6Ns 2019

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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Twist » February 11th, 2019, 1:01 pm

neiliog93 wrote:Irish people and the Irish media have an incredible habit of overhyping France. They have some good individuals and are under-performing relative to their talent levels, fair enough. They could be coached better.

But examples of players who just aren't as good as people say they are include Poirot, Vahamaahina (duuurrr), Parra, Lopez, FIckou, Ntamack (yet) and others. How many would make an Irish team?...Guirado and Picamoles in the starting team and maybe Dupont and Penaud on the bench. Bastareaud would have a shout if we wanted to play a boshing game in the centres.


I was just talking about this yesterday, they seem to loom far too large in our psyche. We draw with them when we should be winning and never beat them comfortably. We dont seem to have a mental block about winning well against England (2007, 2018 for examples) but struggle against far less impressive French teams

If they turn up here next month and play like they did yesterday we should absolutely fillet them, but we probably wont


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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Logorrhea » February 11th, 2019, 1:21 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:they are far better than the sum of their parts right now and should be competitive in every game. Also think their inconsistency shows that they do have talent. I know the results in NZ were poor but they played some great stuff and were really unlucky with the cards they picked up. They were good for large parts against SA and then the first half against Wales too.


Fair enough, but the same could be said for Scotland, Argentina and Australia. The reality is though, when you take away that one great performance (one in every 4 or 5 matches), they do perform consistently bad. Replace the bad coaches and they still perform consistently bad. Swap in players and they perform consistently bad.

I overstated it by calling them shit, but I get a little sick of the hype based credit these French players receive. I've heard commentators saying they look disinterested (mental issues). I've heard them say they aren't playing for the coach (mental issues). I've heard them all talk about systems and coaching (coaching issues), all as if they are great players being held back. Rarely did we hear anyone mention that some of these guys just aren't good enough at this level. They look good for their clubs when supported by some of the best (and most expensive) talent in the world, but without that talent to support them, they look all sorts of meh.

I think that Guirado is the only truly world class player in that team at the moment.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby wixfjord » February 11th, 2019, 1:57 pm

Logorrhea wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:they are far better than the sum of their parts right now and should be competitive in every game. Also think their inconsistency shows that they do have talent. I know the results in NZ were poor but they played some great stuff and were really unlucky with the cards they picked up. They were good for large parts against SA and then the first half against Wales too.


Fair enough, but the same could be said for Scotland, Argentina and Australia. The reality is though, when you take away that one great performance (one in every 4 or 5 matches), they do perform consistently bad. Replace the bad coaches and they still perform consistently bad. Swap in players and they perform consistently bad.

I overstated it by calling them shit, but I get a little sick of the hype based credit these French players receive. I've heard commentators saying they look disinterested (mental issues). I've heard them say they aren't playing for the coach (mental issues). I've heard them all talk about systems and coaching (coaching issues), all as if they are great players being held back. Rarely did we hear anyone mention that some of these guys just aren't good enough at this level. They look good for their clubs when supported by some of the best (and most expensive) talent in the world, but without that talent to support them, they look all sorts of meh.

I think that Guirado is the only truly world class player in that team at the moment.


Yes, and part of the reason they’re consistently bad is because of lack of consistency and poor coaching.
You can’t change half your team every Spring and be coached by dinosaurs and expect to be competitive or consistently winning.
You’ll be torn apart by teams who are uber clear on what they’re trying to do. Like England.

That's not absolving the players of responsibility but as I've said above, of all fan bases Leinster fans should know the value of getting seemingly good players some consistency, a coach who'll whip them into shape and a proper gameplan.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 11th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Logorrhea wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:they are far better than the sum of their parts right now and should be competitive in every game. Also think their inconsistency shows that they do have talent. I know the results in NZ were poor but they played some great stuff and were really unlucky with the cards they picked up. They were good for large parts against SA and then the first half against Wales too.


Fair enough, but the same could be said for Scotland, Argentina and Australia. The reality is though, when you take away that one great performance (one in every 4 or 5 matches), they do perform consistently bad. Replace the bad coaches and they still perform consistently bad. Swap in players and they perform consistently bad.



I think that Guirado is the only truly world class player in that team at the moment.


No it couldn't. Scotland only have two pro teams and have never made the semi finals of the JWC. Argentina have one pro team and have made two JWC semi finals since 2012. Australia last made the semis of the JWC in 2011.

