First Test Post Mortem

[true blue 06]

BOD, roberts and kearney were all very good. croft did well to keep up with the game play. vickery was found out. POC and wyn jones were quite enough but not bad, worked well though. steven jones was poor, took the ball into contact to much even though he is not an attacking threat. monye- just nowhere near the skill level as luke, luke will have to start, after BOD, luke is probably the best defensively out of the Lions backs. if he doesn't start next week its a joke. i thought rees made a good impact coming on as did jones. BOD has shown again why he should be captain.

why should bod be captain? did you watch the same game? PoC put himself all over the pitch and played really well he led by example and did the work a second row does, really well. a second row doesn't do their work in the loose like a back does if you played rugby you would understand PoC job a bit better. i'm not taking away from BoD at all he would of done a good job, but PoC has done nothing wrong at all. BoD on paper was irish captain but kidney said the only reason he named him captain is because you have to nominate 1, their were lots of leaders on the pitch for the 6n and PoC made as many calls as BoD did.

i've said since before the tour started BOD should be captain, i'm not basing it just on yesterdays game. POC didn't have a great game, a decent game maybe. if your saying a leader should lead by example what better man than BOD... POC has a high work rate but spent a good bit of the game moaning to the ref, and getting hit backwards.

[ronk]

Fair play to the Lions for working themselves back into the game. They were clearly shell-shocked by the way the Boks started the game. They had really done their video analysis on Vickery and targeted his technique. This is the key advantage of being in training camp without playing games, you can come up with a party trick.

I thought the Lions were going to get minced but they regrouped well. Errors and headless game management lost them the game. The Sprinkboks did great work trying to interfere with touchdowns while the Lions were generally careless. Croft was almost held up too from a great position.

Poor old O'Gara was going up the wall with 4-5 minutes to go and a straightforward penalty 40m out with the Lions down 5. Jones made hardly any territory with the kick to touch and the Lions didn't go anywhere. Kick the penalty and win possession at the restart, there's enough time to work another chance and it's far easier to defend a 5 point lead than a 2 point lead. It's not like the Lions didn't have the chances to win. They took some wrong decisions and made elementary mistakes. But the Boks made some simple knock ons too.

They needed a performance from 15 players and they didn't get it. It was very evenly matched aside from that.

[Armchair]

We were totally dominated up front and that wasn't and shouldn't have been a shock, O'Connell had an average game but some of his decision making was very poor, calling for a balls to the back of the lineout when the line out was going bad and taking a scrum foward instead of the free kick which the boks turned over and scored from was madnesss. 9,10,11,12,13 worked well going foward and in defence BUT if Jones can't kick the points then O'Gara should start. Kearney impressed when he came on and looked far sharper than Byrne. Moyne couldn't perform the job he was there to do and that was finish so Luke deserves a chance.

We were well beaten SA made a lot of changes and that is when we got back into it, the Boks looked like the team that were playing rugby the last 3 weeks and not us. On a positive we looked very dangerous when the backs got moving but failed to take a number of scores. I would go with the front row that finished, put Shaw with O'Connell same back row that started, O'Gara for Jones, Fitzgerald for Moyne, Kearney for Byrne and bring Hayes on the bench!

[munster#1]

BOD, roberts and kearney were all very good. croft did well to keep up with the game play. vickery was found out. POC and wyn jones were quite enough but not bad, worked well though. steven jones was poor, took the ball into contact to much even though he is not an attacking threat. monye- just nowhere near the skill level as luke, luke will have to start, after BOD, luke is probably the best defensively out of the Lions backs. if he doesn't start next week its a joke. i thought rees made a good impact coming on as did jones. BOD has shown again why he should be captain.

why should bod be captain? did you watch the same game? PoC put himself all over the pitch and played really well he led by example and did the work a second row does, really well. a second row doesn't do their work in the loose like a back does if you played rugby you would understand PoC job a bit better. i'm not taking away from BoD at all he would of done a good job, but PoC has done nothing wrong at all. BoD on paper was irish captain but kidney said the only reason he named him captain is because you have to nominate 1, their were lots of leaders on the pitch for the 6n and PoC made as many calls as BoD did.

i've said since before the tour started BOD should be captain, i'm not basing it just on yesterdays game. POC didn't have a great game, a decent game maybe. if your saying a leader should lead by example what better man than BOD... POC has a high work rate but spent a good bit of the game moaning to the ref, and getting hit backwards.

