Ireland v. England

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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby munster#1 » March 20th, 2017, 10:13 pm

FLIP wrote:Turnovers are included in lineouts won.

They appear to have missed one of his takes so.
In fairness this is better than what it was, but now Sexton has taken one, and CJ is no longer listed.

Edit: Please note that they also fail to list Henderson as taking any ball. So going off those stats, only 2 forwards and one back won a lineout.

All this talk of 3 jumpers is rubbish :wink:
Last edited by munster#1 on March 20th, 2017, 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby ronk » March 20th, 2017, 10:14 pm

Sexton threw a quick line out to himself. They all count
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby fourthirtythree » March 20th, 2017, 10:17 pm

I frequently mistake the two of them and so credit one of hem with doing the work of two.

Eddie was so busy saying I told you so that he failed to discuss England's failure to compete on our line outs. Which if you want to be credible in you analysis needs discussing.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby Oldschool » March 20th, 2017, 10:26 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:I frequently mistake the two of them and so credit one of hem with doing the work of two.

Eddie was so busy saying I told you so that he failed to discuss England's failure to compete on our line outs. Which if you want to be credible in you analysis needs discussing.

Baby McGrath barely got a mention.
Can you imagine the clamour if one of the more established players had made "that" kick.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby paddyor » March 20th, 2017, 10:59 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:I frequently mistake the two of them and so credit one of hem with doing the work of two.

Eddie was so busy saying I told you so that he failed to discuss England's failure to compete on our line outs. Which if you want to be credible in you analysis needs discussing.

I think they trusted their defense enough to let us have quick ball off the top if they could just stop or disrupt our maul. It could be that they were expecting Toner and figured we'd use him non-stop so best just to set the counter maul. It was odd that they didn't even try when we were in defensive positions which seems like a free pass.

Overall I thought they did more to disrupt our set piece ball (incl. Scrums) and got more yards out of it (incl thru penalties) but we beat them on the scoreboard 7-3. Think that comes down to field position. We kept them the hell out of our 22 for most of the game.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby Fireworks » March 20th, 2017, 11:11 pm

wixfjord wrote:That last POM lineout steal was from a Toner life. That combo is a super defensive lineout option if we have those two on the pitch at the same time.


Thank you for mentioning that. While POM did great you cannot ignore the benefit of having Toner lift him for that one.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby munster#1 » March 20th, 2017, 11:39 pm

Fireworks wrote:
wixfjord wrote:That last POM lineout steal was from a Toner life. That combo is a super defensive lineout option if we have those two on the pitch at the same time.


Thank you for mentioning that. While POM did great you cannot ignore the benefit of having Toner lift him for that one.

It is always a great benefit to have a second row used as a lifter, and it's something Munster have done to great effect with POM for years.

it is worth watching that steal again. Toner would not have been massively proud of that lift.
Toners hands slip up to POM's back at the top of the jump, meaning he lost a good few inches when locking out.
It didn't make a blind bit of difference, but it was not a great lift.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby FLIP » March 21st, 2017, 12:05 am

munster#1 wrote:
Fireworks wrote:
wixfjord wrote:That last POM lineout steal was from a Toner life. That combo is a super defensive lineout option if we have those two on the pitch at the same time.


Thank you for mentioning that. While POM did great you cannot ignore the benefit of having Toner lift him for that one.

It is always a great benefit to have a second row used as a lifter, and it's something Munster have done to great effect with POM for years.

it is worth watching that steal again. Toner would not have been massively proud of that lift.
Toners hands slip up to POM's back at the top of the jump, meaning he lost a good few inches when locking out.
It didn't make a blind bit of difference, but it was not a great lift.


Speed of lift is more important than an extra few inches in that case, especially given that Toner makes up those extra few inches regardless.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby ronk » March 21st, 2017, 12:10 am

At the front it's more about fast and across rather than straight up. If we're thinking of the same line out Furlong has a great lift from the front but POM's reaction time and leap are excellent.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby Fireworks » March 21st, 2017, 12:21 am

munster#1 wrote:
Fireworks wrote:
wixfjord wrote:That last POM lineout steal was from a Toner life. That combo is a super defensive lineout option if we have those two on the pitch at the same time.


Thank you for mentioning that. While POM did great you cannot ignore the benefit of having Toner lift him for that one.

