England and France plan to take over Euro rugby

[conman]

England and France plan to take over Euro rugby Mar 12 2006




Simon Roberts, Wales on Sunday


THE English and French clubs look poised to boycott next season's Heineken Cup.

The big-money English and French clubs have made a bid to change the "Paris Accord" agreement that underpins European rugby.

And those changes are directly aimed at the Celtic nations' participation in the tournament.

Under the controversial proposals the Welsh, Scottish and Irish sides face being stripped of qualification places in European rugby's showpiece event.

The Paris Accord, which governs the organisation of the Heineken Cup, expires in June 2007.


But at a meeting in Dublin on Tuesday, the English and French dropped their bombshell that they want to take charge of the tournament.


Those plans include Heineken Cup qualification from the Guinness Premiership, the French Championship and the Celtic League, been equalled up.


Now six English and French clubs can qualify from their respective leagues, while nine sides qualify from the Celtic League.


The English and French want the same number of sides to qualify from each domestic competition.


Currently three Irish provinces, three Welsh regions, two Scottish districts and a play-off spot are up for the grabs for the Celtic League.


But the English and French clubs claim the likes of Toulouse, Stade Francais, Leicester Tigers and London Wasps are the big draws in the competition and attract the big-name sponsors and TV deals.


The Celtic nations blocked any new moves to change the current format of the Heineken Cup for next season.


Serge Blanco, the French clubs' chief, also proposed ripping up the governing body of the Heineken Cup with the big-money clubs taking charge of the tournament.


That produced a backlash from nearly all quarters and the Welsh, Scottish and Irish rugby unions all opposed to handing the tournament to the English and French clubs.


The French and Italian governing bodies rejected the plans, but the England's RFU refused to vote.


The Welsh regions, Irish provinces and Scottish districts all receive the bulk of their funding from their respective governing bodies.


But the failure of the Welsh and Scottish sides in Europe over the last few seasons has strengthened the hand of the English and French clubs.


Only Ireland were able to dismiss their claims, with Munster and Leinster regular Heineken Cup quarter-finalists.


A new agreement is needed before the start of next season's tournament.


The next meeting has been arranged for April 11, and there is ittle doubt that the prospect of the English and French clubs boycotting the 2007/08 Heineken Cup is now a very real threat.

Source http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/...

[crumlinbob]

Just a couple of things spring to mind straight away. It is Irish sides which have continually set new attendence records for the Heineken Cup. Will the inclusion of 'lesser' English and French sides result in more performance like Leeds, Saracens and Bourgoin who have hardly set the competition alight. If this article is correct it is a very worrying trend which we unfortunately have seen before from English rugby, in particular. Their previous stance where they thought they were above the Six Nations looks laughable now. Leave the greed at home and lets get on with playing the game.

[Flash Gordon]

Just a couple of things spring to mind straight away. It is Irish sides which have continually set new attendence records for the Heineken Cup. Will the inclusion of 'lesser' English and French sides result in more performance like Leeds, Saracens and Bourgoin who have hardly set the competition alight. If this article is correct it is a very worrying trend which we unfortunately have seen before from English rugby, in particular. Their previous stance where they thought they were above the Six Nations looks laughable now. Leave the greed at home and lets get on with playing the game.

True. If you're Leicester Tigers or Toulouse, do you want to be playing Munster, Leinster and the Scarlets; or would you rather play Worcester or Agen?

[conman]

I often wonder if some of the teams mentioned even want a competitive game. Would they be happy just to win a trophy with possibly only 1 or 2 decent opponents in a 9 game competition. Surely it's not worthwhile winning that way.

[StuF]

if anything good comes of this it may be that the welsh might realise that their chums in England don't care two fuks about them

[jezzer]

This looks like the usual English tactic of threatening something radical in order to squeeze more money/favours/concessions out of competition organisers.

They're trying to reduce the number of non-GP/Top 14 games the players are playing while still getting more of the Euro kitty - ie cake and eating it stuff.

Load of boll*x and the other unions should hold fast.

[Fred Funk]

Yes the Celtic League is one league. but it comprises 3 6Nations Unions Ireland,Scotland and Wales.

What a pathetic argument.

Reducing the number of celtic teams and increasing the number of French and English would just cause duplication. It would end up with French and English teams playing each other in both their domestic league and Europe.

If it is not broke why fix it?
Attendance records and viewing figures increase every year

[epaddy]

Yes the Celtic League is one league. but it comprises 3 6Nations Unions Ireland,Scotland and Wales.

