British & Irish Lions Team for 2nd test - Announcement

[Armchair]

I am glad Shaw starts he will add a bit of grunt for the first 20 minutes which will be ferocius! I think that is a decent team and a strong bench, DOC a bit unlucky not to be there and I thought Moyne would be on the bench but all in all I think with the resources available that is the best we have, The front 5 will make a big difference in the scrum with 3 changes and Sheridan on the bench should make this area more even!

[waterboy]

Surprised Doc didn't make the bench, thought he's done well on the tour. Looks like they are determined to give Shane Williams and run at some stage in a test! Should have Moyne on the bench instead of Williams

4 Leinster men starting

[PCASEY]

at 6 ft 8, and 123kg Mr Shaw will be the heaviest Lion on the pitch, even heavier than the two welsh props, individually not together. I pity the poor guys who are expected to lift him in a line out. At 125kg, the Bull only has 2kg on him.

The answer to the question of how do you stop the safers loose head prop from going through your scrum? put two props on that side of it

[ceemec]

at 6 ft 8, and 123kg Mr Shaw will be the heaviest Lion on the pitch, even heavier than the two welsh props, individually not together. I pity the poor guys who are expected to lift him in a line out. At 125kg, the Bull only has 2kg on him.

The answer to the question of how do you stop the safers loose head prop from going through your scrum? put two props on that side of it

Stick a prop who is 7cm shorter than Vickery in. Lets see Mtawarira get under that. Won't have nearly as much joy in manipulating his opposite number when his 19 stone is crammed into a much smaller frame. Also having the 123kg shoving behind him will be a big boost. Think the scrums will be a far more settled affair this time around. Don't like Merde-os as ref though. Could let it be a free for all, Top 14 style.

[dipper]

Surprised Doc didn't make the bench, thought he's done well on the tour. Looks like they are determined to give Shane Williams and run at some stage in a test! Should have Moyne on the bench instead of Williams

4 Leinster men starting

Agree with both your points there and it must be a record number of Leinster men to make a Lions Test match!

[olaf the fat]

Super to see so many leinster names there.
DOC should have at least been on the bench, hope Rog gets game time this week

[Oldschool]

Have to say that's Sky's website is pantaloons

For those of you who didn't know what pantaloons might be -
The Pantaloons
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Pantaloons are an English touring theatre company specialising in open-air productions of the plays of William Shakespeare. Their work draws from a wide variety of popular theatre traditions, and is often performed for free in public spaces.

Close enough, except for the "free" bit!

[Bogger]

Shaw too big too heavy too slow too old, will give away a tonne of penos and is aknee jerk reaction to the poor performance of Vickery and the Ref Mr. Bryce. DOC can feel hard done by.

Shane WIlliams on bench- good lord, why not Flutey, Darcy, Earls Moyne, .....they are still searching for the little magican but he's off form, it happens move on.

[ribs]

Shaw too big too heavy too slow too old, will give away a tonne of penos and is aknee jerk reaction to the poor performance of Vickery and the Ref Mr. Bryce. DOC can feel hard done by.

Gotta disagree with you there. Even though I've had no time for Shaw in the past, he has performed very well on this tour - in my opinion he is the only Lions forward to consistently get over the gainline. DOC's penalties in the Tuesday game might have come back to haunt him (including the one at the very end)

[TrapperChamonix]

Surprised Doc didn't make the bench, thought he's done well on the tour. Looks like they are determined to give Shane Williams and run at some stage in a test! Should have Moyne on the bench instead of Williams

4 Leinster men starting

Agree with both your points there and It must be a record number of Leinster men to make a Lions Test match!

I wonder what the record from one club actually is. If you think that in days gone by the Welsh contingent would hav been split among 10 clubs rather than 4. You'd guess the record might be held by Cardiff or Leicester. I wonder what it is. I expect it is higher than 4, but it can't be too much higher.

Anyway there's only one ML team I'm referring to a Dirttrackers in future

[ceemec]

Shaw too big too heavy too slow too old, will give away a tonne of penos and is aknee jerk reaction to the poor performance of Vickery and the Ref Mr. Bryce. DOC can feel hard done by.