You obviously never played rugby in your life have you? PoC did a second rows job,which is not to be in the loose all day but to be at the bottom of the ruck or the middle of the maul, a second rows job is to do the donkey work the unseen work and PoC work rate is second to none. do you understand the basics of rugby even? he was talking to the ref so much because in rugby the captain is he only player who can tallk to the ref, if you played rugby you would understand why he was talking to the ref so much, if he didn't he wouldn't be doing 1 of the captains biggest roles, another job is deciding what to do with your penalties, i can't remember a bad call he made. going on your reasoning that the captain should be the best player then i would pick roberts he is unbelievaable all tour maybe even jenkins. please join your local rugby club if not as a player then at least help out with underage to help you understand the game, you will enjoy it more.

[dipper]

I said on here before the match I was very worried about Vickery giving away penalties. Can't work out why he was sent out for the 2nd half. He'd given 9 points away by being pushed around by The Beast and had just been given his last warning by the ref.

What about the farce with the TMO though? He couldn't explain his decisions to the english speaking ref. Disgraceful in such an important match.

[sarah_lennon]

What about the farce with the TMO though? He couldn't explain his decisions to the english speaking ref. Disgraceful in such an important match.

That was merde-os. I swear to god he hasn't a clue. It was hilarious. The ref was like "5 metre scrum? Why" "Nah that's a 22"

[harryp]

Ok,

Phillips - personally thought he was excellent playing against the best SH in the world. People complain about his step & not having a great pass, but fact remains he gets the ball from the ruck before the ruck forms. He knows he's big enough to hold a hit if it does come so doesn't wait for pillars, just gets the ball out of there.

Jones. Place kicking was poor, but distribution was top notch. Takes flat ball & gives flat ball to the 2 terrorisers. ROG can't do that, he stands to deep and ships the ball. Centres were excellent coz the ball they received was late, flat and at speed.

Front Row. Beast was blatantly illegal. Even lining up the scrum he was forcing Vickery inside so he couldn't lock. Then he was boring. If this can be solved with the ref for Sat, I'd start Vickery again, he is the most dynamic tight head there and the most experienced. Mears. I think thats a call for Geech and whatever went wrong in his head?

2nd Row. AWJ / POC - 6 of 1 half dozen of the other. Both did ok, but no more. What worried me was POC didn't have that intensity. Where was the man that drilled Chabal back 20 yards? Think Shaw has to start, coz the pack needs meat / a monster, and I don't think DOC is aggressive enough. For who??? I don't know.

Back Row. People slating Heaslip - he was playing with 2 other elusive broken field runners in a game for battering rams, hence he spent the majority of the game playing as a 6. I think he did well, esp since he barely got any decent ball. Prob is the back row isn't big enough to take on the Boks. When you have Donie Roussow coming off the bench ..... Solution to the back row - I still don't know. Maybe DOC? It all depends on the tactics for the 2nd test. If we're going to fight them in the trenches we need big guns, if we're going to get into Guerilla warfare, then stick with the same again.

[Munsterboy]

Ok,

Jones. Place kicking was poor, but distribution was top notch. Takes flat ball & gives flat ball to the 2 terrorisers. ROG can't do that, he stands to deep and ships the ball. Centres were excellent coz the ball they received was late, flat and at speed. Same old cliche. He can play flat and distribute with the best of them but I wouldn't start him either. Jones was decent for a guy playing behind a beaten pack and he's a better tackler. Would want to get his kicks though.

Front Row. Beast was blatantly illegal. Even lining up the scrum he was forcing Vickery inside so he couldn't lock. Then he was boring. If this can be solved with the ref for Sat, I'd start Vickery again, he is the most dynamic tight head there and the most experienced. Mears. I think thats a call for Geech and whatever went wrong in his head? I'd go with Jones at LH to be on the safe side. For a flabby fecker he's surprisingly useful around the park too. If you gotta choose between two hookers who can't throw, might as well pick the bigger one.

