D'Arcy called up

[leinsterlank]

delighted for the darce!!Roberts and himself are in great form so injury allowing it should be a great duel between the two for the 12 jersey!!He will play on saturday, the time difference is minimal and altitude smaltitude quite frankly. Even if he can only survive 60 minutes he'll play.GO'On ya good thing!

[eddiedempsey]

anyone heard anything from "the squeeze" and his several "on good authority" posts that D'arcy will never get picked for the lions again in leinster addicts???

[stalkerno2]

Congratulations to Darce, totally deserved to be there!!!!!

[suisse]

Eh, Fran Cotton is the only successful manager of a professional Lions tour. As such, I'd give his opinion quite a lot of weight actually - certainly more weight than the manager of a team that got whitewashed in the tests [NZ05] or contrived to lose the series to an inferior team having been one up and in a commanding position in the second test [AUS01].

I don't think that in Cotton's case 'the games and tours they went on are a million miles from anything the current squad are doing': he was in charge of a professional tour in the same country [SA]; same coach [McGeechan]; similar duration [not going there on a f*cking steamship and coming back home via Japan for a laugh]; same number of tests [3]; same status of the opposition being world champions and Lions being heavy underdogs; similar squad-size [not Woodward's bringing half the Guinness Premiership] ... they even have one of the same players in Simon Shaw!

So, quite frankly, I don't think that he's being asked about something 'completely removed from his vintage': he's the most recent manager of a successful Lions tour to South Africa, and the only manager of a successful professional Lions tour. It was twelve years ago, which is not all that long in Lions terms. The major differences in the game are predominantly to do with substitutions, but aside from that, rugby from 1997 is pretty recognisable today.

As for your question, "Who is Fran Cotton to a generation of rugby fans in the UK and Ireland now?": I just don't get it. He's an extremely well-known figure in NH rugby - be it for his pretty awesome career as a player, his success as Lions manager, or maybe even as the founder of Cotton Traders, who are still a well-known name in terms of clothing, gear and equipment. If a load of kids or Johnny-Come-Lately fans – I don't know who you mean when you refer to 'a generation of fans' – don't know who he is, maybe they should look at the 97 DVD or read a book about the Lions. He's a pretty important part of Lions history.

I'm not saying this to have a dig at you Suisse, just putting across my side of the argument.

I'm a big D'Arcy fan, and am delighted for him to be called up to the Lions – he's really hitting form, and should be a great benefit to the squad. I don't necessarily agree with Cotton's viewpoint, but he has every right to state his opinion, even if people on this board don't like hearing it. Having a differing opinion [especially coming from a substantial base of knowledge] doesn't make him a 'has-been' or a 'liar' who talks 'a load of boll¡x'. FFS ...

The Lions tour of 1997 could be argued as the first Lions tour of the pro era, or the last of the amateur era. Yes, technically, it occured 2 years after the game changed, but how many players finished their careers immediately after that tour, and their careers mirrored an amateur player - left Union to earn money in League, returned late on for another big pay cheque? His role was Team Manager, as you rightly point out, but not a player. There is a difference.

However, I think you have totally misinterpretated what I said about changes between his time, and these days. I wasn't talking about 1997, I was talking about Fran as a player 32 years ago talking about a player who has the demands of the professional game firmly placed his shoulders today. A man with a record of serious injuries. His is completely different to D'arcy's, hence I'd rather listen to the guys mentioned below. If Fran Cotton was a player during those turbulent, testing times of the early pro era, when there was talk of player revolts and walk outs, then fine, let him have it. But his international career ended 24 years before D'arcy refused to play for the Lions.

Fran Cotton toured New Zealand in 1977 - twenty years before being the team manager. The Lions played 26 matches, and 4 tests, from early May to late August. They concluded their tour after the 4th test with a defeat in Suva, against Fiji. Are you honestly telling me that's not a long way off what we see today? In 1974 to South Africa, they played 22 matches, in what is now three different countries (SA, Zimbabwe and Namibia). There were also 4 tests. His successful 1997 brought with it 35 players for a much shorter tour. The similarities are almost the same with 2009, but from his playing days, they are from 'a completely different vintage'.

That's the key thing: I was talking all along about Fran Cotton as a player, and not Fran Cotton as a Manager.

