First Test Post Mortem

[Danthefan]

There were some very obvious things that have to be sorted (set piece) but I'm not sure a massive post-mortem is needed. The Lions could easily have won.

[Comer Toes]

There were some very obvious things that have to be sorted (set piece) but I'm not sure a massive post-mortem is needed. The Lions could easily have won.

You've been listening to too much Sky Sports dan - it was only Saffa arrogance that prevented a fairly significant hiding today, it was like men against boys at times in the first half. While the breakdown didn't materialise as a major weakness of the Lions (Jamie and Wallace did well on that front), the lineout, scrum and tactical kicking were all clear areas of advantage for the boks. And while the set-piece was sorted out somewhat, the kicking of Pienaar and Steyn was awesome and will only be better in weeks to come. Kearney and ROG might be able to compete but Jones and Byrne were not at the same level.

Admittedly, Vickery's capitulation and also Mr Lawrence were highly significant factors in the Bok's supremacy. Lawrence is one of the worst refs around imo. How he called De Villiers holding up of Monye a 22 I'll never know. It was a scrum 5 as he got under the attempted touchdown or maybe even a penalty for ripping the ball while off his feet but a 22 was a joke. Really made his colleague look like a complete tw@t. As someone else points out on the first page, amazing that not even a warning was issued when the penalty count for the Boks had entered double figures in the red zone in the second half.

Monye just not good enough, the second chance in particular was a shocking miss. Luke should really get the nod next Saturday. Black-mark on McGeechan for not being able to make the hard call on the Wasp's man Vickery - the switch should have been made after 20 mins. There is a glimmer of hope for the Lions if they get the right men on the field for next week and really go for broke with ball in hand, Martyn Williams will be key.

Jenkins 7 – Held up his side of the bargain at scrum-time and got through a mountain of work
Mears 5 – Couple of poor darts in the first half and looked a bit lost in the physicality stakes. Fla has been a huge loss.
Vickery 3 – He was minced, should have been whipped off sooner.
Wyn-Jones 5 – Game passed him by a bit, not his normal role to be fair. DOC/ Shaw will play the role better and increased bulk will allow for Williams inclusion on the openside.
POC 6 – Tried to lead by example but doesn’t match the physicality and authority of Botha/ Matfield. Got better as the game went on.
Croft 7 – Right place at right time for the 2 tries but did well in other aspects of the game as well. Should have done better for the Smit try (which Barnes amazingly ignored!)
Wally 6- I was hoping for more with ball in hand, did ok at breakdown
Jamie 6 – Like Wallace a bit anonymous in terms of ball-carrying but Spies wasn’t prominent either
Philips 7 – Bit slow in getting ball away at times but can and will cause more trouble for the boks around the fringes, didn't look inferior to Du Preez at all
Jones 5 – Distributed to Roberts and Drico quite well but place kicking and tactical kicking were not up to scratch, case for ROG or Hook next Saturday
Roberts 8 – Got over the gain-line time and time again, great performance
Drico 8 - Class act, always looking to try something, maybe tried a tad too hard on occasion forcing a few errors
Bowe 6 - Bit frustrated that things weren't happening for him but made some good incisions in the second half
Monye 4 - Amateurish finishing, bring in Fitz please
Byrne 5/ Kearney 7 - Byrne was not faring well with the tactical, Rob handled himself fantastically, fielding is just ridiculously good, needs to add a few breaks next week if he gets the nod

[tackle-bag]

If the next match is refereed properly, the Lions will win by 20 points. That's the reality. Jacobs is the worst player ever to take to the field in a Lions test; he's like the small, fat child that no-one really speaks to at school.

[8M LEINSTAW]

I'd have Kearney, Fitz, ROG, Hines (2nd row) and Adam Jones in from the start. Hines more agressive and explosive than AWJ and DOC proved an excellent impact sub. We need to seriously work on our maul defense or we're in a heap of trouble again.

1st 50-60 min are what we should base our work during the week and selection on, not the last 20.

Who's the ref for next Saturday? Hopefully he'll understand binding (lack of) and boring (lots of) and negate some of the Beast's impact. However Vickery was very poor.

[TrapperChamonix]

Physicality, physicality, physicality.

We brought no (wait for it) physicality to the game. The whole pack, especially the front 5 got blasted by the Boks. All through the build up to this, the mantra was that we had to front up to the Boks physicality but we were unable to do so. I was concerned that the complaints after the Southern Kings game meant they really weren't in the right frame of mind about the challange that was coming. If you wanted to see what needed to be done, then have a look at how France played against the AB's over the last 2 weeks. Flannery and Ferris were definite losses (though Croft was invaluable for winning some line out ball) but the whole pack was blasted. The main change needed for the 2nd test is to bring back Telfor.