2nd Row. AWJ / POC - 6 of 1 half dozen of the other. Both did ok, but no more. What worried me was POC didn't have that intensity. Where was the man that drilled Chabal back 20 yards? Think Shaw has to start, coz the pack needs meat / a monster, and I don't think DOC is aggressive enough. For who??? I don't know. Shaw and DOC were both very good last week. Tomorrow may decide that one and I'd be happy enough to see either.

Back Row. People slating Heaslip - he was playing with 2 other elusive broken field runners in a game for battering rams, hence he spent the majority of the game playing as a 6. I think he did well, esp since he barely got any decent ball. Prob is the back row isn't big enough to take on the Boks. When you have Donie Roussow coming off the bench ..... Solution to the back row - I still don't know. Maybe DOC? It all depends on the tactics for the 2nd test. If we're going to fight them in the trenches we need big guns, if we're going to get into Guerilla warfare, then stick with the same again. Same again please. With a better tight five I think the back row will do well. Even if Wally and Heaslip have to spend all day fighting it out in the rucks, Croft and the other backs can score the tries.

[suisse]

Back Row. People slating Heaslip - he was playing with 2 other elusive broken field runners in a game for battering rams, hence he spent the majority of the game playing as a 6. I think he did well, esp since he barely got any decent ball. Prob is the back row isn't big enough to take on the Boks. When you have Donie Roussow coming off the bench ..... Solution to the back row - I still don't know. Maybe DOC? It all depends on the tactics for the 2nd test. If we're going to fight them in the trenches we need big guns, if we're going to get into Guerilla warfare, then stick with the same again.

No-one is slating Heaslip....just looking for some balanced opinion here. Everything you say there is true, and as disturbing as it sounds, the option might be.......... (preparing to vomit)...... Joe Worsley. Leave Jamie Heaslip do what he does so well for Leinster and Ireland, but if the back row isn't big enough, and you want someone to fight these b$&%@#ds in the trenches, then surely Worsley must be considered. He'll offer nothing in attack (has anyone ever seen Worsley off load) but he was England's go to man when things got sticky in the 6 Nations. He complimented Croft pretty well, and he is 100% tackle. Makes a tackle, gets up, makes another. He'll tackle a bus coming towards him. Pace is an issue, so too the afforementioned passing game, but if want someone to spend 80 minutes hitting the Boks around the edges of the rucks and mauls, and at the same time putting them backwards, Worsley is the only man on tour who can do that.

[pulling a runner now]

[Hippo]

Refereeing of the scrum was a huge factor in this game. Vickery was illegally taken in the front row and though Jones coped miles better with the pressure when he came on the damage had long since been done. And don´t start me on the absence of a yellow card for the saffers in the final 15 minutes for repeated offences in the 22. I´m sick and tired of the differences in´interpretation´by refs everywhere. How is it beyond the powers of the IRB to organise some uniformity in this area? The very fact that teams spend ages analysing the ref before a game says it all. Really, with the game expanding in popularity at such a rate it´s an issue that must be addressed. How can you explain to a newbie about the rules of the game when half the time you´re answering a query with ´it depends on who´s reffing´? It is a JOKE, and it doesn´t happen anywhere else.

For the record, and I am of course biased, Rob, Luke, Shaw, ROG and Adam Jones all into the team for Saturday.

[true blue 06]

i've said since before the tour started BOD should be captain, i'm not basing it just on yesterdays game. POC didn't have a great game, a decent game maybe. if your saying a leader should lead by example what better man than BOD... POC has a high work rate but spent a good bit of the game moaning to the ref, and getting hit backwards.[/quote]
You obviously never played rugby in your life have you? PoC did a second rows job,which is not to be in the loose all day but to be at the bottom of the ruck or the middle of the maul, a second rows job is to do the donkey work the unseen work and PoC work rate is second to none. do you understand the basics of rugby even? he was talking to the ref so much because in rugby the captain is he only player who can tallk to the ref, if you played rugby you would understand why he was talking to the ref so much, if he didn't he wouldn't be doing 1 of the captains biggest roles, another job is deciding what to do with your penalties, i can't remember a bad call he made. going on your reasoning that the captain should be the best player then i would pick roberts he is unbelievaable all tour maybe even jenkins. please join your local rugby club if not as a player then at least help out with underage to help you understand the game, you will enjoy it more.[/quote]