He played in the amateur era, and briefly had a prominent role during the evolving stages of the professional era. I, personally, would much rather hear the opinions of guys whose careers started during that spell, and, say, recently retired. The likes of Paul Wallace, Eric Miller and Will Greenwood. Apart from his successful clothing company, what else has Fran done in the professional game? And with regards to the 'johnny-come-lately', well, everyone has to start somewhere, and these are probably the people keeping the Lions tours alive by keeping the merchandise off the shelves and their backs.

I never said he wasn't entitled to opinion, and I never called him a liar, or stated what he said as being "a load of bollix". He can say what he wants, but my point was that I'd be much more inclined to listen to someone who knows touring as part of a professional tour as a player, than a guy like Cotton.

[Dave Cahill]

. Having a differing opinion [especially coming from a substantial base of knowledge] doesn't make him a 'has-been' or a 'liar' who talks 'a load of boll¡x'. FFS ...

Telling lies and talking b*%&!x does however.

[jhc99]

The whole 2005 stuff is a load of lies and b*%&!x from Cotton and Woodward. Darce got stamped on near the end of the auckland match, for which Tuitupu got a 6 week ban, and got a shoulder injury from it. He wasn't fit to play the next match. Anyone who believes the Cotton/Bald story is simply intellectually subnormal.

I don't know D'Arcy but I really rate him as a player and I was delighted to see him get called up to the Lions. After his gruesome injury, from which I didn't think he'd fully recover, his form in the latter part of the season has been tremendous. I do know someone who was on the last lions tour and is on this one and he has said that D'Arcy chose not to play. Now this decision can be labeled as a well deserved two fingers to Woodward for messing him around, or as a demonstration of weakness depending on where your sympathies lie. Plenty of people in a similar situation would have told Woodward to 'shove it'.

If, of course, D'Arcy has told you himself that what Cotton (about as well respected a person as you can get in rugby circles and president of the very worthwhile charity Wooden Spoon) and Woodward (a clown) have said is lies than I will take it all back.

[suisse]

Also, didn't Fran Cotton leave a Lions tour early from a suspected heart attack? Must have been Australia. I would have thought he'd choose his words more carefully considering D'arcy's long history of injury

[jhc99]

Also, didn't Fran Cotton leave a Lions tour early from a suspected heart attack? Must have been Australia. I would have thought he'd choose his words more carefully considering D'arcy's long history of injury

It was pericarditis, somewhat more serious than fatigue.

[hugonaut]

That's the key thing: I was talking all along about Fran Cotton as a player, and not Fran Cotton as a Manager.

Fair enough, we're arguing different points and are thus unlikely to agree ... unless one of us has Obama-esque debating talents. And that ain't me ...

You differentiate between his stint as a player and as a manager, and fair enough, it's a legit viewpoint: I'm looking at him as a guy who was both a successful amateur player and a successful professional manager for the Lions. He's the same person after all, just with experience piled up on experience – he's not just speaking as a guy who was an ex-player, or a guy who once managed a team, but a guy who did both, with a level of success that few have achieved. It's also interesting to listen to somebody who has been successful outside of rugby as well as within rugby [and the Lions have had notable success stories like AJF and Ray McLoughlin], because they know the intangible elements of what it takes to succeed.

I can see why you'd prefer to listen to somebody who has undergone a professional Lions tour as a player. It'd be a very worthwhile insight if somebody could give you a forthright, all-inclusive, honest and insightful look inside what goes on in a Lions tour – unfortunately, I don't see it. Players largely maintain a 'goes on tour/stays on tour' ethos - that's why Living with Lions is so interesting and revealing, because you're generally not privy to those scenes once you're outside the set-up. Those players who do speak out are normally remorseless self-publicists [I'm looking at you Austin and Daws], who are too wrapped up in themselves to give an accurate picture of the tour.

(Funnily enough, I think the amateur-era players were far more able to relate their experiences as Lions [see if you can get your hands on The Victorious Lions about the '71 tour to New Zealand, or How The Lions Won about the '71 and '74 victories – both long out of print, but very interesting and enjoyable reads]: they had more spare time and were far more rounded individuals than professional players. Furthermore, there were people from all over Ireland and Britain coming from vastly different backgrounds, so the social dynamic was composed of a far wider and frankly more interesting cross section of rugby players than today's tours. That's probably why the books are good ...)

