ROG.

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Re: ROG is being SCAPEGOATED.

Postby orfeo » June 28th, 2009, 9:35 pm

Oldschool wrote:Just remember it was McGeechan et all who had ROG on the bench with Williams.
Hook and D'Arcy should have been the bench replacements.
just as in the first test, the coach blew it in selection terms.


Exactly, on top of test match intensity there was an additional level of violence at play and it was always going to come down to the bench and McGeechan & Co. got it wrong as they did in the first test. Why blame Rog ? Why not Luke BOD Wallace ?? He seems to be everyone's favourite hate figure, by focusing on ROG we could be missing the real issue,The Lions were clearly the better side in the first half and could have been further in front , the list of injuries to key players thereafter is astonishing and clearly was a concerted halftime decision and one we had no answer for ( do we really want the game to go that way).
The injuries we sustained ensured that even if we had held on for a draw or a win we would have been cannon-fodder in the final test.

Blaming any one individual ,even Rog, is cruel and demeaning to a team that gave us one of the great games without resorting to the level of violence inflicted on them. And this before we even discuss the eye-gouging and the mealy-mouthed defence of it
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Re: ROG.

Postby Turnip Boy » June 29th, 2009, 8:41 am

Danthefan wrote:Retire please.


usual level of guff from Dan - and real classy as well. Should BOD retire as well for creating the dog leg in defense that has allowed Saffer tries in both test matches? Should Tom Croft retire for missing tackles and being handed off several times? should Luke retire for not attempting to make a tackle for the first try on Sat? Should Stephen Jones retire for not making the kicks in the first test?

What ROG did was stupid and cost the team points - no questions but then again most of the things mentioned above also cost points?
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Re: ROG.

Postby Turnip Boy » June 29th, 2009, 8:50 am

hugonaut wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:I don't think he should have been there: either he starts at ten or he's not in the squad. He really looked headf%cked from his first major collision and should probably have been hauled ashore but for the injuries.


Spot on. He offers no coverage anywhere along the backline, and Hook can legitimately play at 10,12 and 15. He looked pretty ropey alright after Spies ran over him, but he seemed to recover well enough when linking down the left hand side in the build up to Jones' penalty.

Actually think I was too harsh on him in my original post as well, just feeling more and more sorry for him now. F*cking nightmare. It's one of the good things about the Lions though: you can support them and really get behind them, but it's not devastating for a month when they lose a big game. It's a bit of a p¡sser for a couple of days, but that's about the guts of it.


People have this idea that hook would have been a better choice. Hook has struggled to control a game and it was his defensive issues that allowed the Emerging Boks to gain a draw. 20/20 hindsight is a great thing but if Stephen Jones was subjected to some of the physical attention that was handed out early in the match and had to go off ROG would be the better choice at 10. Thats not giving ROG credit but shows the terrible state of out halves available to the Lions.
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Re: ROG.

Postby gfo » June 29th, 2009, 9:38 am

Turnip Boy wrote:What ROG did was stupid and cost the team points - no questions but then again most of the things mentioned above also cost points?


no one's denying that mistakes were made across the board. but that had to be the worst game rog ever played, absolute howler.

personally though, i blame the loss on the springboks spanking the lions like schoolgirls in the second half. i'll be worried when ireland play them because ireland will play 80 minutes of rugby, while the saffers are going to continue with their Saturday night in Temple Bar style brawling
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Re: ROG.

Postby munster#1 » June 29th, 2009, 11:39 am

[Jackass] wrote:Oh RO'G, RO'G, RO'G.....

He's getting to be a bigger liability by the day...what a disastor, missed tackle was shocking and penalty was stupid, knock or no knock...let's stop making excuses for the guy...

He's gone, he's past it, and his time is up...his goal kicking and tactical play aren't what they used to be, and his defence has deteriorated beyond belief...He needs to take up net ball or something, but he's too soft and delicate for this level, Sexton needs to step up now and bring some quality back into the Irish setup, which I've no doubt he will, as long as Kidney has the balls to make the call we all know he should.