do you understand english? i said POC's work rate was good but when he did take the ball on in the loose he was poor which he was , getting knocked back all the time.your saying the captain should lead by example, POC isn't having a great tour, BOD is ... and yes i do play for a rugby club... i also think you need to get out of the habit of MUNSTER GOOD,LEINSTER BAD in all of your posts, there;s a bit of a trend dedveloping in your posts and its a bit tiresome

[gfo]

im a firm believer that the captain should be up front in the pack. most of the action is at the break down and your captain needs to be in there knocking heads. ireland is the only major rugby team in the world apart from australia to have a back as a captain. (im excluding blair as scrum halves spend so much time in breakdowns and at scrums)
even leo captains leinster now, and BOD openly admits that lots of decision making in the irish set-up is made by POC and Rory Best. I think Paulie is doing as good a job as anyone could do in the situation

[CiaranIrl]

im a firm believer that the captain should be up front in the pack. most of the action is at the break down and your captain needs to be in there knocking heads. ireland is the only major rugby team in the world apart from australia to have a back as a captain. (im excluding blair as scrum halves spend so much time in breakdowns and at scrums)
even leo captains leinster now, and BOD openly admits that lots of decision making in the irish set-up is made by POC and Rory Best. I think Paulie is doing as good a job as anyone could do in the situation

To be fair, to say Ireland is the only one, excluding Australia and excluding Scotland implies that it is a weird anomaly. If you say that there are 8 major rugby playing nations, three are captained by backs. Same stats, but sounds different... If you add Argentina to the mix, then you have 4 out of 9.

I think POC was the right choice as Lions captain, but this experience has taught us that there is not even a remote argument for us to change the Ireland captaincy. I never thought there was, but this seals it.

[munster#1]

i've said since before the tour started BOD should be captain, i'm not basing it just on yesterdays game. POC didn't have a great game, a decent game maybe. if your saying a leader should lead by example what better man than BOD... POC has a high work rate but spent a good bit of the game moaning to the ref, and getting hit backwards.

You obviously never played rugby in your life have you? PoC did a second rows job,which is not to be in the loose all day but to be at the bottom of the ruck or the middle of the maul, a second rows job is to do the donkey work the unseen work and PoC work rate is second to none. do you understand the basics of rugby even? he was talking to the ref so much because in rugby the captain is he only player who can tallk to the ref, if you played rugby you would understand why he was talking to the ref so much, if he didn't he wouldn't be doing 1 of the captains biggest roles, another job is deciding what to do with your penalties, i can't remember a bad call he made. going on your reasoning that the captain should be the best player then i would pick roberts he is unbelievaable all tour maybe even jenkins. please join your local rugby club if not as a player then at least help out with underage to help you understand the game, you will enjoy it more.[/quote]

do you understand english? i said POC's work rate was good but when he did take the ball on in the loose he was poor which he was , getting knocked back all the time.your saying the captain should lead by example, POC isn't having a great tour, BOD is ... and yes i do play for a rugby club... i also think you need to get out of the habit of MUNSTER GOOD,LEINSTER BAD in all of your posts, there;s a bit of a trend dedveloping in your posts and its a bit tiresome[/quote]
i'm not htinking "munster good leinster bad" there are no players out there playing for munster there are irish players playing for the lions.
to be fair i think that your reasoning to have BOD as captain comes from the fact that he is a leinster player, he has proven that he is not as good a player when he is captain, as leinster and ireland found out this year when they took the pressure off him he was back to his best.
in my posts i am being objective in my views towards irish players, it just so happens that the irish players who are under preforming play for leinster.
heislip was by far the best #8 in europe this year but hasn't done it for the lions, also fitz seems to be trying to push for a place too hard and he is ahead of the runner a lot which has cost us 1 sure try and a lot of possesion, this is dissapoining from an IRISH point of view but true.
to be honest all round the irish are playing unreal kearney was fantastic when he came on, BOD is BOD, bowe is my irish player of the tour, wallace has gained a lot of ground, DOC has surely played the best rugby of his life, PoC work rate is second to none, darcy is unfortunate roberts is so good, earls has played better than ever and has showed us that we finally have a replacement for BOD and finally o gara' points tally speaks for itself. lets not forget ferris without doubt would have been player of the tournament, hes ireland rocky elsom.