By the way, can anyone tell me what happend to Vickery in the scrums? We all mave have misgivings about his tendancy to give away penalties in open play, but I don't think I've ever seen him screwed like that before

[Danthefan]

You've been listening to too much Sky Sports dan - it was only Saffa arrogance that prevented a fairly significant hiding today, it was like men against boys at times in the first half. While the breakdown didn't materialise as a major weakness of the Lions (Jamie and Wallace did well on that front), the lineout, scrum and tactical kicking were all clear areas of advantage for the boks. And while the set-piece was sorted out somewhat, the kicking of Pienaar and Steyn was awesome and will only be better in weeks to come. Kearney and ROG might be able to compete but Jones and Byrne were not at the same level

I don't agree. We outscored them 3 tries to 2 and dropped the ball 3 more times over the line. Vickery getting annihilated contributed significantly to the Saffers tally too. That game was there for the taking for the Lions, a missed chance.



Edit - and I'm clearly going to get jumped on for this, but I couldn't give a toss. POC was the wrong call for captain.


Edit Edit - the BOD/Roberts midfield is just brilliant. Imagine if we had a decent 10 what they could do.

[munster#1]

BOD, roberts and kearney were all very good. croft did well to keep up with the game play. vickery was found out. POC and wyn jones were quite enough but not bad, worked well though. steven jones was poor, took the ball into contact to much even though he is not an attacking threat. monye- just nowhere near the skill level as luke, luke will have to start, after BOD, luke is probably the best defensively out of the Lions backs. if he doesn't start next week its a joke. i thought rees made a good impact coming on as did jones. BOD has shown again why he should be captain.

why should bod be captain? did you watch the same game? PoC put himself all over the pitch and played really well he led by example and did the work a second row does, really well. a second row doesn't do their work in the loose like a back does if you played rugby you would understand PoC job a bit better. i'm not taking away from BoD at all he would of done a good job, but PoC has done nothing wrong at all. BoD on paper was irish captain but kidney said the only reason he named him captain is because you have to nominate 1, their were lots of leaders on the pitch for the 6n and PoC made as many calls as BoD did.

[Oldschool]

There were some very obvious things that have to be sorted (set piece) but I'm not sure a massive post-mortem is needed. The Lions could easily have won.

You've been listening to too much Sky Sports dan - it was only Saffa arrogance that prevented a fairly significant hiding today, it was like men against boys at times in the first half. While the breakdown didn't materialise as a major weakness of the Lions (Jamie and Wallace did well on that front), the lineout, scrum and tactical kicking were all clear areas of advantage for the boks. And while the set-piece was sorted out somewhat, the kicking of Pienaar and Steyn was awesome and will only be better in weeks to come. Kearney and ROG might be able to compete but Jones and Byrne were not at the same level.

Admittedly, Vickery's capitulation and also Mr Lawrence were highly significant factors in the Bok's supremacy. Lawrence is one of the worst refs around imo. How he called De Villiers holding up of Monye a 22 I'll never know. It was a scrum 5 as he got under the attempted touchdown or maybe even a penalty for ripping the ball while off his feet but a 22 was a joke. Really made his colleague look like a complete tw@t. As someone else points out on the first page, amazing that not even a warning was issued when the penalty count for the Boks had entered double figures in the red zone in the second half.

Monye just not good enough, the second chance in particular was a shocking miss. Luke should really get the nod next Saturday. Black-mark on McGeechan for not being able to make the hard call on the Wasp's man Vickery - the switch should have been made after 20 mins. There is a glimmer of hope for the Lions if they get the right men on the field for next week and really go for broke with ball in hand, Martyn Williams will be key.