sure he had a howler after coming on but in fairness to him it it not easy to play concussed and to come on cold into such a phisical high tempo mach it would take any player a few minutes to get into. also you saying that his goal kicking and tactical play are not what they used to be? do you know coming into the game on saturday rog was the top points scorer on the tour and after jones scoring 20 points a record for any lions player against the boks, he is still only 3 points behind. he has only missed 1 kick all tour i think, also did you not watch the match against the southern kings where he kicked the ball into the corner for monye to catch, we would of lost that match for sure without him. what about the match againt royal highveld when he scored 22 points. i'm not saying he doesn't deserve some flak for the way he played on saturday but he doesn't deserve this mindless abuse from fellow irish people. apart from the match against the boks he has had a fairly good tour.
if we were to make every player retire when they have a dip in form BoD would be gone, darcy have finished his rugby career at around 21, kearney could't make the full back position for leinster so he would be gone, speaking as a munster fan i think john hayes would be our only player still playing but then again he was told to retire years ago coz he couldn't scrumage so we would have nobody.
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Re: ROG.

Postby AidanSloan » June 29th, 2009, 11:49 am

gfo wrote:
Turnip Boy wrote:What ROG did was stupid and cost the team points - no questions but then again most of the things mentioned above also cost points?


no one's denying that mistakes were made across the board. but that had to be the worst game rog ever played, absolute howler.

personally though, i blame the loss on the springboks spanking the lions like schoolgirls in the second half. i'll be worried when ireland play them because ireland will play 80 minutes of rugby, while the saffers are going to continue with their Saturday night in Temple Bar style brawling

Not so sure they'll take the Ireland match as seriously. I think they have taken a win at all costs approach to the Lions tour.
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Re: ROG.

Postby jezzer » June 29th, 2009, 12:12 pm

Point 1) I hate O'Gara
Point 2) He contributed to the defeat - he wasn't the architect.
Point 3) If I had to pick out one player who ruined our chances of victory, it'd be Mike Phillips. His delivery was the slowest I have ever seen and his passing accuracy and waywardness of box kicking was criminal.
Point 4) If O'Gara doesn't learn how to tackle (and I just can't see how he will at this stage in his career) his kicking is going to have to be in the 90% accurate area for him to justify - in pure match points terms - his place in the starting lineup. Fans should be able to forgive him his dreadful tackling technique if he keeps slotting the points and can move the backline reasonably well. If and only if.
Point 5) I feel a bit sorry for him. Not a huge amount, just a bit.
Point 6) The Saffers physicality is winning them the series. We're getting swatted around like flies. The Lions are more talented, but in the modern pro game brawn (with some brains) still beats talent 2 out of every three times.
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Re: ROG.

Postby tones » June 29th, 2009, 12:56 pm

suisse wrote:
Oldschool wrote:Ok then spell it out for us.
What exactly is he going to offer in the coming season to Munster and Ireland.
The one restraint I would impose, that you cannot use form that is more than 18 months old.


Another option at fly-half, and, potentially, the only option if Sexton is injured or fails.

We don't produce fly halves like back rows, so when we have one, do you not think we should hold onto him? Like him or loathe him, we have no-one else.



Pretty much, would have thought it was quite obvious.
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Re: ROG.

Postby waguser » June 29th, 2009, 1:10 pm

Having watched ROG drop that goal in Cardiff under huge pressure I am disgusted by some of the abuse he gets.
It is similar to some of the Bullshit thrown at O'Driscoll before this season
I have no issue with fair criticism but I think that people should remember that he raised the bar for Irish outhalves.
He has been a lynchpin in the Irish and Munster team for the last Decade when Irish rugby delivered more than we could imagine 12 or 20 years ago.

So fair enough to question and debate his performances , but to take an opportunity of him giving away a penalty at the end of a tough tough contest to dismiss his entire career out of hand is just petty parochialism.

He has good days and bad days, but in my view he deserves every bit of respect for his achievements and some fine performances for Munser and Ireland.
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Re: ROG.

Postby BlueBlue » June 29th, 2009, 1:45 pm

I'm not a big fan, and I have never rated him as a great player.

But lay off him for god sake. He's made a mistake. Players do that.
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Re: ROG.

Postby Isaac4leinster » June 29th, 2009, 1:51 pm

munster#1 wrote:
[Jackass] wrote:Oh RO'G, RO'G, RO'G.....

He's getting to be a bigger liability by the day...what a disastor, missed tackle was shocking and penalty was stupid, knock or no knock...let's stop making excuses for the guy...