Basically, Suisse, like I've said before, I'm delighted that D'Arcy has got the call. My point is that just because Fran Cotton says something about a Leinster player that people don't like, it doesn't make him some sort of obsolete mouthpiece who doesn't know his amateur arse from his professional elbow. He has more of an insight into Lions Tours – amateur and professional – than anybody on this board has [unless Willie Yawn is lurking somewhere], so he's probably worth listening to. You don't have to agree with him, but saying that he's not relevant or that he doesn't know what he talking about is, I respectfully suggest, wrong.

[suisse]

hugonaut, I like what you have been saying, and whilst I don't agree with it all, you certainly make better points than most people.

I just want to query these two points;

I can see why you'd prefer to listen to somebody who has undergone a professional Lions tour as a player. It'd be a very worthwhile insight if somebody could give you a forthright, all-inclusive, honest and insightful look inside what goes on in a Lions tour – unfortunately, I don't see it. Players largely maintain a 'goes on tour/stays on tour' ethos - that's why Living with Lions is so interesting and revealing, because you're generally not privy to those scenes once you're outside the set-up. Those players who do speak out are normally remorseless self-publicists [I'm looking at you Austin and Daws], who are too wrapped up in themselves to give an accurate picture of the tour.

Basically, Suisse, like I've said before, I'm delighted that D'Arcy has got the call. My point is that just because Fran Cotton says something about a Leinster player that people don't like, it doesn't make him some sort of obsolete mouthpiece who doesn't know his amateur arse from his professional elbow. He has more of an insight into Lions Tours – amateur and professional – than anybody on this board has [unless Willie Yawn is lurking somewhere], so he's probably worth listening to. You don't have to agree with him, but saying that he's not relevant or that he doesn't know what he talking about is, I respectfully suggest, wrong.

I don't know about you, but I have really enjoyed listening to Will Greenwood since the Tour started. I'm not overly interested in the stories about 'what stay on tour' etc, but the way he talks about his Lions experiences after a tough season with Leicester and/or Quins is good. Ugo Monye was revealing some of the less than exciting stories yesterday (apparently Andy Powell does wax his legs )

You obviously haven't rad my other posts here throughout the season....? (not that you should, either haha). But I hate that mentality that you can't say anything negative about Leinster. The whole pre-semi final talk was on that level (Daire O'Brien is a w&%ker because he doesn't doesn't Leinster, but supports Munster; Gerry Thornley is a turn coat etc). The criticism individual Leinster players received back in December was justified.

What we do agree on is......... Gordon D'arcy; delighted for him, and I hope he takes his chance. Will be a really tough task removing Jamie Roberts, who, club alliegience aside, more than deserves that 12 spot, at the moment!

[hugonaut]

You make a lot of valid points yourself!

Monye has impressed me when he's featured on Rugby Club – understated, dry sense of humour, obviously sharp as a tack and pretty modest.

Really liked Greenwood as a player, and while he can occasionally come off as David Cameron, he has a great understanding of the game and is a good communicator. It'd be interesting to see him pitched in with the Irish panel of McGurk, Pope et al, a la Graham Souness and RTÉ: I don't have any massive axe to grind with Sky's coverage [and actually think that Lazenby is a very good anchor], but I wouldn't mind a little more vigour in their analysis. They don't have to employ a contrarian in the mould of Hook or Dunphy, but sometimes the constant agreeing with each other just ... gently ... washes ... over ... you ... and you can't really remember anything they have said by the time the second half kicks off.

Like you said, I think we can agree that D'Arce is well worth his late trip out, and that everyone in Leinster hopes the best for him. As you say, Jamie Roberts is in flying form, but hopefully D'Arce can put some serious pressure on him, really put his hand up for test selection and enjoy his second Lions tour.

[The Guru]

i know alot of you hate seeing sentences starting with this so if you do then you should stop reading now..

'i have it on good authority' (famous last words) that darcy has been brought out to replace earls as his shoulder injury is far worse than expected and could potentially see him out of the rest/majority of the tour. take it as you will.

[Danthefan]

i know alot of you hate seeing sentences starting with this so if you do then you should stop reading now..

'i have it on good authority' (famous last words) that darcy has been brought out to replace earls as his shoulder injury is far worse than expected and could potentially see him out of the rest/majority of the tour. take it as you will.

Well...

http://www.lionsrugby.com/news/7947.php

Lions centre Riki Flutey has been ruled out of Saturday's clash with the Cheetahs in Bloemfontein.
The England and London Wasps player still requires treatment on a knee injury he picked up after he came on as a second-half replacement in last weekend’s win over the Royal XV in Phokeng.