Jenkins 7 – Held up his side of the bargain at scrum-time and got through a mountain of work
Mears 5 – Couple of poor darts in the first half and looked a bit lost in the physicality stakes. Fla has been a huge loss.
Vickery 3 – He was minced, should have been whipped off sooner.
Wyn-Jones 5 – Game passed him by a bit, not his normal role to be fair. DOC/ Shaw will play the role better and increased bulk will allow for Williams inclusion on the openside.
POC 6 – Tried to lead by example but doesn’t match the physicality and authority of Botha/ Matfield. Got better as the game went on.
Croft 7 – Right place at right time for the 2 tries but did well in other aspects of the game as well. Should have done better for the Smit try (which Barnes amazingly ignored!)
Wally 6- I was hoping for more with ball in hand, did ok at breakdown
Jamie 6 – Like Wallace a bit anonymous in terms of ball-carrying but Spies wasn’t prominent either
Philips 7 – Bit slow in getting ball away at times but can and will cause more trouble for the boks around the fringes, didn't look inferior to Du Preez at all
Jones 5 – Distributed to Roberts and Drico quite well but place kicking and tactical kicking were not up to scratch, case for ROG or Hook next Saturday
Roberts 8 – Got over the gain-line time and time again, great performance
Drico 8 - Class act, always looking to try something, maybe tried a tad too hard on occasion forcing a few errors
Bowe 6 - Bit frustrated that things weren't happening for him but made some good incisions in the second half
Monye 4 - Amateurish finishing, bring in Fitz please
Byrne 5/ Kearney 7 - Byrne was not faring well with the tactical, Rob handled himself fantastically, fielding is just ridiculously good, needs to add a few breaks next week if he gets the nod

In fact I think De Villiers threw the ball into touch in the in goal area when he wrestled the ball from Monye.
Should that have been a penalty? - not sure of the law on that one.

[Oldschool]

Physicality, physicality, physicality.

We brought no (wait for it) physicality to the game. The whole pack, especially the front 5 got blasted by the Boks. All through the build up to this, the mantra was that we had to front up to the Boks physicality but we were unable to do so. I was concerned that the complaints after the Southern Kings game meant they really weren't in the right frame of mind about the challange that was coming. If you wanted to see what needed to be done, then have a look at how France played against the AB's over the last 2 weeks. Flannery and Ferris were definite losses (though Croft was invaluable for winning some line out ball) but the whole pack was blasted. The main change needed for the 2nd test is to bring back Telfor.

By the way, can anyone tell me what happend to Vickery in the scrums? We all mave have misgivings about his tendancy to give away penalties in open play, but I don't think I've ever seen him screwed like that before

The experts will tell you he is the weakest (excluding Hayes) tight head on tour.
The Boks pride themselves on their scrummaging (or used to).
The experts will alos tell you the beast was scrummaging illegally.
Jones comes on - The beast tamed (It's rumoured Jones showed him a copy of the laws so he started to scrummage legally after that).
Go figure.

[Oldschool]

You've been listening to too much Sky Sports dan - it was only Saffa arrogance that prevented a fairly significant hiding today, it was like men against boys at times in the first half. While the breakdown didn't materialise as a major weakness of the Lions (Jamie and Wallace did well on that front), the lineout, scrum and tactical kicking were all clear areas of advantage for the boks. And while the set-piece was sorted out somewhat, the kicking of Pienaar and Steyn was awesome and will only be better in weeks to come. Kearney and ROG might be able to compete but Jones and Byrne were not at the same level

I don't agree. We outscored them 3 tries to 2 and dropped the ball 3 more times over the line. Vickery getting annihilated contributed significantly to the Saffers tally too. That game was there for the taking for the Lions, a missed chance.



Edit - and I'm clearly going to get jumped on for this, but I couldn't give a toss. POC was the wrong call for captain.


Edit Edit - the BOD/Roberts midfield is just brilliant. Imagine if we had a decent 10 what they could do.

Are you suggesting they should have Sexton in the team by any chance?

[Oldschool]

BOD, roberts and kearney were all very good. croft did well to keep up with the game play. vickery was found out. POC and wyn jones were quite enough but not bad, worked well though. steven jones was poor, took the ball into contact to much even though he is not an attacking threat. monye- just nowhere near the skill level as luke, luke will have to start, after BOD, luke is probably the best defensively out of the Lions backs. if he doesn't start next week its a joke. i thought rees made a good impact coming on as did jones. BOD has shown again why he should be captain.

why should bod be captain? did you watch the same game? PoC put himself all over the pitch and played really well he led by example and did the work a second row does, really well. a second row doesn't do their work in the loose like a back does if you played rugby you would understand PoC job a bit better. i'm not taking away from BoD at all he would of done a good job, but PoC has done nothing wrong at all. BoD on paper was irish captain but kidney said the only reason he named him captain is because you have to nominate 1, their were lots of leaders on the pitch for the 6n and PoC made as many calls as BoD did.

I think will the scrum going the way it was, POC or BOd could do nothing about it until the Lions Management got their act together.
Lions management take about 60% of the blame for this one.

