lions team for second test? - Speculation

[true blue 06]

i'd go with a few changes to be honest.

15-kearney
14-bowe
13-o'driscoll
12-roberts
11-fitzgerald
10- ??? Hook is a better player than ROG but ROG is a better kicker but is a big liability in defence
9-philips
8-heaslip
7-wallace
6-croft
5-o'connell
4-shaw
3-jones
2-rees
1-jenkins

[Danthefan]

Flannery's injury has been a massive blow, Mears wasn't at the races. Rees to start I suppose though, not exactly awe inspiring

If Byrne is 100% fit I'd start him again, done nothing to get himself dropped. Kearney did well though and I'd have no problem with him starting if Byrne isn't fit.

I would have started Fitz ahead of Monye anyway and my mind has not changed. Monye was in for his finishing, he couldn't finish today.

Vickery has to be dropped, Adam Jones to come in. Hayes to the bench maybe, though if Jenkins gets injured we could be in trouble then.

AWJ didn't cover himself in glory but I still think he's a better player than DOC.

Stephen Jones wasn't very good. It fills me with dread but ROG might be the better option. The second he goes all tomato head on us though he has to be hauled off.

[Sarphil]

RK to start. Hairy Monster to start.

[munster#1]

i would drop jamie to the bench move wally to #8 and bring in williams at 7. jamie had a couple of great games in 6n but hasn't done anything since. i can barely remember seeing him on the pitch. PoC carried more ball than him and in rugby that is the back rows job.
i think if we can get the scrum right o gara has to play he is unbelievable when the team is on the front foot and getting good supply from scrum half, but going on the pack the way they they played the first half any out half would of struggled especially o gara, he's not the best defensive out half in the game. i agree with the front row.
second row will be a real head ache, i'm not sure if i'm being biased but i think DoC has the same annoying qualities as quinlan at the ruck and is good at turning over ball, he puts himself around the field like a back row and is first to every kick off so i would pick him. i think DoC and PoC play better as a unit than any other partnership.
kearney played really well should get his place but either full back will not be a weakness if fit. i can't see fitz getting in the 22, fitz is a great player but seems to be lacking on this tour unfortunatly shane williams will come in with monye on the bench. the center partnership will get better and will be an unstoppable force. (leinster should offer roberts the big wages they gave that flanker they had, what was his name again? Pebbles i think, hahahaha.)

[Oldschool]

i'd go with a few changes to be honest.

15-kearney
14-bowe
13-o'driscoll
12-roberts
11-fitzgerald
10- ??? Hook is a better player than ROG but ROG is a better kicker but is a big liability in defence
9-philips
8-heaslip
7-wallace
6-croft
5-o'connell
4-shaw
3-jones
2-rees
1-jenkins

Shaw is too old - Hook may be injured. Jones/Rog is a toss up.
Good team tho'

[Oldschool]

Flannery's injury has been a massive blow, Mears wasn't at the races. Rees to start I suppose though, not exactly awe inspiring

If Byrne is 100% fit I'd start him again, done nothing to get himself dropped. Kearney did well though and I'd have no problem with him starting if Byrne isn't fit.

I would have started Fitz ahead of Monye anyway and my mind has not changed. Monye was in for his finishing, he couldn't finish today.

Vickery has to be dropped, Adam Jones to come in. Hayes to the bench maybe, though if Jenkins gets injured we could be in trouble then.

AWJ didn't cover himself in glory but I still think he's a better player than DOC.

Stephen Jones wasn't very good. It fills me with dread but ROG might be the better option. The second he goes all tomato head on us though he has to be hauled off.

Bryne's kicking was very poor and got us into a lot of trouble.
Kearney was much more confident with ball in hand.

[Danthefan]

Byrne injured himself in the warmup and actually subbed himself because his kicking was cr@p. If he's fit he should start, if not Kearney.

[hugonaut]

i would drop jamie to the bench move wally to #8 and bring in williams at 7. jamie had a couple of great games in 6n but hasn't done anything since. i can barely remember seeing him on the pitch. PoC carried more ball than him and in rugby that is the back rows job.

Heaslip was pretty quiet by his standards in open play alright, but so was the widely-proclaimed "best No.8 in the world", Pierre Spies, and the highest try scoring Springbok backrow of all time, Juan Smith. I don't think it was conincidental, but maybe that's just me being one-eyed.

I'm a huge, huge Wally fan, but I think his best position is definitely openside: playing No.8 occasionally for Munster in Magner's League games and in certain set-pieces isn't the same as playing it in a Lions Test Match, and he's an inferior No.8 to Heaslip. As Rafa Benitez would say, ¡FACT!

As for your assertion that Heaslip 'had a couple of great games in 6n but hasn't done anything since': normally I'd say – out of politeness – that I disagree, but you're just plain old wrong in this case. Obviously he won the Heineken Cup, when – lest it go unmentioned – the Leinster backrow outplayed the Munster backrow conclusively, and he has also clearly been the best No.8 on the Lions tour. Wally's poor outing in the first game against the Royal XV was excusable, as he was a late replacement for Powell and the process of aclimitization was clearly wreaking havoc with the Lions conditioning, but it was still poor.