Having appeared for Wellington against the Lions on the 2005 tour of New Zealand, Flutey became only the second player to play both for and against the Lions in more than 120 years of touring but he will now have to wait until at least next Wednesday before pulling on the red shirt once more.

Gordon D’Arcy is a possible replacement for Flutey in the Lions’ matchday 22 after the Ireland international took part in full training today following his late call up to the squad.

Although Flutey’s minor setback will disappoint Lions head coach Ian McGeechan, there was better news for the Lions elsewhere in the backline after Keith Earls and Luke Fitzgerald were both passed fit having recovered from respective shoulder and knee / chest infection problems.

Leigh Halfpenny’s arrival in South Africa following rehabilitation on a quad injury back home in Cardiff has also boosted McGeechan’s options ahead of what is expected to be a stern challenge against another Super 14 outfit at Vodacom Park.

"Riki is continuing to get treatment but he won't be available for this weekend," said Lions assistant coach Graham Rowntree.

"It is important that we get Leigh into the tour, get him on the ground and get him playing.

"D'Arcy will possibly also possibly be in the mix at the weekend, depending on how he is."

McGeechan and tour manager Gerald Davies will name their squad to face the Cheetahs tomorrow, with the side itself and reaction to the selection being posted here on http://www.lionsrugby.com.

[suisse]

i know alot of you hate seeing sentences starting with this so if you do then you should stop reading now..

'i have it on good authority' (famous last words) that darcy has been brought out to replace earls as his shoulder injury is far worse than expected and could potentially see him out of the rest/majority of the tour. take it as you will.

Well...

http://www.lionsrugby.com/news/7947.php

Lions centre Riki Flutey has been ruled out of Saturday's clash with the Cheetahs in Bloemfontein.
The England and London Wasps player still requires treatment on a knee injury he picked up after he came on as a second-half replacement in last weekend’s win over the Royal XV in Phokeng.

Having appeared for Wellington against the Lions on the 2005 tour of New Zealand, Flutey became only the second player to play both for and against the Lions in more than 120 years of touring but he will now have to wait until at least next Wednesday before pulling on the red shirt once more.

Gordon D’Arcy is a possible replacement for Flutey in the Lions’ matchday 22 after the Ireland international took part in full training today following his late call up to the squad.

Although Flutey’s minor setback will disappoint Lions head coach Ian McGeechan, there was better news for the Lions elsewhere in the backline after Keith Earls and Luke Fitzgerald were both passed fit having recovered from respective shoulder and knee / chest infection problems.

Leigh Halfpenny’s arrival in South Africa following rehabilitation on a quad injury back home in Cardiff has also boosted McGeechan’s options ahead of what is expected to be a stern challenge against another Super 14 outfit at Vodacom Park.

"Riki is continuing to get treatment but he won't be available for this weekend," said Lions assistant coach Graham Rowntree.

"It is important that we get Leigh into the tour, get him on the ground and get him playing.

"D'Arcy will possibly also possibly be in the mix at the weekend, depending on how he is."

McGeechan and tour manager Gerald Davies will name their squad to face the Cheetahs tomorrow, with the side itself and reaction to the selection being posted here on http://www.lionsrugby.com.

Game.....set....ma.......

[The Guru]

haha guess i should also join the club of people who hate the 'i have it on good authority' phrase.

remind to to not listen to people within the 'industry' as they are some of the worst gossip mongerers around (after me of course)

[orfeo]

haha guess i should also join the club of people who hate the 'i have it on good authority' phrase.

remind to to not listen to people within the 'industry' as they are some of the worst gossip mongerers around (after me of course)

I have it on good authority that you should'nt listen to people who have it on good authority

[The Guru]

haha guess i should also join the club of people who hate the 'i have it on good authority' phrase.

remind to to not listen to people within the 'industry' as they are some of the worst gossip mongerers around (after me of course)

I have it on good authority that you should'nt listen to people who have it on good authority

lesson learnt, its just funny that this person would be wrong considering his position and proximity to the lions tour.

ah sure we all make mistakes.

[hugonaut]

From today's Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/spo ... 99927.html

"Nevertheless, the fear the Lions squad announcement might just come too early for him was compounded by a widely-held perception that he had dirtied his bib irretrievably with the Lions four years ago.

Upon announcing his Lions team and replacements for the third Test, dead rubber against the All Blacks in Auckland, Clive Woodward said D’Arcy had ruled himself out of consideration for the match on the grounds he was too exhausted. There had even been suggestions D’Arcy ought not to be picked for the Lions again after that.