France on the other hand, have the Top14, multiple European cup winners/finalists, won the JWC last year, and have been to three other semi finals since 2011. Look at how well we've done out of our under 21 team that got to the final in 2004, or how much of an impact some of the guys who made it to the final in 2016 have had already. France won the under 21 world cup in 2006, and we won the under 20 grand slam in 2007, but compare how what our players have won since then. The talent is there and has always been there.

Also, I like Guirado but he's been terrible in the last while, the penalty he gave away yesterday was embarrassing.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby harblstuff » February 11th, 2019, 2:36 pm

https://twitter.com/IlltudDafydd/status ... 9472710661

"It was a mess, no-one knew where they were meant to be on the field, we were lost out there, asking the bench for advice"

Ntamack came on and put his hands in the air as if he didn't know where he was even supposed to be playing. Guess that was accurate.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Logorrhea » February 11th, 2019, 2:59 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:No it couldn't. Scotland only have two pro teams and have never made the semi finals of the JWC. Argentina have one pro team and have made two JWC semi finals since 2012. Australia last made the semis of the JWC in 2011.

France on the other hand, have the Top14, multiple European cup winners/finalists, won the JWC last year, and have been to three other semi finals since 2011. Look at how well we've done out of our under 21 team that got to the final in 2004, or how much of an impact some of the guys who made it to the final in 2016 have had already. France won the under 21 world cup in 2006, and we won the under 20 grand slam in 2007, but compare how what our players have won since then. The talent is there and has always been there.

Also, I like Guirado but he's been terrible in the last while, the penalty he gave away yesterday was embarrassing.


Sorry, I'm not sure what point your trying to make. Sure they have quality underage teams. That's a grade below professional club rugby, and only a comparison regarding how good you are compared to other nations underage players. Not sure how it relates. Being good at 20 doesn't mean your going to be able to mix it with real international class players. Look at JJ. I suppose that's part of my point. These French players are more JJ Hanrahan rather than the James Ryan. Everyone has been calling them great players with such potential and then BANG they are 30 having been kind average for most of it.

Look, I get that they could be improved with Joe running the show. But I don't agree that players like Fickou and Fofana will suddenly become these world class centre's defeating all before them. I just don't think they are that good. People talk of these guys (and other capped French players) as if they are great players bursting to get out. They aren't. A good coach would improve them, but they'd still be bang average players playing in a better system.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 11th, 2019, 3:14 pm

My point was fairly obvious and you've only picked out one element of it. It's simple, you can't compare them to Australia, Scotland, or Argentina because those countries don't have the same quality of league (which you ignored), success in Europe/Super Rugby, or the same success at underage level over recent years. We SHOULD expect more from France.

And saying that they aren't world class is pretty annoying, nobody said they should expect that kind of level. But we should expect a far better performance than they showed yesterday or in the second half last week, they have more than enough talent to be competitive in every game they play.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby fourthirtythree » February 11th, 2019, 3:48 pm

Logorrhea wrote: These French players are more JJ Hanrahan rather than the James Ryan. Everyone has been calling them great players with such potential and then BANG they are 30 having been kind average for most of it.

.


One of two players being more JJ Hanrahan rather than James Ryan (or Ian Henderson or Tadhg Furlong to take his froup) is possibly just the players fault. All of them and it's the systems fault.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Logorrhea » February 11th, 2019, 5:59 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:My point was fairly obvious and you've only picked out one element of it. It's simple, you can't compare them to Australia, Scotland, or Argentina because those countries don't have the same quality of league (which you ignored), success in Europe/Super Rugby, or the same success at underage level over recent years. We SHOULD expect more from France.


This is a league system that promotes the success of the club over the success of the nation yet because they have lots of teams with lots of money they should be more successful? Maybe the rule change will help them bring more talent but at the moment they fill their squads with high end foreign internationals and cheap Pacific Islanders and/or Georgians. Toulon won their HEC's on the back of foreign talent, starting 3 or 4 French players in HEC wins. To suggest their success somehow feeds into the national team is daft.

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:And saying that they aren't world class is pretty annoying, nobody said they should expect that kind of level. But we should expect a far better performance than they showed yesterday or in the second half last week, they have more than enough talent to be competitive in every game they play.