Heaslip was been clearly superior to Andy Powell, clearly superior to his opposite man in the games that he has played up to the test match, and better than all the provincial No.8s that the South Africans have fielded. As I've said above, both Pierre Spies and Juan Smith were unbelievably quiet in the test as well: would you drop them?

The Boks will likely re-introduce Schalk Burger at No.6, which will give Geech reason to pause. Martin Williams is arguably a better openside than Wallace for the game the Lions are playing, but he'll struggle to physically compete with Schalk at the breakdown. Heaslip's work at the breakdown allows the better runners in the backrow [both Wallace and Croft] to thrive, and for the most part, the combination worked well: the damaging penalties the Lions conceded were largely from the scrum this time around, rather than the breakdown, in direct contrast to the provincial games.

BTW, I agree with you regarding ROG in for Jones: not sure what Jones has to do to get dropped at this stage, as he has had two relatively lacklustre performances in a row. His poor kicking from the ground and from hand [especially his missed penalty from the right in the first half and the sliced touchfinder from the penalty in the last 4 minutes] were important moments in the match and may have changed the outcome.

[Danthefan]

i would drop jamie to the bench move wally to #8 and bring in williams at 7.

Laughable.

[suisse]

i would drop jamie to the bench move wally to #8 and bring in williams at 7.

Laughable.

Why is is laughable? The point of BlueBlue's post is to recognise the players who didn't play well, and find an alternative. You're looking at this through the eyes of a Leinster/Ireland fan. If Stephen Jones, Ugo Monye, Lee Byrne, Lee Mears and AWJ etc should be dropped, then surely Heaslip must come into consideration too. He did nothing of any note yesterday. It doesn't matter if Pierre Spies was quiet, Heaslip was average off the back of the scrum, and offered none of the physicality we have seen so far this season. And, Tommy Bowe's selection must be looked into also.

But it won't. Why? Because you can't simply put a knife through 6 of the starting XV. In 6 days time, the same thing happens again. What do you do then? Blame the players for running into each other? Forward passes etc? No continuity. No familiarity. We'll see 2 changes in the front row. No more, except for injury. How can you keep changing the team and expect them to win against South Africa BlueBlue?

[Danthefan]

Heaslip is the best 8 in the party. Wallace has already been tried at 8 on this tour and it didn't even remotely work out. Him at the back of a retreating scrum would be an absolute disaster. I didn't say AWJ or Byrne should be dropped either by the way.

[suisse]

I didn't say you mentioned those guys for the slaughter. But the whole point of this thread of this to recognise the guys who should be dropped. But ironically, as this site often does, Leinster, specifically, and Irish players are immune from such criticisms. Someone mentioned Heaslip, but that's a laughable suggestion. Yet it's also OK to mention players of different clubs. Heaslip was poor, and saying there is no-one else is not good enough. If the likes of Monye should be sent packing, Heaslip must come into consideration.

But, as I said, you can't keep making a ridiculous number of changes. Does nothing to help the cohesivness of the team. If BlueBlue was the Lions selector, we'd lose by 67 points next week

[Danthefan]

It is a laughable suggestion though, which came from a Munster fan for what it's worth. I'm not suggesting Heaslip had a fantastic game either, what he did was spend the entire thing in rucks and if the management were considering Wallace at 8 next week Heaslip would have come off for Williams, not Wallace. The very fact their backrow didn't dominate suggests he must have done something right. I also agree there shouldn't be wholesale changes. I am not looking to get as many Leinster players in the team as possible, I want the best team to be picked. Heaslip is the best 8 on tour.

[Oldschool]

i would drop jamie to the bench move wally to #8 and bring in williams at 7.

Laughable.

Why is is laughable? The point of BlueBlue's post is to recognise the players who didn't play well, and find an alternative. You're looking at this through the eyes of a Leinster/Ireland fan. If Stephen Jones, Ugo Monye, Lee Byrne, Lee Mears and AWJ etc should be dropped, then surely Heaslip must come into consideration too. He did nothing of any note yesterday. It doesn't matter if Pierre Spies was quiet, Heaslip was average off the back of the scrum, and offered none of the physicality we have seen so far this season. And, Tommy Bowe's selection must be looked into also.

But it won't. Why? Because you can't simply put a knife through 6 of the starting XV. In 6 days time, the same thing happens again. What do you do then? Blame the players for running into each other? Forward passes etc? No continuity. No familiarity. We'll see 2 changes in the front row. No more, except for injury. How can you keep changing the team and expect them to win against South Africa BlueBlue?

What scrum? sure we were penalised before Heaslip even got the ball.
Seriously did you watch the game or are you Vickery (in non de plume), covering your awful performance by pointing the finger at your fellow players.
We could argue that POC, Wyn Jones etc were quiet - everything changed when Vickery went off.
It's funny and I hate bringing the L v M thing into it, but when Foley was "quiet", it was because he was doing the unseen work or pacing himself - give us a break and analyse what happened and leave your parochialism where it belongs.