[Dublinner]

Real missed opportunity.
I thought the Lions were excellent in the second half. I was very proud of the come back. I dont think it was necessarily down to de Villiers taking off a few players. The fact is the Lions had ironed out the scrum and lineout problems at that stage. The centres were cutting them open all game.
BOD and Roberts are some pairing. Kearney was class when he came on. The problems re scrum and lineout were solved once Vickery and Mears were replaced. The management should have acted quicker in sorting this out. I would be fairly positive about the second test. Wouldnt be surprised to see them trying to take BOD out early, he is too good for them. Did anyone notice Botha taking the head off him on the ground as Smit scored the try? I think it would be risky to bring ROG in. I think Hines or Shaw might come in to bulk up the pack. Id leave Wallace to start at openside and bring Willaims on. If they can solidify the scrum, halt the rolling maul and win their own ball the backs will have too much for the Boks.
Disagree on O'Connell I thought he did well enough. He carried plenty of ball and considering he was up against 2 of the best second rows in the world felt he aquitted himself well. I also thought the Lions kept the much vaunted SA back row very quiet. The mighty Spies did very little damage. Im feeling positive. Lions to win second test in a tight game is my prediction.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

One thing I would say about POCs captaincy is that he didn't seem to talk to the ref much which was disappointing. Lawrence was dismissive of him whenever he did try and say something but that never stopped Johnson, Dallaglio etc from getting their point across.

I agree with everyone who has said that the Boks should have had somebody sinbinned but everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that Lawrence could have (rightly or wrongly) binned one of the Lions too. He really was awful!

[The Guru]

i wouldnt make a huge amount of changes. second row were decent and thought the backrow was good. even if jamie was quiet, id prefer him to be quiet than spies to have freedom around the park.

adam jones should start, and am i right to say that vickery is the only prop on tour that can play across the scrum? if so he needs to be kept on the bench.

o gara should be brought in. jones' kicking was poor and his passing was below his usual standard also i would say. it was too often that outside backs had to check back and slow down when recieving one of jones passes.

in my eyes monye shouldn't be out there. he offers very little other than reasonable speed in a straight line. i would play kearney on the wing for his positional and kicking game. bring fitz on the bench for impact (unlikely i would think).

my issues at half back or perhaps tactics is that they didn't play to their strengths. it was clear that o driscoll and roberts were causing havoc everytime they touched the ball but the ball didnt get to them enough (despite having dominance in possession). also phillips doesn't keep the defense thinking by switching the point of attack. he always goes to the same side until there is no space left then turns it around and goes back the other way. du preez is more inventive switching it back and forth between large blind sides and the open.

still think we can win it, boks were gassing near the end and the altitude could play to our advantage in that respect, it will hurt us however with the boks awesome kicking game.

wrote this elsewhere but applies here too

[orfeo]

One thing I would say about POCs captaincy is that he didn't seem to talk to the ref much which was disappointing. Lawrence was dismissive of him whenever he did try and say something but that never stopped Johnson, Dallaglio etc from getting their point across.

I agree with everyone who has said that the Boks should have had somebody sinbinned but everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that Lawrence could have (rightly or wrongly) binned one of the Lions too. He really was awful!

Considering the circumstances O'Connell had a fine game and he is doing fine as captain , The Lions are meant to be the best of the best of the home unions and at any one time there are 5/10 leaders on the pitch. As for the Ref ,S.A. did'nt need to talk to him and he made it plain he would'nt talk to the Lions.

You are correct in saying he could have binned one of the Lions, if he had followed his own logic he should have binned Vickery and so done us all a favour, we would have been forced into a earlier substitution which the management were reluctant to make and even with 14 men we would not have given up more points than that penalty machine Vickery cost us. In the lasts 15 mins S.A gave up I don't know how many penalties any other time and place it would have been a yellow card , but not here it seems.

I sometimes think S.hemisphere refs see it as a clash of cultures, particularly against the Lions , and they set out to show us how the game is really played . His dismissive attitute of Berdos would seem to re-enforce this.

[BlueArmyOriginal]

I think we're fupped now. When was the last time the boks lost 2 on the bounce on the high veldt? The Beast's 'interesting' interpretation of the scrummaging laws notwithstanding, Vickery was still awful. He's a 33 yr old veteren of the game who's won everything on offer and still hasn't the ability to counteract a bit of boring in? Complete finding out on that front and Adam Jones must start next week. We'll see how The Bull get's on during the week but I'd worry about him in a Beast v Bull scenario at scrumtime.

I think OH is a worry, Jones and ROG are too similar and if the Lions pack gets mullered again then ROG will have no real effect on things imo. Monye was found out too Luke would've scored at least one of those tries which would've won us the game.