Gotta disagree with you there. Even though I've had no time for Shaw in the past, he has performed very well on this tour - in my opinion he is the only Lions forward to consistently get over the gainline. DOC's penalties in the Tuesday game might have come back to haunt him (including the one at the very end)

That wasn't DOC at the end. Ref told him it was another player. Think it was Monye actually who infringed. DOC has been hard done by. AWJ has done very little and, truth be told, is probably the least impressive lock overall on tour. Agree about Shaw though. He's been decent and deserves a shot. His bulk is needed in that pack. POC is a bit at sea. He just doesn't look comfortable and isn't stamping his authority on the games as I've come to expect from him. Sometimes Shaw can be very erratic with the ball in hand dropping passes, throwing silly offloads but when he's good he's very good. Lets hope he's good.

[Donny B.]

Ospreys had four starters in the first test Jones, Philips, Bowe and Byrne.

[hugonaut]

I think that too much has been expected of Paul O'Connell on this tour. That's a very bald statement, so I'll try and explain myself a little better.

Like it or not, as a second row captain [and with especial reference to McGeechan's previously stated preference for "a big bloke to knock on the dressing room door" regarding Johnson], he's being compared to Martin Johnson, and, to a lesser extent Willie John McBride. I think if you took a look at the tape of the latter two players [admittedly, tape of Willie John is unbelievably limited, so I'm going more by books and interviews] and compared them to O'Connell, you'd find that despite the many similarities, there are also a couple of very important differences.

Firstly, and probably most importantly, both Johnson and McBride were violent players. I'm not saying that's all they were, but it was a significant part of their game. In McBride's era, it was very much accepted as part and parcel of the game; less so in Johnson's era, but games were significantly more violent in the 90s than today [for the most part]. The introduction of far more camera angles, the microphone linking of touch judges and referees and, most importantly, the introduction of a neutral citing commissioner, has taken a lot of violence off the field. Johnson was suspended and carded a number of times, and got away with quite a lot of other shenanigans by virtue of being captain. O'Connell isn't a violent player: he can obviously hold his own [Jamie Cudmore will attest to that], but he has got an excellent disciplinary record, and it's a serious plus. Imagine how much sh¡t he'd cause the team if he missed a match [or matches] through citing. However, violence seems to get your fans very much behind you: I'm surprised by how many people think Nathan Hines has done well on this tour, when he has been seriously outdone by DOC in playing terms throughout – I think that's pretty indicative.

Secondly, he's a better athlete than the other two, and a four jumper compared to their role as two jumpers. Again, this has something to do with the violence/intimidation aspect. Throwing hard and flat to two is the easiest throw for a hooker, and a good two jumper could dominate the front of the lineout very evidently [to both spectators and the opposition team] before lineouts became the all-feinting, all-shifting, back-and-forth, smoke-and-mirrors, "physical-chess" [sorry] set-piece that is now standard. Obviously a good two jumper can still have a big effect [Bakkies Botha, for example], but it's getting rarer and rarer.

Throwing to four is tougher, as it is much more of a unit effort and requires a fair degree more precision from both thrower and lifter. O'Connell has been taken out of his comfort zone by the absence of Flannery as thrower [and the generally substandard hookers of this Lions vintage] and Hayes as a lifter, and he has still done well throughout the tour. However, by having to counter the South African lineout by mixing it up so much, his greatest strength [consistent ball at 4] has been somewhat neutered. So has his reputation, especially by those who are looking to criticise rather than be objective.

He's not a great midfield carrier, as he lacks the genuine pace of Ferris and is too upright – he can't help it, he's about 2m tall. Think about it: how often did you see Matfield carry for the Boks in the first test? Rarely, if ever – and he's a better athlete than O'Connell [probably the most athletic second row in the history of the game, in my opinion] and his opposite number. O'Connell's staunchest defenders will point out that he's often used to suck in defenders from slow ball, and that he never turns it over – both fairly accurate assertions. However, he has struggled to break the gain-line against the Bok physicality – which simply isn't a factor in most NH matches – and the difficulties the Lions are experiencing at the breakdown [inconsistent refereeing and a lack of cohesion born of being a scratch team] are magnified when they're not coming on to the ball.

Even Wally has struggled to break the gainline, which is a rare sight in 6N competition, and Andy Powell has been a non-event. Obviously my prior mention of Ferris will have given the game away, but he is missed hugely, as I think a two-out system, where the midfield defence isn't sure which Lions forward the ball is going to until the last moment, would be vastly more effective.