[Oldschool]

I didn't say you mentioned those guys for the slaughter. But the whole point of this thread of this to recognise the guys who should be dropped. But ironically, as this site often does, Leinster, specifically, and Irish players are immune from such criticisms. Someone mentioned Heaslip, but that's a laughable suggestion. Yet it's also OK to mention players of different clubs. Heaslip was poor, and saying there is no-one else is not good enough. If the likes of Monye should be sent packing, Heaslip must come into consideration.

But, as I said, you can't keep making a ridiculous number of changes. Does nothing to help the cohesivness of the team. If BlueBlue was the Lions selector, we'd lose by 67 points next week

I seem to remember, that "no one else" argument was used to promote ROG's continued and unwarranted selection for Ireland.

[The Guru]

i wouldnt make a huge amount of changes. second row were decent and thought the backrow was good. even if jamie was quiet, id prefer him to be quiet than spies to have freedom around the park.

adam jones should start, and am i right to say that vickery is the only prop on tour that can play across the scrum? if so he needs to be kept on the bench.

o gara should be brought in. jones' kicking was poor and his passing was below his usual standard also i would say. it was too often that outside backs had to check back and slow down when recieving one of jones passes.

in my eyes monye shouldn't be out there. he offers very little other than reasonable speed in a straight line. i would play kearney on the wing for his positional and kicking game. bring fitz on the bench for impact (unlikely i would think).

my issues at half back or perhaps tactics is that they didn't play to their strengths. it was clear that o driscoll and roberts were causing havoc everytime they touched the ball but the ball didnt get to them enough (despite having dominance in possession). also phillips doesn't keep the defense thinking by switching the point of attack. he always goes to the same side until there is no space left then turns it around and goes back the other way. du preez is more inventive switching it back and forth between large blind sides and the open.

still think we can win it, boks were gassing near the end and the altitude could play to our advantage in that respect, it will hurt us however with the boks awesome kicking game.

[downsouthdukin]

i would drop jamie to the bench move wally to #8 and bring in williams at 7.

but when Foley was "quiet", it was because he was doing the unseen work or pacing himself utter tripe!! - give us a break and analyse what happened and leave your parochialism where it belongs.

i think you'll find suisse is a leinster fan... he is one of the best posters on this site certainly superior to your attempts..
suisse was merely pointing out that an opinion to put wallace at 8 instead of heaslip is not laughable as dan suggested..he did not suggest the change. Not one of you guys pointed out how poor heaslip was. hes a class act but very poor yesterday. so perhaps you should analyse what happened and leave your parochialism where it belongs

[downsouthdukin]

I didn't say you mentioned those guys for the slaughter. But the whole point of this thread of this to recognise the guys who should be dropped. But ironically, as this site often does, Leinster, specifically, and Irish players are immune from such criticisms. Someone mentioned Heaslip, but that's a laughable suggestion. Yet it's also OK to mention players of different clubs. Heaslip was poor, and saying there is no-one else is not good enough. If the likes of Monye should be sent packing, Heaslip must come into consideration.

But, as I said, you can't keep making a ridiculous number of changes. Does nothing to help the cohesivness of the team. If BlueBlue was the Lions selector, we'd lose by 67 points next week

I seem to remember, that "no one else" argument was used to promote ROG's continued and unwarranted selection for Ireland.

i think you should follow a sport you understand. does one need to explain to you the vast diffences between 8 and 10, do you need it explained that as a nation we produce backrow forwards like potatoes and 10s like merlot.
i suppose you were one of the clowns suggesting babyhumphs should take rogs jersey after the autumn?

[downsouthdukin]

BTW, I agree with you regarding ROG in for Jones: not sure what Jones has to do to get dropped at this stage, as he has had two relatively lacklustre performances in a row. His poor kicking from the ground and from hand [especially his missed penalty from the right in the first half and the sliced touchfinder from the penalty in the last 4 minutes] were important moments in the match and may have changed the outcome.

i thnk jones is getting alot of unfair stick. he missed 1 easy kick, the first one wasnt a gimme.he controlled his backs very intelligently. his tactical kicking wasnt brilliant but he ran most of the ball that came his way, rogs game just isnt suited to the game plan the lions want to play.

however i would have liked to have seen the lions play more territory in the first half, the boks while dominant in the lineout didnt make a line break all day. surely it would have been advisable to let the boks run or kick from deep inside there own 22.

[BlueArmyOriginal]

The only change I'd make to the backrow would be to bring Williams in for Croft and move Wallace to 6. You'd lose a bit in the lineout but you'd gain a great link-man and support runner as well as having 2 great spoilers on the ground. Even then I'm inclined to leave the backrow as it is and give them another crack, Croft had a good game and Jamie's attacking threat was gone once the tight-5 got taken apart and while he was a bit quiet he did do a good bit of grunt-work at the breakdown.
Halfback is worrying, Phillips was slow and predictable and Jones didnt run the game at all. Ellis and ROG aren't exactly dazzling replacements tho and while his kicking would be better than Jones', the thought of Juan Smith/Schalk Berger running at ROG 5m out from the Lions line with a minute to go isn't a nice image.