I don't think the talent is there and those that do have it will crawl back into their shells when put under pressure. Sure they put in the odd performance, they may even beat us at home and update a few highlight reels in the process (like Fofana from 6 f*cing years ago) but they will just be sh!t again in the next game. Because on average, these guys are shit.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 11th, 2019, 6:27 pm

Funnily enough, I do think that success underage and at club level in a strong league should lead to a competitive national side.

When Toulon played Clermont in the 2015 final 23 of the 46 players were French...and neither of them even won the Top14...Stade Francais did...with 14 Frenchmen in their squad in the final.

I've honestly never been sure if you're a wum or not but I think your posts on this confirm that you are. I repeat, it's clear they have talent, and they should be more competitive than they are.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 11th, 2019, 6:31 pm

And in the 2013 HC final 20 of the 46 were French...and nether of them won the league that year either. Castres did...with 11 French players starting the final.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Logorrhea » February 11th, 2019, 8:29 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I've honestly never been sure if you're a wum or not but I think your posts on this confirm that you are.


Well there goes that discussion.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby wixfjord » February 11th, 2019, 9:07 pm

Of the two French sides into the QF of the Heineken Cup, in their last pool game 28 of the 46 were French.

You've pretty much ignored some fairly logical and sound arguments Logo and stuck to your party line of 'nah they're just shit' which is your prerogative. But it's not a very nuanced argument to say the least!
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby suisse » February 12th, 2019, 1:11 am

Logorrhea wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I've honestly never been sure if you're a wum or not but I think your posts on this confirm that you are.


Well there goes that discussion.


:lol:

This conversation went downhill really quickly. And inexplicably. I never once got the impression you're a wum but for what it's worth, I thoroughly disagree with you on the French players. I think a lot of these players are supremely talented and poor coaching, over a sustained period of time, can make a player turn shit. Matty Williams said yesterday that the players, even with their Top 14 clubs, are not given proper coaching. It sounded like basics such as catching, passing and defending are not really a priority. Didn't Louis Picamoles move to Northampton to become fit?

I'm not sure how he feels about it, but I'd say Conor O'Shea would do a great job as FFR DOR. Not a coaching role, but working with the underage set up (already really successful) and then being a link between the FFR and the LNR. If I were head of French rugby, I'd meet Stu Lancaster with a blank cheque and tell him to bring his own coaching staff. Whatever he wants. (I know neither of these roles will be available to these men. Just my thinking). Ronan O'Gara said yesterday he'd love to get hold of that French backline. I think they're hugely talented, just horribly misguided.

Before England's 4th try (Slade), when out of nowhere 3 England attackers chased a chip and Yohan Huget was nowhere to be seen. I genuinely wonder what was going on. Was Huget told to join a defensive line? Did they do any training with him at 15 all week? It's utterly bizarre and it points to horrendous management.

Jacques Brunel should have resigned after the game. Surely he knows he's doing nothing to help. They're not getting any better and he's eroding whatever confidence there is. He's a f%~king eejit to be blunt.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby ronk » February 12th, 2019, 2:54 am

I'm on the France has loads of talent side. They are copying England's old model of underachieving that they accidentally fixed with Stu. We need to make hay while we can.

JJ is a good example of how a guy with bags of talent can go wrong in the wrong environment. We've had our share too.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Logorrhea » February 12th, 2019, 12:30 pm

suisse wrote:Jacques Brunel should have resigned after the game

I think we are all agreed on that one.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby Oldschool » February 12th, 2019, 3:35 pm

Logorrhea wrote:
suisse wrote:Jacques Brunel should have resigned after the game

I think we are all agreed on that one.

Just so it's not unanimous, I think he should have resigned before the game.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby suisse » February 12th, 2019, 5:14 pm

England are really good etc etc I went for England to win by 14 on Superbru. So, it was unreasonable to expect France to win. There were signs of improvement here and there but the manner of the defeat, combined with a flawed selection policy, the sense that the players don't know what they're doing, where they're supposed to be on the field, that they did no constructive training before the hame, means, to me, that his position is untenable and he should have the balls and the dignity to say I'm not good enough to do this job. I'm out.'

But he's a fool.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby suisse » February 12th, 2019, 5:17 pm

Morgan Para after the game.

I think that we are capable of doing what the English do, but are we working on this during training? I think we don’t work on it enough, even not at all.

Yet these are very simple things that are today part of high-level rugby. We can do this. But do we work on it? No.
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Re: 6Ns 2019

Postby flustered » February 12th, 2019, 5:25 pm

Mako Vunipola out for 10 weeks
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