[TrapperChamonix]

i'm not htinking "munster good leinster bad" there are no players out there playing for munster there are irish players playing for the lions.
to be fair i think that your reasoning to have BOD as captain comes from the fact that he is a leinster player, he has proven that he is not as good a player when he is captain, as leinster and ireland found out this year when they took the pressure off him he was back to his best.in my posts i am being objective in my views towards irish players, it just so happens that the irish players who are under preforming play for leinster.
.

I'd agree that POC has done a good job as a captain and there is no justificatoin blaming the result on his contribution as a player or captain, buy seriously you do your agruement no favours with comments like this. My memory was that he captained the Ireland to a GS and scorde a few trys. But I could be wrong

[munster#1]

i'm not htinking "munster good leinster bad" there are no players out there playing for munster there are irish players playing for the lions.
to be fair i think that your reasoning to have BOD as captain comes from the fact that he is a leinster player, he has proven that he is not as good a player when he is captain, as leinster and ireland found out this year when they took the pressure off him he was back to his best.in my posts i am being objective in my views towards irish players, it just so happens that the irish players who are under preforming play for leinster.
.

I'd agree that POC has done a good job as a captain and there is no justificatoin blaming the result on his contribution as a player or captain, buy seriously you do your agruement no favours with comments like this. My memory was that he captained the Ireland to a GS and scorde a few trys. But I could be wrong

true on paper BOD was captain but only on paper kidney selected him as captain because in rugby you munst nominate a captain, what kidney did instead was pick a few leaders who included best, POC and o gara as well as BOD that was very obvious in most games with the communication between o gara and POC making a lot of decisssions and team talks, this allowed BOD to be a leader but relieved a lot of pressure from him which allowed him to concentrate more on his individual preformance which he has admitted it is no secret or conspriacy against him.

[tones]

i'm not htinking "munster good leinster bad" there are no players out there playing for munster there are irish players playing for the lions.
to be fair i think that your reasoning to have BOD as captain comes from the fact that he is a leinster player, he has proven that he is not as good a player when he is captain, as leinster and ireland found out this year when they took the pressure off him he was back to his best.in my posts i am being objective in my views towards irish players, it just so happens that the irish players who are under preforming play for leinster.
.

I'd agree that POC has done a good job as a captain and there is no justificatoin blaming the result on his contribution as a player or captain, buy seriously you do your agruement no favours with comments like this. My memory was that he captained the Ireland to a GS and scorde a few trys. But I could be wrong

true on paper BOD was captain but only on paper kidney selected him as captain because in rugby you munst nominate a captain, what kidney did instead was pick a few leaders who included best, POC and o gara as well as BOD that was very obvious in most games with the communication between o gara and POC making a lot of decisssions and team talks, this allowed BOD to be a leader but relieved a lot of pressure from him which allowed him to concentrate more on his individual preformance which he has admitted it is no secret or conspriacy against him.

On paper my ass, your post really highlighted your underlying provincial attitude. You talk about all communication about decisions being between the two players who were leaders but co-incidentally from Munster. There's no doubt there was delegation of decision-making and that makes a huge difference i.e. to have the gun-ho figure like POC or the thinking player like BOD but BOD led that team moreso than anyone else. He was more than just a captain on the team. He led led the defence as well.

[Oldschool]

i'm not htinking "munster good leinster bad" there are no players out there playing for munster there are irish players playing for the lions.
to be fair i think that your reasoning to have BOD as captain comes from the fact that he is a leinster player, he has proven that he is not as good a player when he is captain, as leinster and ireland found out this year when they took the pressure off him he was back to his best.in my posts i am being objective in my views towards irish players, it just so happens that the irish players who are under preforming play for leinster.
.