Other than that, O'Connell has done really well on tour – he has a phenomenal appetite for work in terms of rucking, hasn't missed a tackle that I can remember and has made a couple of big ones that have led to turnovers, and his efforts in securing turnovers at the breakdown are easily the best of any second row on tour. He gives away a few penalties alright, but that's because the breakdown has become an absolute free-for-all and is purely down to the referee's discretion. The prevalence of 2-on-1 tackles now means that two defenders are legitimately allowed handle the ball at breakdown: thus it's a big ask for any team to maintain posession of the ball on the floor, and the extremely lenient view of when a player is 'on his feet' [oftentimes with both knees on the tackled player] makes it even more difficult.

Hopefully the Lions can endeavour to pass the ball out of the/before the tackle more in the second test, as it cuts down on refereeing error and breakdown turnover; it may be perceived as high-risk, but surely the risk is higher when it's down to a French ref's interpretation of the breakdown?

In conclusion, has O'Connell been disappointing? Maybe a little, yes. However, the previous second-row captains' lustre has grown beyond measure with success, and the test series isn't half-way through yet. A strong performance in the second test – and hopefully a win – will genuinely put a cap on many of the doubters.

Very few players have been outstanding in the tests, with the exception of Jamie Roberts and Brian O'Driscoll; Tommy Bowe and Jamie Heaslip had been magnificent in the provincial games, but were relatively quiet in the first test [Heaslip moreso than Bowe]. Tom Croft, Mike Phillips and surprisingly, Adam Jones have burnished their reputations to a degree, but each of them still has very appreciable flaws in their respective games. Steven Ferris was well on the way until injury cruelly robbed him of a deserved test spot, and Leigh Byrne, whilst having moments of excellence, hasn't produced the consistent brilliance that many hoped for. Here's hoping they can step up to the mark on Saturday.

[suisse]

This has all the look of a desperate last roll of a dice by a coach. How can he make 5 changes and expect an improvement on the previous week? The general make up of the team looks better than last week, but we have never seen that side in action before, so there should be a f%~k load of errors. The bench is absolutely loaded with big men, there to make a difference (up front, anyway). Ross Ford has contributed little on tour, likewise Sheridan, but they are obviously in to do some damage when required.

DOC is unlucky, but strangely happy with Shaw's inclusion. His scrummaging is important and he was very impressive in just 20-odd mins on Tuesday. Adam Jones is being portrayed as the great white hope in the front row, but I reckon he'll be a f%~king liability, if it wasn't for Shaw.

No chance. Boks by 14 points

[leinsterlank]

I think that too much has been expected of Paul O'Connell on this tour. That's a very bald statement, so I'll try and explain myself a little better.

Like it or not, as a second row captain [and with especial reference to McGeechan's previously stated preference for "a big bloke to knock on the dressing room door" regarding Johnson], he's being compared to Martin Johnson, and, to a lesser extent Willie John McBride. I think if you took a look at the tape of the latter two players [admittedly, tape of Willie John is unbelievably limited, so I'm going more by books and interviews] and compared them to O'Connell, you'd find that despite the many similarities, there are also a couple of very important differences.

Firstly, and probably most importantly, both Johnson and McBride were violent players. I'm not saying that's all they were, but it was a significant part of their game. In McBride's era, it was very much accepted as part and parcel of the game; less so in Johnson's era, but games were significantly more violent in the 90s than today [for the most part]. The introduction of far more camera angles, the microphone linking of touch judges and referees and, most importantly, the introduction of a neutral citing commissioner, has taken a lot of violence off the field. Johnson was suspended and carded a number of times, and got away with quite a lot of other shenanigans by virtue of being captain. O'Connell isn't a violent player: he can obviously hold his own [Jamie Cudmore will attest to that], but he has got an excellent disciplinary record, and it's a serious plus. Imagine how much sh¡t he'd cause the team if he missed a match [or matches] through citing. However, violence seems to get your fans very much behind you: I'm surprised by how many people think Nathan Hines has done well on this tour, when he has been seriously outdone by DOC in playing terms throughout – I think that's pretty indicative.

Secondly, he's a better athlete than the other two, and a four jumper compared to their role as two jumpers. Again, this has something to do with the violence/intimidation aspect. Throwing hard and flat to two is the easiest throw for a hooker, and a good two jumper could dominate the front of the lineout very evidently [to both spectators and the opposition team] before lineouts became the all-feinting, all-shifting, back-and-forth, smoke-and-mirrors, "physical-chess" [sorry] set-piece that is now standard. Obviously a good two jumper can still have a big effect [Bakkies Botha, for example], but it's getting rarer and rarer.