He's gone, he's past it, and his time is up...his goal kicking and tactical play aren't what they used to be, and his defence has deteriorated beyond belief...He needs to take up net ball or something, but he's too soft and delicate for this level, Sexton needs to step up now and bring some quality back into the Irish setup, which I've no doubt he will, as long as Kidney has the balls to make the call we all know he should.

sure he had a howler after coming on but in fairness to him it it not easy to play concussed and to come on cold into such a phisical high tempo mach it would take any player a few minutes to get into. also you saying that his goal kicking and tactical play are not what they used to be? do you know coming into the game on saturday rog was the top points scorer on the tour and after jones scoring 20 points a record for any lions player against the boks, he is still only 3 points behind. he has only missed 1 kick all tour i think, also did you not watch the match against the southern kings where he kicked the ball into the corner for monye to catch, we would of lost that match for sure without him. what about the match againt royal highveld when he scored 22 points. i'm not saying he doesn't deserve some flak for the way he played on saturday but he doesn't deserve this mindless abuse from fellow irish people. apart from the match against the boks he has had a fairly good tour.
if we were to make every player retire when they have a dip in form BoD would be gone, darcy have finished his rugby career at around 21, kearney could't make the full back position for leinster so he would be gone, speaking as a munster fan i think john hayes would be our only player still playing but then again he was told to retire years ago coz he couldn't scrumage so we would have nobody.


Could people please stop comparing BOD's (apparent) drop in form to ROG generally bi-polar form over the last three years?

Drico's 'poor form' consisted of him playing less exceptionally then his frankly quite staggeringly high level of performance over the course of nearly a decade. His 'poor form' which lasted less than a year saw him not scoring
as many breath taking tries but still being extremely sound in defence. Most professional players would kill to have BOD's poor form.
And who was calling for Drico to be dropped? No one I ever talked to.

ROG's form has been up and down like a dock yard whore. Please try to have a bit of perspective.
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Re: ROG.

Postby munster#1 » June 29th, 2009, 3:14 pm

Isaac4leinster wrote:
munster#1 wrote:
[Jackass] wrote:Oh RO'G, RO'G, RO'G.....

He's getting to be a bigger liability by the day...what a disastor, missed tackle was shocking and penalty was stupid, knock or no knock...let's stop making excuses for the guy...

He's gone, he's past it, and his time is up...his goal kicking and tactical play aren't what they used to be, and his defence has deteriorated beyond belief...He needs to take up net ball or something, but he's too soft and delicate for this level, Sexton needs to step up now and bring some quality back into the Irish setup, which I've no doubt he will, as long as Kidney has the balls to make the call we all know he should.

sure he had a howler after coming on but in fairness to him it it not easy to play concussed and to come on cold into such a phisical high tempo mach it would take any player a few minutes to get into. also you saying that his goal kicking and tactical play are not what they used to be? do you know coming into the game on saturday rog was the top points scorer on the tour and after jones scoring 20 points a record for any lions player against the boks, he is still only 3 points behind. he has only missed 1 kick all tour i think, also did you not watch the match against the southern kings where he kicked the ball into the corner for monye to catch, we would of lost that match for sure without him. what about the match againt royal highveld when he scored 22 points. i'm not saying he doesn't deserve some flak for the way he played on saturday but he doesn't deserve this mindless abuse from fellow irish people. apart from the match against the boks he has had a fairly good tour.
if we were to make every player retire when they have a dip in form BoD would be gone, darcy have finished his rugby career at around 21, kearney could't make the full back position for leinster so he would be gone, speaking as a munster fan i think john hayes would be our only player still playing but then again he was told to retire years ago coz he couldn't scrumage so we would have nobody.


Could people please stop comparing BOD's (apparent) drop in form to ROG generally bi-polar form over the last three years?

Drico's 'poor form' consisted of him playing less exceptionally then his frankly quite staggeringly high level of performance over the course of nearly a decade. His 'poor form' which lasted less than a year saw him not scoring
as many breath taking tries but still being extremely sound in defence. Most professional players would kill to have BOD's poor form.
And who was calling for Drico to be dropped? No one I ever talked to.