Other than that The Lions did well but I think the boks were a little arrogant and if the game had been closer, De Villiers wouldn't've made some of the replacements that he did.

My team for next week: Jenkins, Rees, A Jones, DOC, POC, Croft, Wallace, Heaslip, Phillips, S Jones, Roberts, BOD, Luuuuke, Bowe, SuperRob.

[Munsterboy]

If we had anything close to parity up front (or a decent finisher on the wing!) we would have won well. Our backs were far too good for them.

Welsh front row, Irish second row and unchanged back row should improve things. We won't destroy them up front but we can definitely take them on.

Jones should hold his place. He missed a couple of kicks but he did well behind a beaten pack with some erratic and slow service from Phillips. He's used to the guys around him and I doubt ROG would have done better. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Fitz in for Monye, Kearney for Byrne (if he's not fit) and we're good to go.

The Lions are much better prepared for high altitude than most touring sides. I think it may not be such a big factor.

On a side note, perhaps Leinster should throw a massive suitcase of cash at Roberts to get him to come to Dublin. What a centre pairing!

[suisse]

If the next match is refereed properly, the Lions will win by 20 points. That's the reality.

I think the word you are looking for is fantasy: definition being an imagination or dream

[Comer Toes]

You've been listening to too much Sky Sports dan - it was only Saffa arrogance that prevented a fairly significant hiding today, it was like men against boys at times in the first half. While the breakdown didn't materialise as a major weakness of the Lions (Jamie and Wallace did well on that front), the lineout, scrum and tactical kicking were all clear areas of advantage for the boks. And while the set-piece was sorted out somewhat, the kicking of Pienaar and Steyn was awesome and will only be better in weeks to come. Kearney and ROG might be able to compete but Jones and Byrne were not at the same level

I don't agree. We outscored them 3 tries to 2 and dropped the ball 3 more times over the line. Vickery getting annihilated contributed significantly to the Saffers tally too. That game was there for the taking for the Lions, a missed chance.



Edit - and I'm clearly going to get jumped on for this, but I couldn't give a toss. POC was the wrong call for captain.


Edit Edit - the BOD/Roberts midfield is just brilliant. Imagine if we had a decent 10 what they could do.

You deserve to get jumped on if you just churn out empty statements like POC was the wrong call for captain with no further rationale behind it. What tangible difference would BOD as captain have made yesterday? I don't think POC made any wrong calls, and what could Drico have done about the Vickery situation. Captaincy had no effect on yesterday's outcome.

Just watched the match again there and Jones' service to the midfield was pretty impressive overall, if his nerve has deserted him with the place-kicks we need to look at other options though. What's the story with Hook?

[hugonaut]

Just watched the match again there and Jones' service to the midfield was pretty impressive overall, if his nerve has deserted him with the place-kicks we need to look at other options though. What's the story with Hook?

Agreed re Jones as part of a decent midfield. It's going to be a very difficult call for coaches: he didn't do anything outrageously special in terms of putting O'Driscoll and Roberts into space, and in terms of general distribution, arguably nothing that O'Gara couldn't do just as well, but the midfield was hugely impressive, and he deserves some credit.

However, his kicking was poor throughout. In terms of placekicks, all three conversions were close to the posts, and he missed an absolute sitter at 15:20 of the first half: 4 yards outside the 22, halfway between the 15 and the 5 on the right. A terrible miss. His early missed penalty on the minute mark was a tough kick and he only missed narrowly, but it was gettable - 3m inside the Boks 10.

His kicking out of hand was poor as well – in play, he twice found Steyn [once in each half], and kicked decent ball straight to Habana at 58 minutes [when he stepped Bowe and Steyn cleared]; with penalties from hand, his positional kicking was very poor – at 41:51 [when Bismarck du Plessis pulled Vickery out of the maul by his head] he makes about 18m down the left, basically from Lions 10m to just short of Boks 10m; at 77:20, he slices it about 15m from the Boks 10 to the Boks 22, a really poor kick. In both instances, you could genuinely have thrown it further. He actually didn't have a single exceptional kick in the whole game – which isn't just bad at this level for an outhalf, it's terrible.

Like I said before, his lack of tactical kicking will play on the minds of the Lions coaches as they make their selection for the second test at altitude. Obviously kicking to touch gives a lot of ball to the outstanding Boks lineout, but not having either length or an awareness of where the space is could severely damage the Lions' ability to play any sort of territorial game in what is sure to be a tighter match.