Throwing to four is tougher, as it is much more of a unit effort and requires a fair degree more precision from both thrower and lifter. O'Connell has been taken out of his comfort zone by the absence of Flannery as thrower [and the generally substandard hookers of this Lions vintage] and Hayes as a lifter, and he has still done well throughout the tour. However, by having to counter the South African lineout by mixing it up so much, his greatest strength [consistent ball at 4] has been somewhat neutered. So has his reputation, especially by those who are looking to criticise rather than be objective.

He's not a great midfield carrier, as he lacks the genuine pace of Ferris and is too upright – he can't help it, he's about 2m tall. Think about it: how often did you see Matfield carry for the Boks in the first test? Rarely, if ever – and he's a better athlete than O'Connell [probably the most athletic second row in the history of the game, in my opinion] and his opposite number. O'Connell's staunchest defenders will point out that he's often used to suck in defenders from slow ball, and that he never turns it over – both fairly accurate assertions. However, he has struggled to break the gain-line against the Bok physicality – which simply isn't a factor in most NH matches – and the difficulties the Lions are experiencing at the breakdown [inconsistent refereeing and a lack of cohesion born of being a scratch team] are magnified when they're not coming on to the ball.

Even Wally has struggled to break the gainline, which is a rare sight in 6N competition, and Andy Powell has been a non-event. Obviously my prior mention of Ferris will have given the game away, but he is missed hugely, as I think a two-out system, where the midfield defence isn't sure which Lions forward the ball is going to until the last moment, would be vastly more effective.

Other than that, O'Connell has done really well on tour – he has a phenomenal appetite for work in terms of rucking, hasn't missed a tackle that I can remember and has made a couple of big ones that have led to turnovers, and his efforts in securing turnovers at the breakdown are easily the best of any second row on tour. He gives away a few penalties alright, but that's because the breakdown has become an absolute free-for-all and is purely down to the referee's discretion. The prevalence of 2-on-1 tackles now means that two defenders are legitimately allowed handle the ball at breakdown: thus it's a big ask for any team to maintain posession of the ball on the floor, and the extremely lenient view of when a player is 'on his feet' [oftentimes with both knees on the tackled player] makes it even more difficult.

Hopefully the Lions can endeavour to pass the ball out of the/before the tackle more in the second test, as it cuts down on refereeing error and breakdown turnover; it may be perceived as high-risk, but surely the risk is higher when it's down to a French ref's interpretation of the breakdown?

In conclusion, has O'Connell been disappointing? Maybe a little, yes. However, the previous second-row captains' lustre has grown beyond measure with success, and the test series isn't half-way through yet. A strong performance in the second test – and hopefully a win – will genuinely put a cap on many of the doubters.

Very few players have been outstanding in the tests, with the exception of Jamie Roberts and Brian O'Driscoll; Tommy Bowe and Jamie Heaslip had been magnificent in the provincial games, but were relatively quiet in the first test [Heaslip moreso than Bowe]. Tom Croft, Mike Phillips and surprisingly, Adam Jones have burnished their reputations to a degree, but each of them still has very appreciable flaws in their respective games. Steven Ferris was well on the way until injury cruelly robbed him of a deserved test spot, and Leigh Byrne, whilst having moments of excellence, hasn't produced the consistent brilliance that many hoped for. Here's hoping they can step up to the mark on Saturday.

[sarah_lennon]

No chance. Boks by 14 points

Last time you tipped a team to win by 14 it was the Saxons against Ireland A. You've filled me with confidence now!

[meinster]

I think that too much has been expected of Paul O'Connell on this tour. That's a very bald statement, so I'll try and explain myself a little better.

Cracking post, fair play. Well made points. Whether or not one agrees is irrelevant; it's great to see quality like that!

[Bogger]

Shaw too big too heavy too slow too old, will give away a tonne of penos and is aknee jerk reaction to the poor performance of Vickery and the Ref Mr. Bryce. DOC can feel hard done by.

Gotta disagree with you there. Even though I've had no time for Shaw in the past, he has performed very well on this tour - in my opinion he is the only Lions forward to consistently get over the gainline. DOC's penalties in the Tuesday game might have come back to haunt him (including the one at the very end)

He'll get milled, just providing the Boks with a big target which is what they love....Shaw will get nackered and start giving penos away, put your mortage on it, Shaw cant get on english side first test in 19 Lions games, I'm delighte for the guy but DOC has been screwed rightly here. Its not a strong pack and no doubt the Boks have the edge here, Lions need parity thats all.

Boks by 10/