Europe how else can we tell the standard of the leagues? It's the only time they play against each other.

If you're in a relegation battle then how in the world do you think your team would have any chance in winning either of the European cups? Yes relegation may affect some teams performance in Europe... teams that had no chance of winning it anyway.

In terms of teams you have named as supposedly well below the bottom GP teams. Zebre have beaten the likes of Wuss and Bristol in Euorpe in recent times. Lumping the Ospreys in with those teams because they are having one bad season is ridiculous.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » December 9th, 2019, 3:13 pm

You're really missing the point here Keith. If you're in a dogfight in your league week in week out then obviously you're going to be at a disadvantage when you come up against a team that's fresher.

That said, I think this is more a Leinster "problem" than a league one. The other provinces can't rest players like we can. The advantage we have is really highlighted by games like Glasgow last week and then our frontliners battering Northampton on their patch.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby wixfjord » December 9th, 2019, 3:18 pm

Keith wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
Keith wrote:The Pro 14 is every bit as competitive as the AP and that's proven time and time again in Europe.Glasgow going away to win in la Rochelle is an unbelievable performance for a team supposedly on the wain. Did the Northampton fans forget that they should have lost or at least drew away to Benneton a couple of weeks ago were it not for some shambolic refeering gifting them a chance of a winning penalty kick after the 80 was up.

Saracens have won 5 out of the last 6 titles. How does this constitute a competitive league? Let's not pretend Leinster wouldn't have a similar record if they dumped us into the prem. There's just as many average teams in that league as ours.


That isn't the same thing (and in fact it sort of supports one of the points about Pro14 teams being able to target Europe more than GP teams).

Darren Cave made a very good point on this the other day that I think gets to the heart of the problem.

The best in the Pro14 are more than a match for the best in the GP.

The worst in the Pro14 (Dragons, Kings, Ospreys, Zebre etc) are a good bit below the bottom of the GP.

I think we completely ignore the impact relegation has on a competition. 'Competitiveness' is only a factor in getting into the playoffs and Europe in the Pro14, the bottom teams have little to play for.

In the GP because of relegation literally every game has incrementally more riding on it. The simple fact is without the threat of relegation, and with 6 sides getting into the playoffs instead of 4 in the GP, there's incrementally less riding on each game in the Pro14.

Irish guys who have played in both leagues have said this too - the threat of relegation has a huge impact on a team. DOC and Madigan for two examples.
If we can't judge teams by how they perform against each other in Europe how else can we tell the standard of the leagues? It's the only time they play against each other.

If you're in a relegation battle then how in the world do you think your team would have any chance in winning either of the European cups? Yes relegation may affect some teams performance in Europe... teams that had no chance of winning it anyway.

In terms of teams you have named as supposedly well below the bottom GP teams. Zebre have beaten the likes of Wuss and Bristol in Euorpe in recent times. Lumping the Ospreys in with those teams because they are having one bad season is ridiculous.


You can judge the relative performance, but the point is that literally because one league is more competitive than the other it's not the exact picture, particularly for sides who are struggling in the league or playing in the Amlin. They're clearly not focused or can't afford to target Europe to the same extent we do.

Northampton fans are right when they say Pro14 teams can afford to rest players in the league more than any GP team can. And we do.

Part of the reason is because the GP is a dogfight and every game has something riding on it. In our league that's not the case.

That's not a sleight on us, but it is reality.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby Dave Cahill » December 9th, 2019, 3:38 pm

Competitiveness isn't quality though, its just competitiveness. DOC's view of the Premiership was mentioned earlier, he also said that because of the cut-throat nature of the league, the quality suffered. Teams and players become risk-averse and skills suffer because they are under-utilised.

Relegation in the Premiership is one of the excuses English rugby likes to use when their sides are losing. When they're winning, it morphs into one of the reasons why they're winning.

It could just be that relegation has f%~k all to do with it. The reality is that every English club would vote to get rid of relegation in the morning - as long as they were on the right side of the line.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby St.Kenneth » December 9th, 2019, 4:02 pm

The clubs may want to get rid of relegation, but as a supporter I wouldn’t want to.

We got relegated as did Quinn’s and it gave us the chance to reorganise and restructure our club and when we came back both of us won the Premiership within a few years. I’m sure relegation would give Leicester the chance to rebuild and refresh things.

The real issue is how everyone’s squads are put together. Our salary cap is lower than the French and to be honest I’m not sure what constraints if any you guys have in assembling your squads. We may whinge about the cap but that’s the facts so we either have to accept it or abolish it.

As much as I’d love to win the HEC again I also want a Premiership where clubs like Worcester and Irish, are as equally competitive as those with sugar daddies like Bath and Bristol. It can’t be a coincidence that the only club from the Premiership that has been successful in recent years in the HEC is the one who bypassed the Premiership’s wage cap.

Rugby is largely a loss making business and the wage cap means that sides don’t go way beyond their fiscal limits to try and buy success (apart from Saracens). Without the cap, you’ll not only find the Premiership will be won every season by the likes of Bristol, Bath and Sarries, but sides like Saints and Leicester could fall way behind and possibly go bust.

Each league is setup within different boundaries and it’s those differences that make the Champions Cup skewed.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » December 9th, 2019, 4:15 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:Competitiveness isn't quality though, its just competitiveness. DOC's view of the Premiership was mentioned earlier, he also said that because of the cut-throat nature of the league, the quality suffered. Teams and players become risk-averse and skills suffer because they are under-utilised.

Relegation in the Premiership is one of the excuses English rugby likes to use when their sides are losing. When they're winning, it morphs into one of the reasons why they're winning.

It could just be that relegation has f%~k all to do with it. The reality is that every English club would vote to get rid of relegation in the morning - as long as they were on the right side of the line.


Relegation is clearly a valid reason for why their clubs aren't in tip top shape in Europe, but the flip side is that Saracens (albeit by cheating) are the European champions and England managed to make the World Cup final. So there was no lack of quality there.

The reality is that every Union, club etc has their own set of objectives. We prioritise the national team and Europe and it works pretty well for us, but others are happy to do what ever they want. There are a whole host of reasons why teams fail or succeed, but as others have said it's not our business what others do, it's up to them to sort themselves out and catch up.
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Re: Saints away 7th December

Postby joooooe » December 9th, 2019, 4:15 pm

riocard911 wrote:
joooooe wrote:
joooooe wrote:It looks like that site has been decommissioned, unfortunately (or certainly it's content has been).

3 mins of highlights here: https://www.epcrugby.com/video/highligh ... r-rugby-2/

If anyone has anything more substantial please let us know!


Rugbylist is still working fine. It's just the opening blogspot page that has been decommisioned.

This

http://www.rugbylist.ws/LAST_30_DAY_lis ... agesize=-1

is the the page I'm logged in on, so for me it's not showing the login bit, but rather the regular 30 day list of of games, which is huge. Should this link, for anyone else who clicks it, display the list, I would appreciate it, if they could log out and log in under a new name.


That's terrific, thanks.
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