It is always a great benefit to have a second row used as a lifter, and it's something Munster have done to great effect with POM for years.

it is worth watching that steal again. Toner would not have been massively proud of that lift.
Toners hands slip up to POM's back at the top of the jump, meaning he lost a good few inches when locking out.
It didn't make a blind bit of difference, but it was not a great lift.


Yawn. Broken record.....

POM played well and Toner was instrumental in getting him up there to win that ball. Hayes lifting POC was always a benefit because of his height so I would think that even if the execution was not to your standard that it would help being lifted by Toner.

I am not trying to minimise POM's game in any way but would like to point out how it is a team effort and the hidden stuff is often ignored. Without the lifter there is no steal just as without the reaction time of POM the ball is gone before the challenge can be made.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby Cor. Ind. » March 21st, 2017, 12:24 am

Fireworks wrote:
munster#1 wrote:
Fireworks wrote:It is always a great benefit to have a second row used as a lifter, and it's something Munster have done to great effect with POM for years.

it is worth watching that steal again. Toner would not have been massively proud of that lift.
Toners hands slip up to POM's back at the top of the jump, meaning he lost a good few inches when locking out.
It didn't make a blind bit of difference, but it was not a great lift.


Yawn. Broken record.....

POM played well and Toner was instrumental in getting him up there to win that ball. Hayes lifting POC was always a benefit because of his height so I would think that even if the execution was not to your standard that it would help being lifted by Toner.

I am not trying to minimise POM's game in any way but would like to point out how it is a team effort and the hidden stuff is often ignored. Without the lifter there is no steal just as without the reaction time of POM the ball is gone before the challenge can be made.


Ah, the Bull. Good comparison. Both now ex-Internationals... :lol:
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby paddyor » March 21st, 2017, 12:32 am

I always said that the one thing Itoje is missing from his game is proper lifting technique!

Such bruised egos.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » March 21st, 2017, 11:41 am

ronk wrote:At the front it's more about fast and across rather than straight up. If we're thinking of the same line out Furlong has a great lift from the front but POM's reaction time and leap are excellent.


As Murray Kinsella said on twitter, POM's vertical leap is almost comical.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby simonokeeffe » March 21st, 2017, 12:19 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
ronk wrote:At the front it's more about fast and across rather than straight up. If we're thinking of the same line out Furlong has a great lift from the front but POM's reaction time and leap are excellent.


As Murray Kinsella said on twitter, POM's vertical leap is almost comical.


itd be interesting to know his (boxing) reach too, him and Itoje both haverelatively long McGregor style arms
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby munster#1 » March 21st, 2017, 1:00 pm

Fireworks wrote:
munster#1 wrote:
Fireworks wrote:
Thank you for mentioning that. While POM did great you cannot ignore the benefit of having Toner lift him for that one.

It is always a great benefit to have a second row used as a lifter, and it's something Munster have done to great effect with POM for years.

it is worth watching that steal again. Toner would not have been massively proud of that lift.
Toners hands slip up to POM's back at the top of the jump, meaning he lost a good few inches when locking out.
It didn't make a blind bit of difference, but it was not a great lift.


Yawn. Broken record.....

POM played well and Toner was instrumental in getting him up there to win that ball. Hayes lifting POC was always a benefit because of his height so I would think that even if the execution was not to your standard that it would help being lifted by Toner.

I am not trying to minimise POM's game in any way but would like to point out how it is a team effort and the hidden stuff is often ignored. Without the lifter there is no steal just as without the reaction time of POM the ball is gone before the challenge can be made.


I am not disagreeing that it was a team effort, or that using your tallest players as lifters is a good move.
I am just pointing out that the example you use in relation to Toners lifting is a poor one.

It is clear that POM got up despite that poor lift.
I am not saying that toner is a poor lifter, as I have seen him lift often enough to know that is not true, but on this occasion he will not be gloating.

As mentioned already, Furlong did a very good job, catching POM low, and locking out.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby All Blacks nil » March 27th, 2017, 11:24 am

FLIP wrote:IRFUs stats making quite the statement against the narrative that POM was the saviour of the lineout.

Lineouts Won -

6 Donnacha Ryan
3 Peter O'Mahony
2 CJ Stander

The lineout POM stole with Toner lifting - a trick we've not often seen, but makes lots of sense.

POM has a busy day with a lot of tackles, and a lot of carrying, but the carrying wasn't effective for only a 6m gain.

Backs up my feelings that Ryan should have gotten the plaudits today.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/39314.php


:D
Before you make your mind up, read the stats.
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