Asked about this, D’Arcy admitted: “I was deeply disappointed that any rugby player, whatever about commentators or pundits, and particularly former British and Irish Lions, might suggest I would have chosen not to play in a Test match for the Lions because I was exhausted or suffering from exhaustion. That’s just nonsensical.

“I have to admit I was upset by it. Unfortunately the spin that was put on what occurred has ensured that certain people believed that,” said D’Arcy, who was adamant he had never, ever declined to play in a rugby match unless genuinely injured or unavailable.

Clearly irritated that a certain perception had gathered legs, D’Arcy added: “I know the truth of what happened but I want to put the matter to rest and there’s no better way of doing that than having the opportunity to play for the Lions again.”

D’Arcy was troubled by a shoulder injury towards the end of that Lions’ tour to New Zealand and, following an operation after his return to Ireland, he did not reappear on a rugby pitch until October 10th."

Shows what I know!

Fair play to those who called it earlier [Dave Cahill et al] – I'm surprised that D'Arcy hadn't cleared this rumour up earlier by telling his side of the story; it has certainly dogged his reputation for a number of years, and many people took it as fact. I know that the Lions had a gagging order for a specific [6 month?] period regarding tell-alls under the Woodward regime, but it would have been very much worth his while to knock that rumour on the head at source, as it has led to a fairly widespread perception regarding his mental 'flakiness' that is largely inaccurate. It's a serious character slur from Woodward as well, not sure what his motives could possibly have been [he's obviously a twerp, but still can't figure out why he'd spin something like that].

Hope D'Arce goes well and puts all the rumours to bed, finally.

[jhc99]

From today's Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/spo ... 99927.html

"Nevertheless, the fear the Lions squad announcement might just come too early for him was compounded by a widely-held perception that he had dirtied his bib irretrievably with the Lions four years ago.

Upon announcing his Lions team and replacements for the third Test, dead rubber against the All Blacks in Auckland, Clive Woodward said D’Arcy had ruled himself out of consideration for the match on the grounds he was too exhausted. There had even been suggestions D’Arcy ought not to be picked for the Lions again after that.

Asked about this, D’Arcy admitted: “I was deeply disappointed that any rugby player, whatever about commentators or pundits, and particularly former British and Irish Lions, might suggest I would have chosen not to play in a Test match for the Lions because I was exhausted or suffering from exhaustion. That’s just nonsensical.

“I have to admit I was upset by it. Unfortunately the spin that was put on what occurred has ensured that certain people believed that,” said D’Arcy, who was adamant he had never, ever declined to play in a rugby match unless genuinely injured or unavailable.

Clearly irritated that a certain perception had gathered legs, D’Arcy added: “I know the truth of what happened but I want to put the matter to rest and there’s no better way of doing that than having the opportunity to play for the Lions again.”

D’Arcy was troubled by a shoulder injury towards the end of that Lions’ tour to New Zealand and, following an operation after his return to Ireland, he did not reappear on a rugby pitch until October 10th."

Shows what I know!

Fair play to those who called it earlier [Dave Cahill et al] – I'm surprised that D'Arcy hadn't cleared this rumour up earlier by telling his side of the story; it has certainly dogged his reputation for a number of years, and many people took it as fact. I know that the Lions had a gagging order for a specific [6 month?] period regarding tell-alls under the Woodward regime, but it would have been very much worth his while to knock that rumour on the head at source, as it has led to a fairly widespread perception regarding his mental 'flakiness' that is largely inaccurate. It's a serious character slur from Woodward as well, not sure what his motives could possibly have been [he's obviously a twerp, but still can't figure out why he'd spin something like that].

Hope D'Arce goes well and puts all the rumours to bed, finally.

Straight from the horses mouth there. Can't argue with that. Fair enough and good luck to him for the tour.

[ronk]

but it would have been very much worth his while to knock that rumour on the head at source, as it has led to a fairly widespread perception regarding his mental 'flakiness' that is largely inaccurate. It's a serious character slur from Woodward as well, not sure what his motives could possibly have been [he's obviously a twerp, but still can't figure out why he'd spin something like that].

Hope D'Arce goes well and puts all the rumours to bed, finally.

He probably did say it before. It just wasn't news after the last Lions tour and was forgotten about by most people. He would then have felt the need to say something now because those stories have been resurfacing; they are topical now that he's a Lion.