What a pathetic argument.

Reducing the number of celtic teams and increasing the number of French and English would just cause duplication. It would end up with French and English teams playing each other in both their domestic league and Europe.

If it is not broke why fix it?
Attendance records and viewing figures increase every year

The point is Fred it is broke. The HEC doesn’t generate half the money it should. The AWC clubs get more money for participating in their Exhibition comp then the HEC. This could be just what the CL needed. What it is now is effectively 3 mini leagues disguised as one. It would make it as a viable league, that and some terrestrial coverage in Ireland. Step up RTE there is a market out there more than 800,000 watched the England game

[Uncle Mort]

The point is Fred it is broke. The HEC doesn’t generate half the money it should. The AWC clubs get more money for participating in their Exhibition comp then the HEC. This could be just what the CL needed. What it is now is effectively 3 mini leagues disguised as one. It would make it as a viable league, that and some terrestrial coverage in Ireland. Step up RTE there is a market out there more than 800,000 watched the England game

For the CL to thrive this has got the be the way forwards - increase its size by admitting the Italians and then you only qualify depending on how well you do in the League. To ensure that not only one country qualifies you have two more places available for HEC than the largest number from one country - so that would be six. The CL can only survive if it's a real league. As it is we're in reality playing for nothing and the Sponsors recognise that and the English and French are coming to realise it to. You can not gain unless you are prepared to give something up in the process. As is it may be cosy for us - but in the harsh commercial world such cosiness can not last much longer.

[crumlinbob]

Lets say the Celtic League includes Italian clubs. Four rugby unions in one league. Qualification for the HC from the new Celtic League would be what exactly? Top six teams? If u want a real league thats what you will get. So lets imagine who the top six teams would be. Maybe three Irish (at the moment) , two Welsh and one Scots. This would change of course as it got more competitive. So maybe only one Irish team might qualify in the future. If the ERC want to promote rugby in europe they must have involvement from as much of the countries as possible. The HC is a great competition, not because the of the top French and English sides but becauyse there is involvement from many countries. I travelled to Treviso a few years back and had a great time. That year Treviso were unlucky not to qualify for the quarter finals. Watching the English playing French continually will not attract bigger audiences.

[Dave Cahill]

What the celtic league needs now, more than anything, is a period of stability. It has yet to go through two seasons unchanged. This year the Celtic League has been superb, with some excellent rugby (and admittedly some not so excellent). Talk of bringing Italian clubs in is tokenism. If the Italian league feels it needs to combine, then it should do so with the T14.

[Flash Gordon]

The Italians would be made to enter the Celtic League with the proviso that they forfeit the right to automatic qualification for the Big Show. Their costs would increase dramatically due to travel etc and their income could actually decrease - I'm sure they'd be reluctant to swap Tigers, Turnipstan and Toulouse for the Borders, Connaught and the Dragons.....

[CM]

The CL can only survive if it's a real league. As it is we're in reality playing for nothing and the Sponsors recognise that and the English and French are coming to realise it to.

Why should the English or French care about the quality of our league? Since when has that mattered? Every year a couple of French or English teams don't compete to the best of their ability in the HEC. However the CL and Italian teams always fight in every match. They might be outclassed but they never give up in the manner that Bourgoin and others have in the past. And our league doesn't affect the quality of our top challengers either. There'd usually be 2 CL teams, sometimes 3 qualifying for the QFs.

All this is about is the English and French wanting more places in the competition and more money for their clubs. They couldn't care less about the CL or the quality of team we're providing. They're just using the CL to argue that we have a disproportionate amount of teams, completely ignoring that those teams were set up (or used, if you want) so that we could compete on a level playing field with the English and French.

If anything the English and French should lose teams. At least then we'll have every team in the HEC trying to win, even if they're not that good.

[crumlinbob]

This argument has come about as a direct result of Stade Francais failing to qualify for the quarter finals. Its all about money. For the top teams to stay at the top they require huge sums of money!

[Uncle Mort]

The CL can only survive if it's a real league. As it is we're in reality playing for nothing and the Sponsors recognise that and the English and French are coming to realise it to.

Why should the English or French care about the quality of our league? Since when has that mattered? Every year a couple of French or English teams don't compete to the best of their ability in the HEC. However the CL and Italian teams always fight in every match. They might be outclassed but they never give up in the manner that Bourgoin and others have in the past. And our league doesn't affect the quality of our top challengers either. There'd usually be 2 CL teams, sometimes 3 qualifying for the QFs.