I'd agree that POC has done a good job as a captain and there is no justificatoin blaming the result on his contribution as a player or captain, buy seriously you do your agruement no favours with comments like this. My memory was that he captained the Ireland to a GS and scorde a few trys. But I could be wrong

true on paper BOD was captain but only on paper kidney selected him as captain because in rugby you munst nominate a captain, what kidney did instead was pick a few leaders who included best, POC and o gara as well as BOD that was very obvious in most games with the communication between o gara and POC making a lot of decisssions and team talks, this allowed BOD to be a leader but relieved a lot of pressure from him which allowed him to concentrate more on his individual preformance which he has admitted it is no secret or conspriacy against him.

I'd agree that POC has done a good job as a captain and there is no justificatoin blaming the result on his contribution as a player or captain, buy seriously you do your agruement no favours with comments like this. My memory was that he captained the Ireland to a GS and scorde a few trys. But I could be wrong[/quote]
true on paper BOD was captain but only on paper kidney selected him as captain because in rugby you munst nominate a captain, what kidney did instead was pick a few leaders who included best, POC and o gara as well as BOD that was very obvious in most games with the communication between o gara and POC making a lot of decisssions and team talks, this allowed BOD to be a leader but relieved a lot of pressure from him which allowed him to concentrate more on his individual preformance which he has admitted it is no secret or conspriacy against him.[/quote]

On paper my ass, your post really highlighted your underlying provincial attitude. You talk about all communication about decisions being between the two players who were leaders but co-incidentally from Munster. There's no doubt there was delegation of decision-making and that makes a huge difference i.e. to have the gun-ho figure like POC or the thinking player like BOD but BOD led that team moreso than anyone else. He was more than just a captain on the team. He led led the defence as well.[/quote]
A few observations about captaining a team from the second row.
It is a great position to lead the pack from, but not be pack leader.
By this I mean being pack leader as well as captain is too much - The roles need to be separated out.
It is not a great position to lead the team from - Your influence drops dramaticaly from OH outwards.
This is where the scrumhalf can make or break a captain.
Get a good scrum half, who is a good leader and reader of the game also, and you're in business.
The good and successful Lions teams seem to have had a second row as captain and a good scrum half.
The odd man out is John Dawes captain of the 1971 Lions, but let's face it GE ruled the roost
and look at both the forwards and the backs that team had.
Even playing with their seconfd choice front row they won the series.
The !997 team had Dawson and Johnson.
With POC as Captain and BOD at centre, there are two very good leaders on the field, but the scrum half is not
of the same calibre as either of these players, nor is he any where near the class of Dawson, either in terms of
reading a game or basic skills.
A harsh but small indication of this is-
Five minutes to go in the first test, Phillips scored a brilliant try, then fisted the ball into the crowd.
Edwards or Dawson would have got up, with the ball, run back to their OH and got the conversion over asap.
Those extra 30 seconds could have made all the difference. Phillips wasn't turned on to the moment.

[TrapperChamonix]

I'd agree that POC has done a good job as a captain and there is no justificatoin blaming the result on his contribution as a player or captain, buy seriously you do your agruement no favours with comments like this. My memory was that he captained the Ireland to a GS and scorde a few trys. But I could be wrong

true on paper BOD was captain but only on paper kidney selected him as captain because in rugby you munst nominate a captain, what kidney did instead was pick a few leaders who included best, POC and o gara as well as BOD that was very obvious in most games with the communication between o gara and POC making a lot of decisssions and team talks, this allowed BOD to be a leader but relieved a lot of pressure from him which allowed him to concentrate more on his individual preformance which he has admitted it is no secret or conspriacy against him.

On paper my ass, your post really highlighted your underlying provincial attitude. You talk about all communication about decisions being between the two players who were leaders but co-incidentally from Munster. There's no doubt there was delegation of decision-making and that makes a huge difference i.e. to have the gun-ho figure like POC or the thinking player like BOD but BOD led that team moreso than anyone else. He was more than just a captain on the team. He led led the defence as well.

To be honesty Tones, I had thought to respond to M1, but I didn't think I could do anything more to highlight the absurdity of his arguement than he had done already.
"By his words you shall know him......"