ROG's form has been up and down like a dock yard whore. Please try to have a bit of perspective.

saying it's over the last 3 years is very harsh and untrue. ROG has been top points scorer in the 6 nations 2 of the past 3 years, in 2008 been beaten by mr wilkinson by 2 points, sure some of his kicking this year was below his standards but still above nearly every other international out half. i'm not saying he is the best player in the world but i am glad we have him without his ability to marshal the backs in the 6 nations we would not have a grand slam.
in the last 3 years he has become top points scorer of all time in the 6 nations and heineken cup, co captained munster to win the heineken cup in 2008, been top points scorer in the 6 nations twice won the magners league. he has been playing to the same standard he always has, he was never able to tackle this is not a new problem but despite this he is the most succesful irish rugby player of all time not the best but by far the most succesful
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Re: ROG.

Postby greengiant » June 29th, 2009, 5:26 pm

Anyone think its time to park this debate? Its not like anyone from the Support or Kill ROG sides is going to have a "eureka" moment and change their mind about him. However, the debate may come up again if the Lions win the 3rd Test :|

If not, do carry on
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Re: ROG.

Postby RoboProp » June 29th, 2009, 5:37 pm

I've never been ROG's biggest fan, but I think the level of criticism being aimed at him is a bit much. I think one of the biggest contributing factors to the defeat was the introduction of the uncontested scrums when Jenkins and Jones came off. The Saffers had more swagger about them after that, they were getting mullered in the scrum. The scrum was being used as a good attacking platform by the Lions. Once it was gone the Saffers were back into the game all guns blazing as their moxie was restored.
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Re: ROG.

Postby Terraceman » June 29th, 2009, 5:53 pm

RoboProp wrote:I've never been ROG's biggest fan, but I think the level of criticism being aimed at him is a bit much. I think one of the biggest contributing factors to the defeat was the introduction of the uncontested scrums when Jenkins and Jones came off. The Saffers had more swagger about them after that, they were getting mullered in the scrum. The scrum was being used as a good attacking platform by the Lions. Once it was gone the Saffers were back into the game all guns blazing as their moxie was restored.


True the lions were in control until the scrum's went uncontested but I think even the biggest Ronan O'Gara fan would have to admit that O'Gara was at fault for the try and the penalty. Most people who have posted here are frustrated, no one is getting personal or vicious, his ability to tackle has been questioned as was his decision to kick the up and under in the dying moments(although it actually was a very good up and under his problem was he didn't jump.)
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Re: ROG.

Postby Xanthippe » June 29th, 2009, 6:53 pm

hugonaut wrote:You could argue that if he kicked into touch, the Boks would have won the lineout, but they still would have had a lot to do to get themselves into a scoring position in thirty seconds


Funny thing is that you could make the same argument about the kick Super Rob had with the clock at 79 minutes and 8 seconds yet no one here has mentioned it even once!!

Just looked at the match again to confirm what I thought happened and at 79:08 Kearney picked up the ball after Steyn's attempted drop goal, kicked for the corner and missed. Steyn picked up and kicked back to ROG and the rest, as they say, is history. If only Rob's kick had made touch - probably the only thing he did all day that didn't turn out prerfectly.
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Re: ROG.

Postby Give us a swerve Girve » June 29th, 2009, 7:38 pm

But a kick to touch was the right call, and only a bounce cost him. ROG was the wrong kick tactically and he followed it with an absolutely stupid challenge.
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Re: ROG.

Postby gfo » June 29th, 2009, 7:46 pm

munster#1 wrote:if we were to make every player retire when they have a dip in form... john hayes would be our only player


because he'd be too fat to leave the pitch. did you see the man play in 03/04?
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Re: ROG.

Postby tones » June 29th, 2009, 8:40 pm

Give us a swerve Girve wrote:But a kick to touch was the right call, and only a bounce cost him. ROG was the wrong kick tactically and he followed it with an absolutely stupid challenge.


Yeah was thinking the same thing. Still though. the3 main problem with Saturday came from poor selection for the 2nd week in a row. There was a distinct lack of versatility on the bench which severely limited or options.
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Re: ROG.

Postby munster#1 » June 29th, 2009, 8:54 pm

gfo wrote:
munster#1 wrote:if we were to make every player retire when they have a dip in form... john hayes would be our only player


because he'd be too fat to leave the pitch. did you see the man play in 03/04?

come on buddy what is that about? as props went in 2003/2004 hayes probably had the lowest body fat count of any international prop he was actually smaller than he is today. he has probably played more minutes of rugby than any other prop in the world if not any player, there has never been an irish forward who has had such a high work rate. please don't bad mouth the bull he is an absolute legend, especially when it is untrue.
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