All this is about is the English and French wanting more places in the competition and more money for their clubs. They couldn't care less about the CL or the quality of team we're providing. They're just using the CL to argue that we have a disproportionate amount of teams, completely ignoring that those teams were set up (or used, if you want) so that we could compete on a level playing field with the English and French.

If anything the English and French should lose teams. At least then we'll have every team in the HEC trying to win, even if they're not that good.

but our league is not credible - we have no sponsor and we're out on a limb when it comes to TV coverage - if our league was a proper competitive league then a) we'd have a sponsor and good TV so more money for us and b) the English and French would have no argument here. As it has the top English and French teams have to grind out a qualification place whilst we in the Celtic Fringe hand them out like confetti to almost all and sundry. From their viewpoint this can not appear as fair.

When this sort of argument comes around in my view it works best if you look at it from the complainant's view point and not our snug and lofty summit.

[Dave Cahill]

The CL can only survive if it's a real league. As it is we're in reality playing for nothing and the Sponsors recognise that and the English and French are coming to realise it to.

Why should the English or French care about the quality of our league? Since when has that mattered? Every year a couple of French or English teams don't compete to the best of their ability in the HEC. However the CL and Italian teams always fight in every match. They might be outclassed but they never give up in the manner that Bourgoin and others have in the past. And our league doesn't affect the quality of our top challengers either. There'd usually be 2 CL teams, sometimes 3 qualifying for the QFs.

All this is about is the English and French wanting more places in the competition and more money for their clubs. They couldn't care less about the CL or the quality of team we're providing. They're just using the CL to argue that we have a disproportionate amount of teams, completely ignoring that those teams were set up (or used, if you want) so that we could compete on a level playing field with the English and French.

If anything the English and French should lose teams. At least then we'll have every team in the HEC trying to win, even if they're not that good.

but our league is not credible - we have no sponsor and we're out on a limb when it comes to TV coverage - if our league was a proper competitive league then a) we'd have a sponsor and good TV so more money for us and b) the English and French would have no argument here. As it has the top English and French teams have to grind out a qualification place whilst we in the Celtic Fringe hand them out like confetti to almost all and sundry. From their viewpoint this can not appear as fair.

When this sort of argument comes around in my view it works best if you look at it from the complainant's view point and not our snug and lofty summit.

Whatever about sponsors, we have the exact same level of coverage as the GPL. Couple of live games on a subscription channel...a magazine programme would be nice though

[dodger]

Completely agree with whoever said its all about stade francais not qualifying. It is not enough for the french and the english to have 3 clubs each in the quarter-finals of the heineken cup!! the french have their own league - not all of the french teams can qualify for the qf's of the heineken cup. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING! it is a EUROPEAN COMPETITION not a Franglais comp!

glad i got that off my chest...

and as for the italians joining the celtic league here's a hint why that wont happen - they are ITALIAN! no more celtic than penguins!

[epaddy]

The Italians dont offer the CL anything. Please god they never get in

[ad nauseam]

FFS We have always had one or two teams consistently in the knockout stages of the European Cup. Given that we've only three teams in the goddamned tournament to begin with, that ain't a bad return. What's proposed seems to be based on an impression that it's only English and French teams that get to the knockout stages. We might be the only Celtic nation that has teams in the knockout stages at the moment but in five years' time it might be Welsh or Scottish. The Celtic league is a good way of bringing on talent and improving teams. It mightn't be the prettiest of rugby at times but it's no more boring and frequently more interesting than the much hyped GPL or the French domestic league. That it hasn't attracted corporate interest has nothing to do with anything being inherently wrong with the CL itself. Let it run a few years and see.

[epaddy]

FFS We have always had one or two teams consistently in the knockout stages of the European Cup. Given that we've only three teams in the goddamned tournament to begin with, that ain't a bad return. What's proposed seems to be based on an impression that it's only English and French teams that get to the knockout stages. We might be the only Celtic nation that has teams in the knockout stages at the moment but in five years' time it might be Welsh or Scottish. The Celtic league is a good way of bringing on talent and improving teams. It mightn't be the prettiest of rugby at times but it's no more boring and frequently more interesting than the much hyped GPL or the French domestic league. That it hasn't attracted corporate interest has nothing to do with anything being inherently wrong with the CL itself. Let it run a few years and see.

Thats just plain wrong